Let's Drop the Partisan Knee-Jerk Reactions and Look at the Ukraine Negotiations Realistically and Fairly

[pknopp]

Do you think that Chinese money is better under Trump than under Biden? Since both have given Ukraine a lot of money and weapons.

As I've said many times, neither are or were capable of being president.

That noted, you asked a question, I simply replied with the answer.

 

[gipper]

I support Israel AND Ukraine. I want both wars to end and I never want even one innocent civilian to perish in them.

Why do you want war to continue while China sits back, watches and waits?

Lol. Dumb as always.

As you well know, I oppose all war. You support Israel’s genocide. We couldn’t be anymore different.

 

[rightwinger]

So far the only sell out has been the misuse of American taxpayer money by the corrupt Ukrainian government. If freedom and Independence was truly their primary goal that maybe they shouldn't have grifted more than 50% of the weapons and money given to them.

The overwhelming majority of what we gave Ukraine was military and humanitarian equipment.

Yes, that equipment was used to defend Ukraine and keep Russia at bay.

Your “grifting” claims are right out of Putin

 

[Moonglow]

As I've said many times, neither are or were capable of being president.

That noted, you asked a question, I simply replied with the answer.

I am aware, and thanked yous. I have no problem with helping nations from being over ran by empire seeking countries,

 

[rightwinger]

Trump is five steps ahead of you leftwingers. He appears tough on Zelensky and easy on Putin, but notice he isn't giving Russia anything. In the end, Trump will have achieved peace. He knows exactly what he's doing. This is why he is the top negotiator in the world. It's why he was elected president three times despite a hostile media.

As of today, Russia is celebrating and Ukraine is in a panic.

Trump is clearly in Putin’s corner

 

[Moonglow]

The overwhelming majority of what we gave Ukraine was military and humanitarian equipment.

Yes, that equipment was used to defend Ukraine and keep Russia at bay.

Your “grifting” claims are right out of Putin

And Pootin's vice president, Vance.

 

[pknopp]

The overwhelming majority of what we gave Ukraine was military and humanitarian equipment.

Yes, that equipment was used to defend Ukraine and keep Russia at bay.

Your “grifting” claims are right out of Putin

None of which would have ever been necessary if we had simply stayed out of the equation completely.

The war only happened because we backed Ukraine joining NATO and being willing to fund the war.

 

[Moonglow]

As of today, Russia is celebrating and Ukraine is in a panic.

Trump is clearly in Putin’s corner

Pootin offered him precious minerals in Ukraine's occupied areas.

 

[gipper]

I am aware, and thanked yous. I have no problem with helping nations from being over ran by empire seeking countries,

Except Russia isn’t an empire nor is it seeking hegemony. There is one empire constantly seeking worldwide hegemony, but somehow Americans can’t identify it.

 

[Vastator]

The difference is that when Russia invades a country….they keep it

We look to establish an independent Democracy as soon as possible

Wrong. The US attempts to create semi-autonomous, supplicant, vassal States that we can use at the time, and in the manner of our own choosing; while doing as little of the heavy lifting as possible when it comes to upkeep, and maintenance.

 

[Vastator]

Holy cow. Ever heard of the Iron Curtain? The Warsaw Pact? Russia invaded and subjugated Eastern Europe during and after WW II, placing some 190 million people under Soviet tyranny. Those nations remained under Soviet domination and exploitation until the Berlin Wall fell in 1989.

Name one nation we "invaded" and then dominated and refused to leave for decades.

Perhaps you should be deported to Russia and get a taste of what tyranny is.

Germany.

 

[gipper]

None of which would have ever been necessary if we had simply stayed out of the equation completely.

The war only happened because we backed Ukraine joining NATO and being willing to fund the war.

You’re debating someone who really believes Russia was unprovoked.

Trying to debate an ignoramus, is always difficult.

 

[Moonglow]

None of which would have ever been necessary if we had simply stayed out of the equation completely.

The war only happened because we backed Ukraine joining NATO and being willing to fund the war.

Think about the number of obligations and commitments that have been broken in the last few years by the Russian Federation: the Conventional Forces in Europe Treaty, the Open Skies Treaty, the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, the Chemical Weapons Convention, the Geneva Conventions, the Convention Against ...Mar 14, 2024

The Russian Federation's Ongoing Aggression Against Ukraine​

 

[Moonglow]

Except Russia isn’t an empire nor is it seeking hegemony. There is one empire constantly seeking worldwide hegemony, but somehow Americans can’t identify it.

The balance of power is at play and always has been in human history. I doubt you'll ever see it any other way.

 

[pknopp]

Think about the number of obligations and commitments that have been broken in the last few years by the Russian Federation:

I'm not trying to defend Russia.

