Liberals: How Do You define What it Means to be a Liberal?

[georgephillip]

If I had to reduce the progressive ideology to a single word, it would probably be "fairness."

But fairness based on what you emotionally reckon is fair.

Is it fair that Bill Gates has been a de facto politician since 1998?

I'm not certain what you mean by de facto politician, but Bill did benefit unfairly by picking relatively wealthy parents.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Liberals: How Do You define What it Means to be a Liberal?

Fair and simple taxes.

Fair and simple regulation.

Transparency in all things politics.

Public budgets that are balanced by law.


I also feel strongly against Gerrymandering, but that's a detail in the transparency line. It's just particularly noteworthy currently.

each one a conservative idea.


just sayin

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Jesus and Stalin were Liberals, as were Einstein and Mao.

 

[bripat9643]

Liberals: How Do You define What it Means to be a Liberal?

Fair and simple taxes.

Fair and simple regulation.

Transparency in all things politics.

Public budgets that are balanced by law.


I also feel strongly against Gerrymandering, but that's a detail in the transparency line. It's just particularly noteworthy currently.

You're serious?

BWHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Liberals don't believe in any of that:

Liberals are the ones who have made the tax code so complicated, and they fight tooth and nail against any attempt to go to a simple consumption based tax like the FAIR tax.

Liberals are the one who just added 80,000 pages to the federal register to implement Obamacare.

The Obama Administration is the least transparent Administration in history. Liberal politiicians lie about everything. You would think they are conservatives when they are running for office. How is that "transparent?"

Liberals have opposed every balanced budget amendment ever proposed.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

I am asking this question very sincerely. Liberals...what does it mean to you personally to be liberal? How do you define your liberal philosophy in personal terms?

I ask this question for several reasons.


1. Many liberals express frustration on this message board that they are misunderstood. When they are criticized, the general response often seems to be "you do not know where I am coming from. You really don't understand liberalism."

2. I have found most Conservatives and Libertarians are very willing to discuss their personal political philosophy. Maybe this is a generalization, but liberals seem very reluctant to get specific about what liberalism is...and what it means to them personally.

3. Maybe if you were more willing to discuss what liberalism means to you personally, there would be greater understanding.

I will speak for myself. I am probably socially left leaning. I support gay rights and gay marriage (neither are any of my business) , I don't like abortion but would not refuse women the right to seek one (again, not directly my business). I am generally very tolerant of different points of view and say live and let live as long as you are not hurting anyone else. So socially I'm probably libertarian/Democrat.

Fiscal issues...Constitutional Rights, Gun Ownership, personal responsibility for your own life, I'm pretty Conservative.

See, that was easy. So you folks who see yourself as liberal...how do you define your beliefs? And please no links to 20 page Das Kapital position papers. This is what you believe.

you sound like a conservative in the making....

Anyone who isn’t a liberal by age 20 has no heart. Anyone who isn’t a conservative by age 40 has no brain.
— Winston Churchill

 

[Billo_Really]

Excellent post.

I don't agree with all of your points....But I I STRONGLY agree that individuals need protection from corporations.

There is way too much freakin' $$ in government.

It's posts like that, which makes me question all the hateful vitriol in many of the threads around here?

What's wrong with saying, "I understand your point, I just don't agree with it."

Argument over!

Posts like yours, are a breath of fresh air.

 

[Pheonixops]

I am asking this question very sincerely. Liberals...what does it mean to you personally to be liberal? How do you define your liberal philosophy in personal terms?

I ask this question for several reasons.


1. Many liberals express frustration on this message board that they are misunderstood. When they are criticized, the general response often seems to be "you do not know where I am coming from. You really don't understand liberalism."

2. I have found most Conservatives and Libertarians are very willing to discuss their personal political philosophy. Maybe this is a generalization, but liberals seem very reluctant to get specific about what liberalism is...and what it means to them personally.

3. Maybe if you were more willing to discuss what liberalism means to you personally, there would be greater understanding.

I will speak for myself. I am probably socially left leaning. I support gay rights and gay marriage (neither are any of my business) , I don't like abortion but would not refuse women the right to seek one (again, not directly my business). I am generally very tolerant of different points of view and say live and let live as long as you are not hurting anyone else. So socially I'm probably libertarian/Democrat.

Fiscal issues...Constitutional Rights, Gun Ownership, personal responsibility for your own life, I'm pretty Conservative.

See, that was easy. So you folks who see yourself as liberal...how do you define your beliefs? And please no links to 20 page Das Kapital position papers. This is what you believe.

I agree with you on number 3, as I am pretty much the same way. The rest of my Liberalism rests on the Constitution (especially the Bill of Rights), I'm basically a Pro-Second Amendment "ACLU type".

On Foreign Policy, my Liberalism is in agreement with many Libertarians.


