Loading The Nagasaki Bomb

bitterlyclingin

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The bomb never lived up to expectations, only some 50,000 killed by intial estimates. The first reason given for the faliure to perform was the topography of the valley Nagasaki was located in, the second later reason was the failure to hit the aiming point, Nagasaki was a secondary choice after the primary target was found obscured by clouds, the third reason may be that the bomb was detonated at the wrong height. If this bomb, the last of only two available, had been the only atomic weapon used on Japan, the Japanese would likely have laughed, then said "You've got a hot bomb! So what!" and kept on fighting. They incorrectly guessed at the cards the US held in its hands and surrendered.

Silent Nagasaki | Restricted Data
 

Delta4Embassy

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By the time we used the atomic bombs, Japan was already in the process of trying to surrender. But we made a big deal about "unconditional surrender" so the bombs were like hitting a boxer who's already fallen, but then tries to get back up and dropping a cement mixer on him. Wasn't necessary, but was expediant. It only forced the Japanese to give up on 'conditional surrender.'

As we only learned in teh decades that followed with atmosphereic testing, the altitude you detonate a nuclear weapon determines how effective it is. Too low, or on the ground much of the shockwave is absorbed/lost right into the earth. Too high and the shockwave doesn't inflict maximum damage. The sweet spot depends on the yield.

Aiming points and even low-yield atomic class weapons is kinda laughable. Doesn't matter where it goes off, especially nowadays when so much bad info has everyone wetting themselves at the idea of another being used in anger. Mushroom cloud rising over open ocean with just fish being killed will have the exact same result vaporizing a city will insofar as the panic that'd ensue. Actually hitting any part of the city had the same result an on-target blast woulda. The point wasn't so much to inflict more damage but to bluff them into thinking we had more we could use. The bluff worked, but we'd been making many many more now that we knew we could and how. If the war had dragged on, we'd have had more to use.
 

RetiredGySgt

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By the time we used the atomic bombs, Japan was already in the process of trying to surrender. But we made a big deal about "unconditional surrender" so the bombs were like hitting a boxer who's already fallen, but then tries to get back up and dropping a cement mixer on him. Wasn't necessary, but was expediant. It only forced the Japanese to give up on 'conditional surrender.'

As we only learned in teh decades that followed with atmosphereic testing, the altitude you detonate a nuclear weapon determines how effective it is. Too low, or on the ground much of the shockwave is absorbed/lost right into the earth. Too high and the shockwave doesn't inflict maximum damage. The sweet spot depends on the yield.

Aiming points and even low-yield atomic class weapons is kinda laughable. Doesn't matter where it goes off, especially nowadays when so much bad info has everyone wetting themselves at the idea of another being used in anger. Mushroom cloud rising over open ocean with just fish being killed will have the exact same result vaporizing a city will insofar as the panic that'd ensue. Actually hitting any part of the city had the same result an on-target blast woulda. The point wasn't so much to inflict more damage but to bluff them into thinking we had more we could use. The bluff worked, but we'd been making many many more now that we knew we could and how. If the war had dragged on, we'd have had more to use.
Japan NEVER offered to surrender. What they offered was to return to November 1941 borders. I have source documents that prove this and prove that japan ONLY surrendered because of the 2nd atomic attack when the Emperor intervened against the ruling Government run by the Army. Further those documents prove the Army tried to run a Coup against their living God Emperor to continue the war.

The Atomic Bomb and the End of World War II: A Collection of Primary Sources

Claiming that an offer to return to the November 1941 Borders is an offer to surrender is ridiculous. Further Japan INSISTED that no foreign troops would be allowed in Japan and that they would not disarm.
 

TheOldSchool

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last stop for sanity before reaching the south
They incorrectly guessed at the cards the US held in its hands and surrendered.
This is what I people who hate America for the bombs seem to not understand. How many American lives did the threat of those bombs save? We who were not the aggressors?

That it took more than one should be enough evidence that Japan was not about to surrender.
 

bianco

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Japan was just lucky it wasn't wiped off the face of the earth...for all the horrors it did in WW2.
 

