Let's Drop the Partisan Knee-Jerk Reactions and Look at the Ukraine Negotiations Realistically and Fairly

[Blaster]

Ukraine is no concern of ours. Let the European nations aid them.

 

[Correll]

On one side, we have many conservatives accusing Zelensky of rejecting peace and being unreasonable because he wants a permanent peace deal that includes a security guarantee and because he does not want to cede any territory. On another side, we have many liberals accusing Trump of siding with Putin and selling out Ukraine because he is not agreeing to all of Zelensky's terms. Could a realistic, fair assessment be somewhere between these two extremes?

A unilateral U.S. guarantee of Ukraine's security would be virtually de facto NATO membership. It would obligate us to go to war with Russia if Russia invaded Ukraine again. Any future U.S. military intervention in Ukraine would require us to use some NATO nations as staging areas, just as we're doing now only more so. A NATO guarantee of Ukraine's security would be de facto NATO membership. Putin fiercely rejects either option, especially the latter option, as do most average Russians.

That seems to be asking too much. It is not reasonable to expect the US to fight WWIII over a country that does not impact the global balance of power.

Yet, one certainly cannot blame Zelensky for wanting some kind of credible security guarantee, given Putin's track record of violating agreements.

Agreed.

I am not comfortable with Trump's posturing on Ukraine, especially his idiotic statement that Ukraine started the war. However, I recognize this may be a negotiating tactic to allow Putin to save some face while denying him control of most/all of Ukraine. I certainly hope that's what it is. If Trump truly believes that Ukraine started the war, he is horribly misinformed and is peddling Russian propaganda.

Agreed.

I also recognize that there is strong pro-Russian sentiment in three of Ukraine's eastern provinces (Kharkiv, Luhansk, and Donetsk), and that a peace deal may need to include ceding some territory in those provinces.

Agreed.

A few days ago, Trump told England's prime minister that Putin was willing to agree to a European peacekeeping force in Ukraine as part of a peace deal. If that's true, that could be significant, depending on the size and duration of the peacekeeping force.

Agreed.

I want a peace deal that gives Ukraine long-term independence and that permanently halts Russian interference in Ukraine's internal affairs. I would strongly prefer that Ukraine not be required to cede any territory. However, I could accept ceding some territory in the three eastern provinces if doing so permanently ended Russian efforts to topple Ukraine and gave Ukraine long-term independence.

Sounds good to me.

I think it is too early to be forming firm, final opinions about the Ukraine negotiations. We need details about the various peace-deal proposals. Let's see where the negotiations go and what the final terms end up being.

If Trump does end up selling out Ukraine, I will never cease to criticize him for doing so. I have dear friends in Ukraine. But, if Trump ends up preserving Ukraine's long-term independence and puts an end to Russian interference in Ukraine, I will gladly congratulate him for doing so.

Well said. Let's see how the discussion goes.

 

[berg80]

A NATO guarantee of Ukraine's security would be de facto NATO membership. Putin fiercely rejects either option, especially the latter option, as do most average Russians.

I'm not sure what your source of info is to assert most Russians reject NATO membership for Ukraine, but let's go with it. Assuming it is true, the reason is due to Russian propaganda directed by Putin claiming the NATO alliance is a threat to Russia rather than being a treaty that is DEFENSIVE in nature.
The real reason Putin objects to Ukraine becoming a NATO member is because that status would prevent him from trying to take it by force.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

mikegriffith1 said: Are you seriously, actually saying that America is as bad and predatory as Russia? Really? Seriously?

what I say ldtpk~lxii … It is after yesterday. Take those rose colored glasses off the next time you look at Trump or any Republican, who speaks in public for that matter.

I am on topic. With substance with an historical parallel between MAGA and America First led by Charles Lindbergh.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

That seems to be asking too much. It is not reasonable to expect the US to fight WWIII over a country that does not impact the global balance of power.




Agreed.



Agreed.


Agreed.



Agreed.



Sounds good to me.



Well said. Let's see how the discussion goes.

You are both supporting two imperial powers carving up Ukraine. It’s appalling that you cannot defend Western liberal democracy that is under assault by Russia and has come here in the United States of America through the Republican Party under Trump. Shame on you. Toadies!

 

[mikegriffith1]

He outlawed opposition parties, and suspended elections! You're an uninformed fool. After that post it is impossible for anyone to take you seriously...

Wrong. After the Russian invasion, Zelensky outlawed 11 pro-Russian political parties, for obvious reasons. There are legal opposition parties in Ukraine and they are represented in Ukraine's legislature.