I am Fiscally Liberal meaning that I do believe in a "safety net" like welfare, unemployment, etc., where I differ with some people is that I think that welfare benefits should be finite and paid back in the form of a low interest, low payment loan after people get back on there feet. I also advocate not cutting the benefits off when someone gets a job and use it as a "bridge" of sorts to get ahead. The reason why I advocate that is that some people lose the incentive to work if the benefits exceed or come close to what they may earn in their new job. I have a post somewhere where I go more in depth about it.
I am in favor of a government run health care program that is VOLUNTARY and contributory, sort of like a large group health plan with affordable rates good basic coverage. If people want better coverage at a higher price they can go private or access those companies from the website (if it ever works).

 

[bripat9643]

But fairness based on what you emotionally reckon is fair.

Is it fair that Bill Gates has been a de facto politician since 1998?

I'm not certain what you mean by de facto politician, but Bill did benefit unfairly by picking relatively wealthy parents.

His parents were in the top 20%, not the top 0.000000000000000000001%. He was no better off than 40 million other kids who's parents were in the same income quintile.

 

[Indeependent]

But fairness based on what you emotionally reckon is fair.

Is it fair that Bill Gates has been a de facto politician since 1998?

I'm not certain what you mean by de facto politician, but Bill did benefit unfairly by picking relatively wealthy parents.

His father was very savvy and taught Bill well in how to legally deprive other people of their creativity and opportunities.

 

[Pheonixops]

I am asking this question very sincerely. Liberals...what does it mean to you personally to be liberal? How do you define your liberal philosophy in personal terms?

I ask this question for several reasons.


1. Many liberals express frustration on this message board that they are misunderstood. When they are criticized, the general response often seems to be "you do not know where I am coming from. You really don't understand liberalism."

2. I have found most Conservatives and Libertarians are very willing to discuss their personal political philosophy. Maybe this is a generalization, but liberals seem very reluctant to get specific about what liberalism is...and what it means to them personally.

3. Maybe if you were more willing to discuss what liberalism means to you personally, there would be greater understanding.

I will speak for myself. I am probably socially left leaning. I support gay rights and gay marriage (neither are any of my business) , I don't like abortion but would not refuse women the right to seek one (again, not directly my business). I am generally very tolerant of different points of view and say live and let live as long as you are not hurting anyone else. So socially I'm probably libertarian/Democrat.

Fiscal issues...Constitutional Rights, Gun Ownership, personal responsibility for your own life, I'm pretty Conservative.

See, that was easy. So you folks who see yourself as liberal...how do you define your beliefs? And please no links to 20 page Das Kapital position papers. This is what you believe.

You see that description of yourself up there?

Imagine for a moment that an honest person described him or herself in that manner. Add some common sense details to the "fiscal issues" tab and a realization that our constitution is a living document.

Then, my nutter friend, you will have discovered a liberal.

Merry Christmas.

Yes that is why the far left wants to do away with document and it would seem that the so called "liberals" or what I call Neo-libs support this action.

So thus your definition of "liberal" does not fit as they would NOT have voted for Obama, Pelosi or Reid and would be openly defiant against them.

Yet they are not, thus proving that (by your definition) Liberals no longer exist.

I don't know who you are referring to specifically on the "Left", but assume that I am "left" of you for a moment. I believe in following the Constitution; what you may think is "Constitutional I may not think is Constitutional, that what the courts are for. For instance, I believe the Constitution to be a "living document" because of the fact that it can be Amended to change with the times. I think that Thomas Jefferson had a similar sentiment, though my sentiments aren't as dramatic as some of the quotes attributed to him regarding the Constitution.

Why would a Liberal vote for the Republican opposition like McCain/Palin? I voted for Obama the first time and Johnson the second time. Of the republicans, I favored Ron Paul and probably would have voted for him over Obama.

 

[Pheonixops]

This entire thread has been an interesting experiment. I think if a thread was started asking Libertarians to define their core beliefs it would go on for pages and pages. Ditto for Conservatives.

You ask Liberals about their core beliefs and there is virtually dead silence. Very strange. Billo is really the only one who took a shot at it.

In a therapy situation this is called planting the flag. If you are willing to plant the flag for what you believe there is generally intellectual thought behind it and a degree of moral certainty. It does not mean the person is always correct, but at least they have the courage of their convictions.

I do encourage Liberal posters to express their political philosophy. Don't be shy. Let folks know what you stand for and why. Maybe you can build some bridges?

It looks like you started the thread during work hours and many Liberals were probably working.

 

[georgephillip]

Is it fair that Bill Gates has been a de facto politician since 1998?

I'm not certain what you mean by de facto politician, but Bill did benefit unfairly by picking relatively wealthy parents.

His parents were in the top 20%, not the top 0.000000000000000000001%. He was no better off than 40 million other kids who's parents were in the same income quintile.

"At 13 he (Bill Gates) enrolled in the Lakeside School, an exclusive preparatory school.[22]

"When he was in the eighth grade, the Mothers Club at the school used proceeds from Lakeside School's rummage sale to buy a Teletype Model 33 ASR terminal and a block of computer time on a General Electric (GE) computer for the school's students.[23]

"Gates took an interest in programming the GE system in BASIC, and was excused from math classes to pursue his interest...."

"After the Mothers Club donation was exhausted, he and other students sought time on systems including DEC PDP minicomputers.

"One of these systems was a PDP-10 belonging to Computer Center Corporation (CCC), which banned four Lakeside students—Gates, Paul Allen, Ric Weiland, and Kent Evans—for the summer after it caught them exploiting bugs in the operating system to obtain free computer time.[25][26]

"At the end of the ban, the four students offered to find bugs in CCC's software in exchange for computer time. Rather than use the system via Teletype, Gates went to CCC's offices and studied source code for various programs that ran on the system, including programs in Fortran, Lisp, and machine language.

"The arrangement with CCC continued until 1970, when the company went out of business.

"The following year, Information Sciences, Inc. hired the four Lakeside students to write a payroll program in Cobol, providing them computer time and royalties. After his administrators became aware of his programming abilities, Gates wrote the school's computer program to schedule students in classes."

By the time Bill and his 1590 SAT made their way to Harvard, he had logged the magical 10,000 hours of programming practice time needed to give himself and Paul Allen the head start they needed to form Microsoft.

Without the wealthy parents, Bill likely doesn't get that head start in programming.

Bill Gates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Pheonixops]

Is Obama a liberal? Or is he something different? Can any liberal on this message board help non-liberals understand. What are your core principles? What do you believe in?

I don't consider him a Liberal. IN my opinion he has more in common with the previous Administration than I do (see the PA, NDAA, foreign policy,etc.) .

 

[georgephillip]

Is it fair that Bill Gates has been a de facto politician since 1998?

I'm not certain what you mean by de facto politician, but Bill did benefit unfairly by picking relatively wealthy parents.

His father was very savvy and taught Bill well in how to legally deprive other people of their creativity and opportunities.

Timing is everything.
Bill was born at the right time and place to take advantage of the computer revolution.
It also seems like he scared the hell out of most of the competitors in the deep end of the shark pool as soon as he jumped in.
Maybe he'll reform?

 

[Indeependent]

I'm not certain what you mean by de facto politician, but Bill did benefit unfairly by picking relatively wealthy parents.

His parents were in the top 20%, not the top 0.000000000000000000001%. He was no better off than 40 million other kids who's parents were in the same income quintile.

"At 13 he (Bill Gates) enrolled in the Lakeside School, an exclusive preparatory school.[22]

"When he was in the eighth grade, the Mothers Club at the school used proceeds from Lakeside School's rummage sale to buy a Teletype Model 33 ASR terminal and a block of computer time on a General Electric (GE) computer for the school's students.[23]

"Gates took an interest in programming the GE system in BASIC, and was excused from math classes to pursue his interest...."

"After the Mothers Club donation was exhausted, he and other students sought time on systems including DEC PDP minicomputers.

"One of these systems was a PDP-10 belonging to Computer Center Corporation (CCC), which banned four Lakeside students—Gates, Paul Allen, Ric Weiland, and Kent Evans—for the summer after it caught them exploiting bugs in the operating system to obtain free computer time.[25][26]

"At the end of the ban, the four students offered to find bugs in CCC's software in exchange for computer time. Rather than use the system via Teletype, Gates went to CCC's offices and studied source code for various programs that ran on the system, including programs in Fortran, Lisp, and machine language.

"The arrangement with CCC continued until 1970, when the company went out of business.

"The following year, Information Sciences, Inc. hired the four Lakeside students to write a payroll program in Cobol, providing them computer time and royalties. After his administrators became aware of his programming abilities, Gates wrote the school's computer program to schedule students in classes."

By the time Bill and his 1590 SAT made their way to Harvard, he had logged the magical 10,000 hours of programming practice time needed to give himself and Paul Allen the head start they needed to form Microsoft.

Without the wealthy parents, Bill likely doesn't get that head start in programming.

Bill Gates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gates got where he is by guile...He's a phenomenal business man.
Why does he spend so much time on Capitol Hill? I didn't elect him.
And now he's trying to do to Attorneys and Accountants what he did to Programmers and Engineers.

 

[Pheonixops]

This entire thread has been an interesting experiment. I think if a thread was started asking Libertarians to define their core beliefs it would go on for pages and pages. Ditto for Conservatives.

You ask Liberals about their core beliefs and there is virtually dead silence. Very strange. Billo is really the only one who took a shot at it.

In a therapy situation this is called planting the flag. If you are willing to plant the flag for what you believe there is generally intellectual thought behind it and a degree of moral certainty. It does not mean the person is always correct, but at least they have the courage of their convictions.

I do encourage Liberal posters to express their political philosophy. Don't be shy. Let folks know what you stand for and why. Maybe you can build some bridges?

Bullshit. I have described my "philosophy" in detail here scores of times. Nutters ignore it and then tell me what I think and feel. Just like you are doing here.

Same here.

 

[rdean]

I am asking this question very sincerely. Liberals...what does it mean to you personally to be liberal? How do you define your liberal philosophy in personal terms?

I ask this question for several reasons.


1. Many liberals express frustration on this message board that they are misunderstood. When they are criticized, the general response often seems to be "you do not know where I am coming from. You really don't understand liberalism."

2. I have found most Conservatives and Libertarians are very willing to discuss their personal political philosophy. Maybe this is a generalization, but liberals seem very reluctant to get specific about what liberalism is...and what it means to them personally.

3. Maybe if you were more willing to discuss what liberalism means to you personally, there would be greater understanding.

I will speak for myself. I am probably socially left leaning. I support gay rights and gay marriage (neither are any of my business) , I don't like abortion but would not refuse women the right to seek one (again, not directly my business). I am generally very tolerant of different points of view and say live and let live as long as you are not hurting anyone else. So socially I'm probably libertarian/Democrat.

Fiscal issues...Constitutional Rights, Gun Ownership, personal responsibility for your own life, I'm pretty Conservative.

See, that was easy. So you folks who see yourself as liberal...how do you define your beliefs? And please no links to 20 page Das Kapital position papers. This is what you believe.

Funny, I've found that most scientists and engineers are liberal. As well as college professors.

I've found that conservatives think science is a faith, evolution a lie and climate change a conspiracy. Conservatives can't take responsibility for a single one of their failed policies. Not for the war they tricked this country in to. They ruin government. Have no policies anyone likes. They even blame policies they passed through reconciliation on Democrats, like the deficit creating Bush tax cuts.

When they hold hostage millions of Americans, like the unemployed, to force the extension their failed tax cuts, they blame the tax cuts on the Democrats for extending them..

The entire rest of the word is scared of them and thinks they are dangerous loons.

Worse, in spite of the damage they cause, they think they are maligned. They refuse to see any side except the one they imagine. They think blacks were better off as "slaves". They think there is a "gay agenda". They feel women belong in the home and women's bodies should be legislated. They fight for the fetus and will turn away from hungry children.

How do we know these things? They tell us. But when we repeat their zany positions or link to them, they call us liars.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Liberals: How Do You define What it Means to be a Liberal?

Fair and simple taxes.

Fair and simple regulation.

Transparency in all things politics.

Public budgets that are balanced by law.


I also feel strongly against Gerrymandering, but that's a detail in the transparency line. It's just particularly noteworthy currently.

each one a conservative idea.


just sayin

Correction: each one a libertarian idea.

Current conservatism is more about pushing the "conservative agenda dijour" which right now is trickle down economics and Christian social morals.

Trust me, if taxes were suddenly 'fair', many would consider it a tax increase - both those at the top who've enjoyed protected favoritism under the guise of 'no tax increases' and those at the bottom who receive much of their welfare under the guise of 'earned income tax credits'.


The conservative agenda in the politics of today is as far from libertarian values of fairness as is the current political agenda on the left. Both seek to protect their campaign benefactors above party and country.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Liberals: How Do You define What it Means to be a Liberal?

Fair and simple taxes.

Fair and simple regulation.

Transparency in all things politics.

Public budgets that are balanced by law.


I also feel strongly against Gerrymandering, but that's a detail in the transparency line. It's just particularly noteworthy currently.

You're serious?

BWHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Liberals don't believe in any of that:

Liberals are the ones who have made the tax code so complicated, and they fight tooth and nail against any attempt to go to a simple consumption based tax like the FAIR tax.

Liberals are the one who just added 80,000 pages to the federal register to implement Obamacare.

The Obama Administration is the least transparent Administration in history. Liberal politiicians lie about everything. You would think they are conservatives when they are running for office. How is that "transparent?"

Liberals have opposed every balanced budget amendment ever proposed.

That's what you get for listening to conservative radio instead of reading a history book, and that's one of the crying shames of modern politics: Most self described 'conservatives' have no fucking clue as to what the definition of 'liberal' actually is.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Obama is no liberal... he's a social democrat.

Since the choice usually boils down to a social democrat and a trickle-down republican, true liberals must vote for the lesser of two evils; and as long as the republicans hold on tight to trickle-down theory, they will always be the more evil of the two.