Let's Drop the Partisan Knee-Jerk Reactions and Look at the Ukraine Negotiations Realistically and Fairly

mikegriffith1

Mike Griffith
Joined
Oct 23, 2012
Messages
7,144
Reaction score
4,258
Points
1,085
Location
Virginia
On one side, we have many conservatives accusing Zelensky of rejecting peace and being unreasonable because he wants a permanent peace deal that includes a security guarantee and because he does not want to cede any territory. On another side, we have many liberals accusing Trump of siding with Putin and selling out Ukraine because he is not agreeing to all of Zelensky's terms. Could a realistic, fair assessment be somewhere between these two extremes?

A unilateral U.S. guarantee of Ukraine's security would be virtually de facto NATO membership. It would obligate us to go to war with Russia if Russia invaded Ukraine again. Any future U.S. military intervention in Ukraine would require us to use some NATO nations as staging areas, just as we're doing now only more so. A NATO guarantee of Ukraine's security would be de facto NATO membership. Putin fiercely rejects either option, especially the latter option, as do most average Russians.

Yet, one certainly cannot blame Zelensky for wanting some kind of credible security guarantee, given Putin's track record of violating agreements.

I am not comfortable with Trump's posturing on Ukraine, especially his idiotic statement that Ukraine started the war. However, I recognize this may be a negotiating tactic to allow Putin to save some face while denying him control of most/all of Ukraine. I certainly hope that's what it is. If Trump truly believes that Ukraine started the war, he is horribly misinformed and is peddling Russian propaganda.

I also recognize that there is strong pro-Russian sentiment in three of Ukraine's eastern provinces (Kharkiv, Luhansk, and Donetsk), and that a peace deal may need to include ceding some territory in those provinces.

A few days ago, Trump told England's prime minister that Putin was willing to agree to a European peacekeeping force in Ukraine as part of a peace deal. If that's true, that could be significant, depending on the size and duration of the peacekeeping force.

I want a peace deal that gives Ukraine long-term independence and that permanently halts Russian interference in Ukraine's internal affairs. I would strongly prefer that Ukraine not be required to cede any territory. However, I could accept ceding some territory in the three eastern provinces if doing so permanently ended Russian efforts to topple Ukraine and gave Ukraine long-term independence.

I think it is too early to be forming firm, final opinions about the Ukraine negotiations. We need details about the various peace-deal proposals. Let's see where the negotiations go and what the final terms end up being.

If Trump does end up selling out Ukraine, I will never cease to criticize him for doing so. I have dear friends in Ukraine. But, if Trump ends up preserving Ukraine's long-term independence and puts an end to Russian interference in Ukraine, I will gladly congratulate him for doing so.
 
If Trump does end up selling out Ukraine, I will never cease to criticize him for doing so. I have dear friends in Ukraine. But, if Trump ends up preserving Ukraine's long-term independence and puts an end to Russian interference in Ukraine, I will gladly congratulate him for doing so.
You’re concerned about Russia interfering with it’s neighbor Ukraine, yet the USG interferes with nearly every nation on earth.

Do you see the hypocrisy?
 
You’re concerned about Russia interfering with it’s neighbor Ukraine, yet the USG interferes with nearly every nation on earth. Do you see the hypocrisy?
Are you seriously, actually saying that America is as bad and predatory as Russia? Really? Seriously?
 
Are you seriously, actually saying that America is as bad and predatory as Russia? Really? Seriously?
Lol. Asking such a ridiculous question only proves you’re a fraud. Your just another court historian.

Tell me the number of nations invaded, overthrown, and sanctioned by Russia since the fall of the USSR? Now compare that number to the nations the USG has done this to. What do you see?
 
You’re concerned about Russia interfering with it’s neighbor Ukraine, yet the USG interferes with nearly every nation on earth.

Do you see the hypocrisy?

Killing tens of thousands of civilians. Torturing, raping, and executing women and old people, kidnapping children, is not interfering. It's crimes against humanity.

You have a link to USG doing the same thing?

Do you see the complicity and ignorance? Comrade?
 
Killing tens of thousands of civilians. Torturing, raping, and executing women and old people, kidnapping children, is not interfering. It's crimes against humanity.

You have a link to USG doing the same thing?

Do you see the complicity and ignorance? Comrade?
Lol. You have to be kidding or dumb as a box of rocks.

Do you have any idea the numbers of civilians the US military has killed, tortured, raped since WWII?