 

[rightwinger]

Wrong. The US attempts to create semi-autonomous, supplicant, vassal States that we can use at the time, and in the manner of our own choosing; while doing as little of the heavy lifting as possible when it comes to upkeep, and maintenance.

Look at what happened when we liberated Kuwait

They have massive oil reserves that we could have claimed as compensation.
We just turned it back to the Kuwaiti people

 

[j-mac]

Except for your beloved nation of Israel. You’d give them everything they want to mass murder anyone they so chose.

Jesus H. Christ! You couldn't even make it past 10 posts before hijacking the topic to Israel....

Look, I am not sure if you are an American or not, but if you are, and considering the contempt for this country you have, maybe you'd be happier elsewhere...

As for your opinions, I don't give a shit, no one does....You're just another narcissistic jack ass in a sea of them...GFY.

 

[Mac1958]

If Trump does end up selling out Ukraine, I will never cease to criticize him for doing so. I have dear friends in Ukraine. But, if Trump ends up preserving Ukraine's long-term independence and puts an end to Russian interference in Ukraine, I will gladly congratulate him for doing so.

Yeah, it needs to be remembered -- even by Americans -- that yesterday's bluster means nothing today. It's a sad fact, but it's true. That's just the way he is, and you can't take anything he says at face value, no matter how loudly he says it.

So this isn't over yet.

 

[j-mac]

Not throwing away billions on stupid wasteful wars while millions in this country are still struggling every day is considered contempt for this country.

I'll never understand that.

So, that makes you not able to stay on topic?

 

[Dragonlady]

On one side, we have many conservatives accusing Zelensky of rejecting peace and being unreasonable because he wants a permanent peace deal that includes a security guarantee and because he does not want to cede any territory. On another side, we have many liberals accusing Trump of siding with Putin and selling out Ukraine because he is not agreeing to all of Zelensky's terms. Could a realistic, fair assessment be somewhere between these two extremes?

A unilateral U.S. guarantee of Ukraine's security would be virtually de facto NATO membership. It would obligate us to go to war with Russia if Russia invaded Ukraine again. Any future U.S. military intervention in Ukraine would require us to use some NATO nations as staging areas, just as we're doing now only more so. A NATO guarantee of Ukraine's security would be de facto NATO membership. Putin fiercely rejects either option, especially the latter option, as do most average Russians.

Yet, one certainly cannot blame Zelensky for wanting some kind of credible security guarantee, given Putin's track record of violating agreements.

I am not comfortable with Trump's posturing on Ukraine, especially his idiotic statement that Ukraine started the war. However, I recognize this may be a negotiating tactic to allow Putin to save some face while denying him control of most/all of Ukraine. I certainly hope that's what it is. If Trump truly believes that Ukraine started the war, he is horribly misinformed and is peddling Russian propaganda.

I also recognize that there is strong pro-Russian sentiment in three of Ukraine's eastern provinces (Kharkiv, Luhansk, and Donetsk), and that a peace deal may need to include ceding some territory in those provinces.

A few days ago, Trump told England's prime minister that Putin was willing to agree to a European peacekeeping force in Ukraine as part of a peace deal. If that's true, that could be significant, depending on the size and duration of the peacekeeping force.

I want a peace deal that gives Ukraine long-term independence and that permanently halts Russian interference in Ukraine's internal affairs. I would strongly prefer that Ukraine not be required to cede any territory. However, I could accept ceding some territory in the three eastern provinces if doing so permanently ended Russian efforts to topple Ukraine and gave Ukraine long-term independence.

I think it is too early to be forming firm, final opinions about the Ukraine negotiations. We need details about the various peace-deal proposals. Let's see where the negotiations go and what the final terms end up being.

If Trump does end up selling out Ukraine, I will never cease to criticize him for doing so. I have dear friends in Ukraine. But, if Trump ends up preserving Ukraine's long-term independence and puts an end to Russian interference in Ukraine, I will gladly congratulate him for doing so.

There are no Ukraine negotiations. There is only Trump demanding that Zelensky surrender to Putin, because "a lot of Russians fought and died for that land".

The question is "What's in this for Trump and the USA?" Why is Trump always surrendering to Putin.

The USA has no trade with Russia. There is no money for US companies to make in Russia because their economy is closed. Foreigners who try to do business in Russia find the government will just take their bank accounts and throw them in jail if they object. See Bill Browder and Sergei Magnitsky.

Home - Bill Browder

Following his explosive New York Times bestseller Red Notice, Bill Browder returns with another gripping thriller chronicling how he became Vladimir Putin’s number one enemy.

www.billbrowder.com

So why is Trump so desperate to screw over your European allies and trading partners, to curry favour with this murderer????