Making Imperial Israel Whole

[toastman]

P F Tinmore; et al,

Self-determination implies that they exercised the rights of sovereignty.

No it isn't. A state is the product of self determination, not a prerequisite.

Whether Palestine has ever been a state or not (debatable) does not change popular sovereignty under the right to self determination.

(COMMENT)

When did the Palestinian people exercise their own sovereignty?

What is popular sovereignty? When did the Palestinians exercise "popular sovereignty?"

A number of powers exercised rule over Palestine. But over all of them, none were called Palestinians, nor did these various powers ever giver sovereignty to the inhabitants called Palestinians.

Most Respectfully,
R

Irrelevant. It doesn't matter. Israeli propaganda talking point.

A people can be said to have realised its right to self-determination when they have either (1) established a sovereign and independent state;...

There is a recognised right to self-determination in international law. It is controversial whether a positive right to armed struggle to fulfil this right exists. It is clearly illegal under international law to deprive a people of their right to self-determination by using forcible actions including use of violence.

The right to self-determination - IHL

On the contrary, it is Palestinian propaganda to say that the Palestinians had a country that was taken from them, when in fact, they did not.

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore; et al,

Again, I ask the same question (this time using your words).

Irrelevant. It doesn't matter. Israeli propaganda talking point.

(QUESTION)

Prior to 1988, WHEN did the Palestinians established a sovereign and independent state?

Most Respectfully,
R

When could the Palestinians exercise their rights without being under the gun. Which, of course, is illegal.

And of course, you blame Israel for yet another failure of the Palestinians.
Palestinian Propaganda

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore; et al,

Self-determination implies that they exercised the rights of sovereignty.


(COMMENT)

When did the Palestinian people exercise their own sovereignty?

What is popular sovereignty? When did the Palestinians exercise "popular sovereignty?"

A number of powers exercised rule over Palestine. But over all of them, none were called Palestinians, nor did these various powers ever giver sovereignty to the inhabitants called Palestinians.

Most Respectfully,
R

Irrelevant. It doesn't matter. Israeli propaganda talking point.

A people can be said to have realised its right to self-determination when they have either (1) established a sovereign and independent state;...

There is a recognised right to self-determination in international law. It is controversial whether a positive right to armed struggle to fulfil this right exists. It is clearly illegal under international law to deprive a people of their right to self-determination by using forcible actions including use of violence.

The right to self-determination - IHL

On the contrary, it is Palestinian propaganda to say that the Palestinians had a country that was taken from them, when in fact, they did not.

You are arguing an irrelevant point.

And besides, Palestine was called a country 10 times in the mandate document.

 

[toastman]

Irrelevant. It doesn't matter. Israeli propaganda talking point.

On the contrary, it is Palestinian propaganda to say that the Palestinians had a country that was taken from them, when in fact, they did not.

You are arguing an irrelevant point.

And besides, Palestine was called a country 10 times in the mandate document.

Palestine being called a country in a document and Palestine ACTUALLY BEING a country are two different things...

 

[P F Tinmore]

On the contrary, it is Palestinian propaganda to say that the Palestinians had a country that was taken from them, when in fact, they did not.

You are arguing an irrelevant point.

And besides, Palestine was called a country 10 times in the mandate document.

Palestine being called a country in a document and Palestine ACTUALLY BEING a country are two different things...

Interesting.

What would that difference be?

 

[Hossfly]

Irrelevant. It doesn't matter. Israeli propaganda talking point.

On the contrary, it is Palestinian propaganda to say that the Palestinians had a country that was taken from them, when in fact, they did not.

You are arguing an irrelevant point.

And besides, Palestine was called a country 10 times in the mandate document.

Paul, Palestine is now called Ustawuz. Don't confuse the multitude, please.

 

[toastman]

You are arguing an irrelevant point.

And besides, Palestine was called a country 10 times in the mandate document.

Palestine being called a country in a document and Palestine ACTUALLY BEING a country are two different things...

Interesting.

What would that difference be?

The difference being that Palestine was not a country.
BTW, show me the link to where it says Palestine is a country, I want to take a look at it

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Palestine being called a country in a document and Palestine ACTUALLY BEING a country are two different things...

Interesting.

What would that difference be?

The difference being that Palestine was not a country.
BTW, show me the link to where it says Palestine is a country, I want to take a look at it

Going around in circles again. Palestine was the name of a territory. Currently, it's a semi-autonomous region in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Some might call it a country-in-development.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore; et al,

Part of the difference is in the intent demonstrated by an action.

You are arguing an irrelevant point.

And besides, Palestine was called a country 10 times in the mandate document.

Palestine being called a country in a document and Palestine ACTUALLY BEING a country are two different things...

Interesting.

What would that difference be?

(COMMENT)

There are a couple things at are missing.

A state, country or nation has a character to it. One of those characteristics is a demonstrated action, on the part of the people to take control and assume the role of sovereign over the territory. What made the Ottoman Empire the sovereign over Palestine is that they took control and enforced that control. There was no question, for 800 years, that the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire (which included the territory called Palestine) was the undisputed ruler of the land.