Stop swallowing Russian propaganda and do some serious research.

https://www.axios.com/2022/03/20/ukraine-ban-political-parties-russian-ties

I agree that some of Zelensky's martial-law actions are troubling, but Lincoln imposed a lot of restrictions on the press and even on state governments during the Civil War.

 

[j-mac]

You are both supporting two imperial powers carving up Ukraine. It’s appalling that you cannot defend Western liberal democracy that is under assault by Russia and has come here in the United States of America through the Republican Party under Trump. Shame on you. Toadies!

Not our problem…Z has already lost.

 

[gipper]

I doubt the state of Missouri controls the media
Cause I listen to hard rock only.Russia has invaded several countries next to them and lost, that is their failed empire.

List those countries please.

 

[mikegriffith1]

Here's a great editorial that sets the record straight and provides needed context to Zelensky's martial-law actions:

In pushing for Ukraine elections, Trump is falling into Putin-laid trap to delegitimize Zelenskyy

Ukraine’s leader and opposition leaders have said ‘no’ to elections during wartime – and they have the backing of the majority of Ukrainians.

theconversation.com

 

[Rawley]

As of today, Russia is celebrating and Ukraine is in a panic.

Trump is clearly in Putin’s corner

YOu sound like a moron with that bullshit.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

mikegriffith1 said: Are you seriously, actually saying that America is as bad and predatory as Russia? Really? Seriously?

what I say ldtpk~lxii … It is after yesterday. Take those rose colored glasses off the next time you look at Trump or any Republican, who speaks in public for that matter.

Ukraine is no concern of ours. Let the European nations aid them.

Ok Lindbergher fascist fluffers let me remind you in 1941 Poland and France were no concern of ours.

 

[berg80]

Not our problem…Z has already lost.

Putin would be so happy to see Americans take that attitude.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

How Trump Sold Out America To Putin: Follow The 20 Step Playbook​

Trump has made his top priorities clear: the destruction of America’s government and influence and the preservation of Russia’s.
“Unleashing Elon Musk and his DOGE cadres on the federal government, menacing Canada and European allies, and embracing Vladimir Putin’s wish list for Ukraine and beyond are not unrelated. These moves are all strategic elements of a plan that is familiar to any student of the rise and fall of democracies, especially the “fall” part.

The sequence is painfully familiar to me personally, because I marched in the streets as it played out in Russia at the start of the 21st century. With ruthless consistency, and the tacit approval of Western leaders, Putin and his oligarch supporters used his fair-ishly elected power to make sure that elections in Russia would never matter again.” — Gary Kasparov in The Atlantic

See how Trump is abandoning America’s allies to align with dictators. Gutting American defenses against foreign attacks. Firing America’s top Generals. Freeing Russian criminals and more with this playbook.

Trump’s playbook to sell out America to PutinScreenshot Cowardice disguised as strength: Trump and Vance bully Zelenskyy
“Two guys who would very much like the world to believe that they’re tough gang up on a guy who actually is tough. The two guys are our’s, Donald Trump and JD Vance. The guy they ganged up on is Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who acted like a president while his U.S. counterpart and Trump’s number two acted like children having a tantrum.

Trump and Vance ambushed Zelenskyy in the Oval Office today with the cameras rolling in a shocking display of disrespect. Their shamefully bullying behavior is the latest piece of evidence that Trump and Vance are siding with Vladimir Putin and other dictators over democratic nations like Ukraine.” — American Doom

Support Ukraine
Yale historian Timothy Snyder has some resources to help Ukrainians at his Thinking About newsletter.

Come Back Alive (Ukrainian NGO that supports soldiers on the battlefield and veterans) United 24 (the Ukrainian state platform for donations, with many excellent projects) RAZOM (an American NGO, tax-deductible for US citizens, which cooperates with Ukrainian NGOS to support civilians)Documenting Ukraine (a project that helps to give Ukrainians a voice, also tax-deductible for Americans) Support the work of Tim Mak at the Counteroffensive newsletter

 

[mikegriffith1]

I'm not interested in all the partisan bickering from MAGA and TDS folks in this thread. Either Trump can do no wrong or Trump is the devil.

So, getting back to Ukraine. Yes, with his country being invaded and with a pro-Russian minority among his population, Zelensky has had to impose restrictions that we Americans find distasteful.