No nation is even close.
 
On one side, we have many conservatives accusing Zelensky of rejecting peace and being unreasonable because he wants a permanent peace deal that includes a security guarantee and because he does not want to cede any territory. On another side, we have many liberals accusing Trump of siding with Putin and selling out Ukraine because he is not agreeing to all of Zelensky's terms. Could a realistic, fair assessment be somewhere between these two extremes?

A unilateral U.S. guarantee of Ukraine's security would be virtually de facto NATO membership. It would obligate us to go to war with Russia if Russia invaded Ukraine again. Any future U.S. military intervention in Ukraine would require us to use some NATO nations as staging areas, just as we're doing now only more so. A NATO guarantee of Ukraine's security would be de facto NATO membership. Putin fiercely rejects either option, especially the latter option, as do most average Russians.

Yet, one certainly cannot blame Zelensky for wanting some kind of credible security guarantee, given Putin's track record of violating agreements.

I am not comfortable with Trump's posturing on Ukraine, especially his idiotic statement that Ukraine started the war. However, I recognize this may be a negotiating tactic to allow Putin to save some face while denying him control of most/all of Ukraine. I certainly hope that's what it is. If Trump truly believes that Ukraine started the war, he is horribly misinformed and is peddling Russian propaganda.

I also recognize that there is strong pro-Russian sentiment in three of Ukraine's eastern provinces (Kharkiv, Luhansk, and Donetsk), and that a peace deal may need to include ceding some territory in those provinces.

A few days ago, Trump told England's prime minister that Putin was willing to agree to a European peacekeeping force in Ukraine as part of a peace deal. If that's true, that could be significant, depending on the size and duration of the peacekeeping force.

I want a peace deal that gives Ukraine long-term independence and that permanently halts Russian interference in Ukraine's internal affairs. I would strongly prefer that Ukraine not be required to cede any territory. However, I could accept ceding some territory in the three eastern provinces if doing so permanently ended Russian efforts to topple Ukraine and gave Ukraine long-term independence.

I think it is too early to be forming firm, final opinions about the Ukraine negotiations. We need details about the various peace-deal proposals. Let's see where the negotiations go and what the final terms end up being.

If Trump does end up selling out Ukraine, I will never cease to criticize him for doing so. I have dear friends in Ukraine. But, if Trump ends up preserving Ukraine's long-term independence and puts an end to Russian interference in Ukraine, I will gladly congratulate him for doing so.
At the very worst, Ukraine would have had an economic partner, a long lasting ceasefire or permanent stop to the war and they could have used their new found wealth to purchase more weapons to better prepare for a war in the future, rebuilt, went back to normalcy.

The old saying "beggars can't be choosers" is apt here. He is accustomed to the Dems just handing him cash that they have to borrow from China. Trump is making the hard decisions that a decade from now people are going to say "man I wish someone like Trump was in the W.H".
 
On one side, we have many conservatives accusing Zelensky of rejecting peace and being unreasonable because he wants a permanent peace deal that includes a security guarantee and because he does not want to cede any territory. On another side, we have many liberals accusing Trump of siding with Putin and selling out Ukraine because he is not agreeing to all of Zelensky's terms. Could a realistic, fair assessment be somewhere between these two extremes?

A unilateral U.S. guarantee of Ukraine's security would be virtually de facto NATO membership. It would obligate us to go to war with Russia if Russia invaded Ukraine again. Any future U.S. military intervention in Ukraine would require us to use some NATO nations as staging areas, just as we're doing now only more so. A NATO guarantee of Ukraine's security would be de facto NATO membership. Putin fiercely rejects either option, especially the latter option, as do most average Russians.

Yet, one certainly cannot blame Zelensky for wanting some kind of credible security guarantee, given Putin's track record of violating agreements.

I am not comfortable with Trump's posturing on Ukraine, especially his idiotic statement that Ukraine started the war. However, I recognize this may be a negotiating tactic to allow Putin to save some face while denying him control of most/all of Ukraine. I certainly hope that's what it is. If Trump truly believes that Ukraine started the war, he is horribly misinformed and is peddling Russian propaganda.

I also recognize that there is strong pro-Russian sentiment in three of Ukraine's eastern provinces (Kharkiv, Luhansk, and Donetsk), and that a peace deal may need to include ceding some territory in those provinces.

A few days ago, Trump told England's prime minister that Putin was willing to agree to a European peacekeeping force in Ukraine as part of a peace deal. If that's true, that could be significant, depending on the size and duration of the peacekeeping force.

I want a peace deal that gives Ukraine long-term independence and that permanently halts Russian interference in Ukraine's internal affairs. I would strongly prefer that Ukraine not be required to cede any territory. However, I could accept ceding some territory in the three eastern provinces if doing so permanently ended Russian efforts to topple Ukraine and gave Ukraine long-term independence.

I think it is too early to be forming firm, final opinions about the Ukraine negotiations. We need details about the various peace-deal proposals. Let's see where the negotiations go and what the final terms end up being.

If Trump does end up selling out Ukraine, I will never cease to criticize him for doing so. I have dear friends in Ukraine. But, if Trump ends up preserving Ukraine's long-term independence and puts an end to Russian interference in Ukraine, I will gladly congratulate him for doing so.
You are not Ukraine you have no ability to cede anything, you lost yer neutral position.
 
At the very worst, Ukraine would have had an economic partner, a long lasting ceasefire or permanent stop to the war and they could have used their new found wealth to purchase more weapons to better prepare for a war in the future, rebuilt, went back to normalcy.

The old saying "beggars can't be choosers" is apt here. He is accustomed to the Dems just handing him cash that they have to borrow from China. Trump is making the hard decisions that a decade from now people are going to say "man I wish someone like Trump was in the W.H".
Show us how China loans the US money.
 
On one side, we have many conservatives accusing Zelensky of rejecting peace and being unreasonable because he wants a permanent peace deal that includes a security guarantee and because he does not want to cede any territory. On another side, we have many liberals accusing Trump of siding with Putin and selling out Ukraine because he is not agreeing to all of Zelensky's terms. Could a realistic, fair assessment be somewhere between these two extremes?

A unilateral U.S. guarantee of Ukraine's security would be virtually de facto NATO membership. It would obligate us to go to war with Russia if Russia invaded Ukraine again. Any future U.S. military intervention in Ukraine would require us to use some NATO nations as staging areas, just as we're doing now only more so. A NATO guarantee of Ukraine's security would be de facto NATO membership. Putin fiercely rejects either option, especially the latter option, as do most average Russians.

Yet, one certainly cannot blame Zelensky for wanting some kind of credible security guarantee, given Putin's track record of violating agreements.

I am not comfortable with Trump's posturing on Ukraine, especially his idiotic statement that Ukraine started the war. However, I recognize this may be a negotiating tactic to allow Putin to save some face while denying him control of most/all of Ukraine. I certainly hope that's what it is. If Trump truly believes that Ukraine started the war, he is horribly misinformed and is peddling Russian propaganda.

I also recognize that there is strong pro-Russian sentiment in three of Ukraine's eastern provinces (Kharkiv, Luhansk, and Donetsk), and that a peace deal may need to include ceding some territory in those provinces.

A few days ago, Trump told England's prime minister that Putin was willing to agree to a European peacekeeping force in Ukraine as part of a peace deal. If that's true, that could be significant, depending on the size and duration of the peacekeeping force.

I want a peace deal that gives Ukraine long-term independence and that permanently halts Russian interference in Ukraine's internal affairs. I would strongly prefer that Ukraine not be required to cede any territory. However, I could accept ceding some territory in the three eastern provinces if doing so permanently ended Russian efforts to topple Ukraine and gave Ukraine long-term independence.

I think it is too early to be forming firm, final opinions about the Ukraine negotiations. We need details about the various peace-deal proposals. Let's see where the negotiations go and what the final terms end up being.

If Trump does end up selling out Ukraine, I will never cease to criticize him for doing so. I have dear friends in Ukraine. But, if Trump ends up preserving Ukraine's long-term independence and puts an end to Russian interference in Ukraine, I will gladly congratulate him for doing so.

Trump seems to be trying to be "the art of the deal", but he doesn't realize this isn't business, this is war and international relations, and they don't work in the same way.

He's shown the world how pathetic he can be, inviting a world leader to the White House just to act like some horny teenager who's trying too impress some girl by bullying other people. What?
 
How many countries has Russia invaded, how many regimes toppled, and replaced in the last 50 years? Cool! Now do the United States. Don't worry. We'll wait...
The difference is that when Russia invades a country….they keep it

We look to establish an independent Democracy as soon as possible
 
On one side, we have many conservatives accusing Zelensky of rejecting peace and being unreasonable because he wants a permanent peace deal that includes a security guarantee and because he does not want to cede any territory. On another side, we have many liberals accusing Trump of siding with Putin and selling out Ukraine because he is not agreeing to all of Zelensky's terms. Could a realistic, fair assessment be somewhere between these two extremes?

A unilateral U.S. guarantee of Ukraine's security would be virtually de facto NATO membership. It would obligate us to go to war with Russia if Russia invaded Ukraine again. Any future U.S. military intervention in Ukraine would require us to use some NATO nations as staging areas, just as we're doing now only more so. A NATO guarantee of Ukraine's security would be de facto NATO membership. Putin fiercely rejects either option, especially the latter option, as do most average Russians.

Yet, one certainly cannot blame Zelensky for wanting some kind of credible security guarantee, given Putin's track record of violating agreements.

I am not comfortable with Trump's posturing on Ukraine, especially his idiotic statement that Ukraine started the war. However, I recognize this may be a negotiating tactic to allow Putin to save some face while denying him control of most/all of Ukraine. I certainly hope that's what it is. If Trump truly believes that Ukraine started the war, he is horribly misinformed and is peddling Russian propaganda.

I also recognize that there is strong pro-Russian sentiment in three of Ukraine's eastern provinces (Kharkiv, Luhansk, and Donetsk), and that a peace deal may need to include ceding some territory in those provinces.

A few days ago, Trump told England's prime minister that Putin was willing to agree to a European peacekeeping force in Ukraine as part of a peace deal. If that's true, that could be significant, depending on the size and duration of the peacekeeping force.

I want a peace deal that gives Ukraine long-term independence and that permanently halts Russian interference in Ukraine's internal affairs. I would strongly prefer that Ukraine not be required to cede any territory. However, I could accept ceding some territory in the three eastern provinces if doing so permanently ended Russian efforts to topple Ukraine and gave Ukraine long-term independence.

I think it is too early to be forming firm, final opinions about the Ukraine negotiations. We need details about the various peace-deal proposals. Let's see where the negotiations go and what the final terms end up being.

If Trump does end up selling out Ukraine, I will never cease to criticize him for doing so. I have dear friends in Ukraine. But, if Trump ends up preserving Ukraine's long-term independence and puts an end to Russian interference in Ukraine, I will gladly congratulate him for doing so.

So far the only sell out has been the misuse of American taxpayer money by the corrupt Ukrainian government. If freedom and Independence was truly their primary goal that maybe they shouldn't have grifted more than 50% of the weapons and money given to them.

The Ukrainian government such as it stands now has demonstrated that it can't be trusted. Why the hell should they be given more to do the same with and who the hell do they think they are to be demanding anything from anyone?
 
Last edited:
Are you seriously, actually saying that America is as bad and predatory as Russia? Really? Seriously?

Um, did you follow the recent history of Ukraine?

You think having actual Nazis kill Russian nationals who just voted overwhelmingly to rejoin Russia and cut off fresh water to Crimea was neighborly?
 
How many countries has Russia invaded, how many regimes toppled, and replaced in the last 50 years? Cool! Now do the United States. Don't worry. We'll wait...
Holy cow. Ever heard of the Iron Curtain? The Warsaw Pact? Russia invaded and subjugated Eastern Europe during and after WW II, placing some 190 million people under Soviet tyranny. Those nations remained under Soviet domination and exploitation until the Berlin Wall fell in 1989.

Name one nation we "invaded" and then dominated and refused to leave for decades.

Perhaps you should be deported to Russia and get a taste of what tyranny is.
 
Trump seems to be trying to be "the art of the deal", but he doesn't realize this isn't business, this is war and international relations, and they don't work in the same way.

He's shown the world how pathetic he can be, inviting a world leader to the White House just to act like some horny teenager who's trying too impress some girl by bullying other people. What?
Trump is five steps ahead of you leftwingers. He appears tough on Zelensky and easy on Putin, but notice he isn't giving Russia anything. In the end, Trump will have achieved peace. He knows exactly what he's doing. This is why he is the top negotiator in the world. It's why he was elected president three times despite a hostile media.
 
You’re concerned about Russia interfering with it’s neighbor Ukraine, yet the USG interferes with nearly every nation on earth.

Do you see the hypocrisy?
Beat me to it...
 
Back
Top Bottom