For years, I have heard the claim that 650K Jews took the land from 1.5M Arabs, backed by even more Arabs from Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Egypt (or some such nonsense). Yet, in the final analysis, the Jews (the State of Israel) controls a disputed strip of territory.

Now the claim is that the Arab, by the "right to self-determination when they have either (1) established a sovereign and independent state" (P_F Tinmore's Post #116) had an established state. ----> Let's turn that around and say, the Jews, by the "right to self-determination when they have either (1) established a sovereign and independent state" have done just that via UN Resolution, the active defense of the independent state, and successful establishment of a functioning government.

What is the difference between the two claims? The difference is that the outnumbered Jews demonstrated their intention through action and deed. Whereas, the Arab Palestinian did not demonstrate the the "right to self-determination when they have either (1) established a sovereign and independent state" in any affirmative way.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Palestine being called a country in a document and Palestine ACTUALLY BEING a country are two different things...

Interesting.

What would that difference be?

The difference being that Palestine was not a country.
BTW, show me the link to where it says Palestine is a country, I want to take a look at it

Do you have a link (unrelated to Israel) that says that Palestine was not a country?

As I mentioned, Palestine was called a country ten times in the Palestine mandate. Why was it called the Palestine mandate?

Also, ",,, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes." What state were they talking about?

The 1949 armistice agreements mentioned Palestine (not territories, not former mandated) many times. A place called Israel was not mentioned. All of the borders mentioned were the international boundary between Lebanon and Palestine, etc.. There were no borders mentioned for Israel. Land that Israel claims was specifically called Palestine.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore; et al,

Part of the difference is in the intent demonstrated by an action.

Palestine being called a country in a document and Palestine ACTUALLY BEING a country are two different things...

Interesting.

What would that difference be?

(COMMENT)

There are a couple things at are missing.

A state, country or nation has a character to it. One of those characteristics is a demonstrated action, on the part of the people to take control and assume the role of sovereign over the territory. What made the Ottoman Empire the sovereign over Palestine is that they took control and enforced that control. There was no question, for 800 years, that the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire (which included the territory called Palestine) was the undisputed ruler of the land.

For years, I have heard the claim that 650K Jews took the land from 1.5M Arabs, backed by even more Arabs from Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Egypt (or some such nonsense). Yet, in the final analysis, the Jews (the State of Israel) controls a disputed strip of territory.

Now the claim is that the Arab, by the "right to self-determination when they have either (1) established a sovereign and independent state" (P_F Tinmore's Post #116) had an established state. ----> Let's turn that around and say, the Jews, by the "right to self-determination when they have either (1) established a sovereign and independent state" have done just that via UN Resolution, the active defense of the independent state, and successful establishment of a functioning government.

What is the difference between the two claims? The difference is that the outnumbered Jews demonstrated their intention through action and deed. Whereas, the Arab Palestinian did not demonstrate the the "right to self-determination when they have either (1) established a sovereign and independent state" in any affirmative way.

Most Respectfully,
R

A state, country or nation has a character to it. One of those characteristics is a demonstrated action, on the part of the people to take control and assume the role of sovereign over the territory.

They tried to do that all during the mandate period and was illegally trampled by the British who was a world superpower at the time.

 

[toastman]

Interesting.

What would that difference be?

The difference being that Palestine was not a country.
BTW, show me the link to where it says Palestine is a country, I want to take a look at it

Do you have a link (unrelated to Israel) that says that Palestine was not a country?

As I mentioned, Palestine was called a country ten times in the Palestine mandate. Why was it called the Palestine mandate?

Also, ",,, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes." What state were they talking about?

The 1949 armistice agreements mentioned Palestine (not territories, not former mandated) many times. A place called Israel was not mentioned. All of the borders mentioned were the international boundary between Lebanon and Palestine, etc.. There were no borders mentioned for Israel. Land that Israel claims was specifically called Palestine.

Nice deflection.

You said Palestine was called a country in the mandate. You never showed me that link

And your question "Can you prove that Palestine was not a country" is typical of you playing stupid. It is the other way around. Can you prove that Palestine WAS a country??

 

[docmauser1]

Time to liberate Palestine.

Is Crawford county occupied by arabs?

 

[docmauser1]

No it isn't. A state is the product of self determination, not a prerequisite. Whether Palestine has ever been a state or not (debatable) does not change popular sovereignty under the right to self determination.

Well, obviously, among arabs sovereignty was unpopular.

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

Sweet_Caroline, et al,

I think there is a misinterpretation here.

The League of Nations which became the UN voted to grant the land of Judea and Samaria to the Jews in 1922. Therefore it is the Jews' land by legal definition.

(QUESTION)

What are we talking about here?

What vote?

v/r
R

You will find the exact point at 4 mins 10 seconds of this video. I have posted this several times, and you have even acknowledged it Rocco.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubDhnM0MUmY]Howard Grief - EC4I middle east conflict documentary: Give Peace A Chance - YouTube[/ame]

 

[P F Tinmore]

The difference being that Palestine was not a country.
BTW, show me the link to where it says Palestine is a country, I want to take a look at it

Do you have a link (unrelated to Israel) that says that Palestine was not a country?