Look what Lincoln and the Republicans did during the Civil War. Lincoln prorogued two state legislatures, which effectively cancelled the results of the 1862 elections in those states after the majority of voters in those states elected anti-war majorities in their legislatures. Lincoln shut down dozens of newspapers and jailed numerous newspaper editors. He suspended the writ of habeas corpus. In the 1864 election, Republicans engaged in widespread voter suppression and manipulation, although Lincoln probably would have won without those actions.

Why don't we compare Ukraine's pre-invasion democracy with Putin's brutal dictatorship? There's no comparison. Ukraine had a vibrant free press, strong opposition parties, freedom of religion, freedom of association, and freedom of speech.

 

[scruffy]

I am on topic. With substance with an historical parallel between MAGA and America First led by Charles Lindbergh.

You're an idiot.

You weren't even born when that happened.

Shut up and go away.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

You weren't even born when that happened.

I was not born when the US Constitution happened either. So what’s your point?

 

[whutTHEYsay]

I'm not interested in all the partisan bickering from MAGA and TDS folks in this thread.

Same here.

Ukrainians are suffering under Russian aggression. They do not have your stupid TDS.

But you are in denial that the Republican Party has sided with the invader which is way more partisan involving the lives of human beings who merely want to live in liberty and freedom and control their own destiny in the model of the United States used to stand for.

It is not partisan bickering to accept reality that Russia invaded Ukraine and has mercilessly killed and kidnapped tens of thousands of innocent people. Your terms to settle this mean means nothing unless your terms come straight and direct and honestly from the Ukrainian people. We should defend them with everything they want and we got until they get their terms.

 

[scruffy]

We should defend them with everything they want and we got until they get their terms.

You're a complete fucking idiot.

Zelensky has already lost. There's not a damn thing you or I or anyone else can do about it.

It's totally fucking idiotic to continue that war in any way shape or form. Ukraine can't win, even with billions more dollars in US or European weaponry. And if you bring in NATO you're talking WW3.

Best thing Zelensky can do is sue for peace.

End of story.

 

[Mac1958]

I'm not interested in all the partisan bickering from MAGA and TDS folks in this thread. Either Trump can do no wrong or Trump is the devil.

So, getting back to Ukraine. Yes, with his country being invaded and with a pro-Russian minority among his population, Zelensky has had to impose restrictions that we Americans find distasteful.

Look what Lincoln and the Republicans did during the Civil War. Lincoln prorogued two state legislatures, which effectively cancelled the results of the 1862 elections in those states after the majority of voters in those states elected anti-war majorities in their legislatures. Lincoln shut down dozens of newspapers and jailed numerous newspaper editors. He suspended the writ of habeas corpus. In the 1864 election, Republicans engaged in widespread voter suppression and manipulation, although Lincoln probably would have won without those actions.

Why don't we compare Ukraine's pre-invasion democracy with Putin's brutal dictatorship? There's no comparison. Ukraine had a vibrant free press, strong opposition parties, freedom of religion, freedom of association, and freedom of speech.

There's no way to know what Europe is going to be able to do here. I know they want to be able to take this on now, but I'm doubtful that they can.

So if I had to bet, and I sure don't, I'd bet that Zelensky will have to capitulate to the American Mafia. Of course, that will make things worse with Trump, Zelensky will have to give up a ton, but hopefully it will motivate Europe to ramp up so they can rid themselves of us once and for all.

 

[Couchpotato]

Russia.

The US only has Iraq and Afghanistan on the list. Russia has more. Just recently, we've seen Syria, Transnitria/Moldava, Georgia, Chechnya, Belarus.

Belarus wasn't invaded by the Russians. Chechnya is a republic of Russia it's not an independent state. Transnistria is part of the Ukraine war. As far as I know Russia was invited by Assad into Syria. I don't think you can call it an invasion if the leader of that country has invited you in. By that logic has the US invaded and occupied Germany, Japan, Cuba, South Korea, etc. we have 128 bases outside the US borders are those all invasion/occupying forces?

Go back a little more, we can add Afghanistan, Hungary, Czechoslovakia.

Russia's record is worse than the US record. And the US hasn't done it since invading Iraq, while Russia's imperialism has accelerated recently.

Syria, Yemen. We over threw governments in Egypt, Libya, Ukraine, Georgia. That's just the European/NA list. We occupied Iraq and Afghanistan for over 20 years. You're fooling yourself if you think the US isn't far more involved in overthrowing Governments than Russia. We are an empire. Russia is a regional power. It's estimated the CIA has overthrown 50 governments since WW2 ended via the color revolutions we've admitted to 7 of them.