Ringel05

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By the time we used the atomic bombs, Japan was already in the process of trying to surrender. But we made a big deal about "unconditional surrender" so the bombs were like hitting a boxer who's already fallen, but then tries to get back up and dropping a cement mixer on him. Wasn't necessary, but was expediant. It only forced the Japanese to give up on 'conditional surrender.'

As we only learned in teh decades that followed with atmosphereic testing, the altitude you detonate a nuclear weapon determines how effective it is. Too low, or on the ground much of the shockwave is absorbed/lost right into the earth. Too high and the shockwave doesn't inflict maximum damage. The sweet spot depends on the yield.

Aiming points and even low-yield atomic class weapons is kinda laughable. Doesn't matter where it goes off, especially nowadays when so much bad info has everyone wetting themselves at the idea of another being used in anger. Mushroom cloud rising over open ocean with just fish being killed will have the exact same result vaporizing a city will insofar as the panic that'd ensue. Actually hitting any part of the city had the same result an on-target blast woulda. The point wasn't so much to inflict more damage but to bluff them into thinking we had more we could use. The bluff worked, but we'd been making many many more now that we knew we could and how. If the war had dragged on, we'd have had more to use.
History's not your strong suit is it.........
 

whitehall

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Gee, only 50,000 killed in the initial blast. How many died from radioactive poisoning? The dirty little secret is that Japan was a defeated enemy by the time the Bombs were dropped. Truman was a clueless bean counter former senator and crazy elements of the military and the so-called scientific community were dying to test their invention on real people. The winners get to write the history books and propaganda for a half century has convinced Americans that incinerating civilians was a legitimate military strategy.
 

martybegan

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By the time we used the atomic bombs, Japan was already in the process of trying to surrender. But we made a big deal about "unconditional surrender" so the bombs were like hitting a boxer who's already fallen, but then tries to get back up and dropping a cement mixer on him. Wasn't necessary, but was expediant. It only forced the Japanese to give up on 'conditional surrender.'

As we only learned in teh decades that followed with atmosphereic testing, the altitude you detonate a nuclear weapon determines how effective it is. Too low, or on the ground much of the shockwave is absorbed/lost right into the earth. Too high and the shockwave doesn't inflict maximum damage. The sweet spot depends on the yield.

Aiming points and even low-yield atomic class weapons is kinda laughable. Doesn't matter where it goes off, especially nowadays when so much bad info has everyone wetting themselves at the idea of another being used in anger. Mushroom cloud rising over open ocean with just fish being killed will have the exact same result vaporizing a city will insofar as the panic that'd ensue. Actually hitting any part of the city had the same result an on-target blast woulda. The point wasn't so much to inflict more damage but to bluff them into thinking we had more we could use. The bluff worked, but we'd been making many many more now that we knew we could and how. If the war had dragged on, we'd have had more to use.
Japan NEVER offered to surrender. What they offered was to return to November 1941 borders. I have source documents that prove this and prove that japan ONLY surrendered because of the 2nd atomic attack when the Emperor intervened against the ruling Government run by the Army. Further those documents prove the Army tried to run a Coup against their living God Emperor to continue the war.

The Atomic Bomb and the End of World War II: A Collection of Primary Sources

Claiming that an offer to return to the November 1941 Borders is an offer to surrender is ridiculous. Further Japan INSISTED that no foreign troops would be allowed in Japan and that they would not disarm.
Beat me to it. Basically the Civillian politicans wanted out of the war, The Navy new it had been utterly and thoroughly defeated, but the Army was still technically winning in China, and did not see the disaster they were facing. The Army had the most sway in the government, and thus thier conditions, which included no occupation, no loss of territory in China, no disarmament, and any war crimes to be handled by the Japanese themselves were what they wanted. Germany had already surrendered unconditionally so they knew what the Allies wanted, they just chose to ignore it.
 

martybegan

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Gee, only 50,000 killed in the initial blast. How many died from radioactive poisoning? The dirty little secret is that Japan was a defeated enemy by the time the Bombs were dropped. Truman was a clueless bean counter former senator and crazy elements of the military and the so-called scientific community were dying to test their invention on real people. The winners get to write the history books and propaganda for a half century has convinced Americans that incinerating civilians was a legitimate military strategy.
The Japansese Army did not want to surrender. They wanted an armistice and a peace treaty.

That wasn't going to happen.
 

whitehall

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Gee, only 50,000 killed in the initial blast. How many died from radioactive poisoning? The dirty little secret is that Japan was a defeated enemy by the time the Bombs were dropped. Truman was a clueless bean counter former senator and crazy elements of the military and the so-called scientific community were dying to test their invention on real people. The winners get to write the history books and propaganda for a half century has convinced Americans that incinerating civilians was a legitimate military strategy.
The Japansese Army did not want to surrender. They wanted an armistice and a peace treaty.

That wasn't going to happen.
Why are we so clueless about history? Because the mainstream media writes the history books and they have a political agenda? The Japanese were desperate for surrender terms but timid Harry Truman went along with the FDR mandate of unconditional surrender even though the former Missouri clothing store owner had no clue about what "unconditional surrender" entailed. The Japanese were so desperate that they tried to negotiate with the monster Stalin for reasonable terms of surrender while Truman refused to negotiate. The ironic hangup was whether the US would execute the Japanese Emperor and after the Bombs were dropped the MacArthur government preserved the emperor anyway.
 

Ringel05

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Gee, only 50,000 killed in the initial blast. How many died from radioactive poisoning? The dirty little secret is that Japan was a defeated enemy by the time the Bombs were dropped. Truman was a clueless bean counter former senator and crazy elements of the military and the so-called scientific community were dying to test their invention on real people. The winners get to write the history books and propaganda for a half century has convinced Americans that incinerating civilians was a legitimate military strategy.
The Japansese Army did not want to surrender. They wanted an armistice and a peace treaty.

That wasn't going to happen.
Why are we so clueless about history? Because the mainstream media writes the history books and they have a political agenda? The Japanese were desperate for surrender terms but timid Harry Truman went along with the FDR mandate of unconditional surrender even though the former Missouri clothing store owner had no clue about what "unconditional surrender" entailed. The Japanese were so desperate that they tried to negotiate with the monster Stalin for reasonable terms of surrender while Truman refused to negotiate. The ironic hangup was whether the US would execute the Japanese Emperor and after the Bombs were dropped the MacArthur government preserved the emperor anyway.
And some only tell part of the events that transpired while ignoring the rest. For what reason we can only surmise........
Responsible leaders in Japan recognized that their country's bid for Asian hegemony had failed following the loss of Saipan in July 1944. The Tojo cabinet fell and was replaced by a new cabinet under retired general Koiso Kuniaki. The Emperor's chamberlain, Kido, indicated to Foreign Minister Shigemitsu Mamoru that the Emperor wished to find a diplomatic settlement of the war. However, the intransigent Army leadership made it very dangerous for anyone to propose peace, and the war continued to drag on. Japanese leaders were not ready at this point to surrender on terms acceptable to the Allies in any case. Even the "doves" were prepared to hold out for a negotiated surrender under which Japan would remain unoccupied; would retain control of Manchuria, Korea, and Formosa; and would try its own military leaders for war crimes. These terms were very similar to those given Germany under the Versailles Treaty and would have been rejected out of hand by the Americans. The fear of another Versailles is summarized by Frank (1990), who concludes that "these terms would permit, at some later and better moment, Japan's warriors to inculcate a myth that they were never really defeated and only of their own volition laid down arms to spare the world more ravages of war."

On 11 May 1945 the top leaders agreed to seek peace on these terms through the Russians, but the Soviet ambassador was not approached until 3 June. By then it was far too late for a Russian-mediated settlement, as the Russians were preparing to intervene in northeast Asia.

An important if unplanned step towards surrender was the creation by Koiso of the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War. This consisted of the Prime Minister, foreign and service ministers, and service chiefs of staff. Koiso created it out of frustration at being left out of the deliberations of the Imperial General Headquarters, but the effect was to force the service chiefs to keep the civilian government informed of the progress of the war. It would ultimately be this council that would deadlock on the decision to surrender and create an opening for the Emperor to intervene.

The decision to surrender followed three events that made it clear to all but the most die hard Japanese militarists that the war was lost. The first was the destruction of the Japanese merchant marine, which made it impossible for Japan to import enough food to feed its civilian population, let alone maintain military production. This process was essentially complete by mid-1945. The second event was the dropping of nuclear bombs on the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki on 6 and 9 August 1945. The third was the declaration of war by Russia on 9 August, followed by a swift and crushing invasion of Manchuria.

Historians have long debated the importance of these three elements in forcing the surrender, with those philosophically opposed to the nuclear bombings tending to discount their importance relative to the other two elements. However, there are indications that the nuclear attacks made a profound impression on the Emperor, who broke precedent by acting to resolve the deadlock in the Japanese Cabinet in favor of accepting the Allied surrender terms.

These terms were spelled out in the Potsdam Declaration, and amounted to something just short of an unconditional surrender. The Allies insisted on the occupation and complete demilitarization of Japan, but offered vague guarantees not to deindustrialize Japan and to restore Japanese sovereignty at an unspecified future date. The Japanese leadership were divided over whether to accept the terms of the Potsdam Declaration with the sole additional provision that the Imperial House be retained, or to insist that Japan not be occupied, her military not be disbanded, and any war crimes trials be conducted by Japanese courts.

The Russian declaration of war ended Japanese hopes (never realistic in any case) of an alliance with Russia. However, the Japanese Army still believed, not without reason, that they could inflict serious enough casualties when the Allies invaded Japan (Operation DOWNFALL) to force the Allies to the negotiating table. Prime Minister Suzuki even speculated that the Potsdam Declaration was a sign of weakness. However, on 9 August 1945, Suzuki stunned the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War by inviting the Emperor to express his will and resolve their deadlock. The Emperor promptly called on them to accept the Potsdam Declaration with the sole proviso to retain the Imperial House.
See the bolded........

The Japanese military hardliners still held the reins to power until the very end. The Imperial compound was guarded by troops loyal to the military which is why the emperor had to hide his surrender broadcast recording until it could be aired.

The Pacific War Online Encyclopedia: Surrender
 
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GISMYS

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Bottomline = the bomb saved aprox 50,000 american lives!!!and $$$$$$$$$$$
 

whitehall

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Bottomline = the bomb saved aprox 50,000 american lives!!!and $$$$$$$$$$$
Bottom line...The Bomb incinerated tens of thousand Japanese civilians. Harry Truman went on to kill about 50,000 Americans in a futile war in Korea.
 

Votto

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But I though that nations like Syria who used WMD's should have their regimes attacked and overthrown.

What am I missing here?
 

SmedlyButler

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The bomb never lived up to expectations, only some 50,000 killed by intial estimates. The first reason given for the faliure to perform was the topography of the valley Nagasaki was located in, the second later reason was the failure to hit the aiming point, Nagasaki was a secondary choice after the primary target was found obscured by clouds, the third reason may be that the bomb was detonated at the wrong height. If this bomb, the last of only two available, had been the only atomic weapon used on Japan, the Japanese would likely have laughed, then said "You've got a hot bomb! So what!" and kept on fighting. They incorrectly guessed at the cards the US held in its hands and surrendered.

Silent Nagasaki | Restricted Data
0.6 of a gram of matter was turned into energy to achieve this "failure". E=MC2
 

SmedlyButler

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Gee, only 50,000 killed in the initial blast. How many died from radioactive poisoning? The dirty little secret is that Japan was a defeated enemy by the time the Bombs were dropped. Truman was a clueless bean counter former senator and crazy elements of the military and the so-called scientific community were dying to test their invention on real people. The winners get to write the history books and propaganda for a half century has convinced Americans that incinerating civilians was a legitimate military strategy.


Many of the scientists appealed for an un-populated demonstration drop site.
 

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