As I mentioned, Palestine was called a country ten times in the Palestine mandate. Why was it called the Palestine mandate?

Also, ",,, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes." What state were they talking about?

The 1949 armistice agreements mentioned Palestine (not territories, not former mandated) many times. A place called Israel was not mentioned. All of the borders mentioned were the international boundary between Lebanon and Palestine, etc.. There were no borders mentioned for Israel. Land that Israel claims was specifically called Palestine.

Nice deflection.

You said Palestine was called a country in the mandate. You never showed me that link

And your question "Can you prove that Palestine was not a country" is typical of you playing stupid. It is the other way around. Can you prove that Palestine WAS a country??

I'm sorry, you pretend to be an expert so I assumed you had read it or at least could find it on the internet.

The Avalon Project : The Palestine Mandate

Palestine fits the definition of a country.

The Palestinians say it is and they are the only ones who can make that decision.

 

[docmauser1]

I'm sorry, you pretend to be an expert so I assumed you had read it or at least could find it on the internet.
The Avalon Project : The Palestine Mandate
Palestine fits the definition of a country. The Palestinians say it is and they are the only ones who can make that decision.

Palistanians may say whatever drivel they want, of course. So, who was that shakh, emir, sultan, pasha, president, prime-minister of that "country" to back the claim up?

 

[Hoffstra]

Nice deflection.

You said Palestine was called a country in the mandate. You never showed me that link

And your question "Can you prove that Palestine was not a country" is typical of you playing stupid. It is the other way around. Can you prove that Palestine WAS a country??

Czech Republic, Slovakia, Austria, Hungary, Bosnia, Slovenia, Serbia, Croatia, were never countries before WW1.


does that mean their people didn't have a right to their own state?

 

[docmauser1]

Nice deflection. You said Palestine was called a country in the mandate. You never showed me that link. And your question "Can you prove that Palestine was not a country" is typical of you playing stupid. It is the other way around. Can you prove that Palestine WAS a country??

Czech Republic, Slovakia, Austria, Hungary, Bosnia, Slovenia, Serbia, Croatia, were never countries before WW1. does that mean their people didn't have a right to their own state?

Non sequitur.

 

[georgephillip]

Yeah, Georgie Boy felt that he didn't want to be a slave to the White Man so instead of trying to better himself by going to some trade-tech school, a vocational center or a community college at very low cost in Los Angeles, he felt that if he sat back and did nothing, the White Man would have to take care of him. While Georgie Boy thinks he is showing us some "brilliance" by pulling up stuff that he posts ad nausaem, his fellow Blacks are unfortunately being killed in the Middle East and Africa, and all he does is participate on forums dissing America, Israel, and the American citizens who don't have demented thinking like he does. By the way, since you didn't want to be a slave to the White Man, Georgie Boy, and now find yourself in an unfortunate situation where the only fun in life for you are the forums, the Peace Corps is looking for people and you finally get to travel (for free). As they say, "Begin the Journey of a Lifetime." Go to www,PeaceCorps.gov/apply. If Jimmy Carter's mother, Lillian, could do it, so can you, Georgie Boy. We all will be so proud of you.

How about you and me and Lillian hit the road to Ho Chi Minh City, BK?
Don't forget to wear your medals (and Orange stripes)

I realize you would have a difficult time leaving your subsidized apartment, Georgie Boy?? That yellow stripe down your back would make a good target so you stay put. And here I was going to suggest that you take a bus for something FREE this weekend.
Many LA-Area Museums Will be Free Saturday Thanks to Smithsonian Magazine
Up to two free tickets per household are available through an online form on the Smithsonian magazine website.

Read more; squawk less:

"Ideological basis of racism in Israel

“The Talmud states that...two contrary types of souls exist, a non-Jewish soul comes from the Satanic spheres, while the Jewish soul stems from holiness...Rabbi Kook, the Elder, the revered father of the messianic tendency of Jewish fundamentalism said, 'The difference between a Jewish soul and the souls of non-Jews...is greater and deeper than the difference between a human soul and the souls of cattle.’ Israel Shahak and Norton Mezvinsky’s “Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel”

Racism — continued

“Gush Emunim rabbis have continually reiterated that Jews who killed Arabs should not be punished, [e.g.]...Relying on the Code of Maimonides and the Halacha, Rabbi Ariel stated, ‘A Jew who killed a non-Jew is exempt from human judgement and has not violated the [religious] prohibition of murder’..

"The significance here is most striking when the broad support, both direct and indirect, for Gush Emunim is considered.

"About one-half of Israel’s Jewish population supports Gush Emunim.” Israel Shahak and Norton Mezvinsky’s “Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel”

"Jewish fundamentalist rationale for seizing Arab land

“They argue that what appears to be confiscation of Arab owned land for subsequent settlement by Jews is in reality not an act of stealing but one of sanctification.

"From their perspective the land is being redeemed by being transferred from the satanic to the divine sphere...

"To further this process, the use of force is permitted whenever necessary...Halacha permits Jews to rob non-Jews in those locales wherein Jews are stronger than non-Jews.'”

The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict