imawhosure
Platinum Member
- Apr 25, 2015
- 10,125
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Litwin and others, want you to believe we should be at the beckoning side of Ukraine...........and maybe we should be............but do you know WHY we are put in this position? Let me explain it to you, then YOU make your own call on it, and there really is no right, or wrong answer-------->
After the former USSR collapsed, Ukraine after it became independent, became the NUMBER 3 NUCLEAR power in the world for a short time. It had nuclear missiles everywhere. In 1994, The Commander and Chief......Bill Clinstone.....cut a deal.........kinda like what he did with North Korea, but that deal with North Korea is a topic for a different thread!
Anyway, Clinstone, the UK, and Russia all guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty, IF they would divest themselves of all those nuclear missiles they had on their land. I never did read if those missiles were dismantled, or they gave them back to Russia, but needless to say the nukes went away........and Ukraine went along its merry way as a free nation. Russia was doing Glasnost and all that other wonderful stuff, so on the surface it appeared, Europe was all good. The US gave the Ukraine a little taxpayer cash to help them along.
And then, along came Putin!
From the time Putin took control of Russia, he knew his country had ZERO/NADA/FORGET ABOUT IT chance to win any sort of conventional war with the West. But he didn't have to IF he convinced the West if they stood against his wishes, he would NUKE them. Americans NEED to understand something---------->Russia is a PAPER TIGER militarily without NUKES, (which is why they have asked China and North Korea for help) which is why EVERY threat they throw at us is NUCLEAR. If they proclaimed they were going to attack us or Europe with conventional weapons, their tanks and troops would get blown off the road and destroyed before they got 10 mls out of Russian territory!
Point for us all is----------> I do NOT know what Trump told Putin......there are many instances on what was/and was not said. But Putin said, nope, not now, bad idea.
And then along came Joe and Kammy! Now that YOU as Americans know, that WE........in other words the USA........guaranteed the INDEPENDENCE of Ukraine, what do YOU think the level of fear Joe and Kammy threw into the Kremlin? Even the UKs commitment has looked relatively weak, has it not.......considering they also signed on as protectors of Ukraine's independence. Do you think if Ukraine was told that if attacked, we would just give them weapons, and not great ones, they would have agreed? They gave up NUKES, and less than 20 years later, they are invaded by the same people that they had won their independence from in the 1st place!
And so, is Ukraine a member of NATO? Not really. They are loosely tied with them, but full membership has eluded them as they did not push hard for it until Russia decided to invade. Therefore, the only tie we have to them is our word to protect their sovereignty; but truth be told, the rest of Europe has a much larger interest in how that war goes than we do. They need to be the ones most concerned as Russia will expand anywhere they can that is NOT in NATO, because under the NATO treaty, an attacked NATO member can claim that "an attack 1 is an attack on all," bringing all NATO nations military to bear.
As an aside for your information, the ONLY country EVER to invoke that clause was the USA after the 9-11 attacks; which is EXACTLY why you had such a large coalition in the Middle East. Had the powers that be unleashed the military to do what it does best at that time, we would NOT be having the problems we are having today! Iran, etc would be no more. This is why most adversaries do NOT like Trump at all, they FEAR him!
And so, the ending point is------------>we had better hope that whatever Trump said to Putin, Xi, and Kim work again in ADMINISTRATION number 2, because the Biden/Harris administration has put this country in a real pickle by what they let happen, while doing nothing to push back but give weapons; and not great ones to boot.
Our leaders really have a choice; a choice you will be debating going forward, which Russians and Middle Eastern adversaries will monitor------------> we either GIVE Ukraine weapons short of nukes that the Kremlin has no answer for believing nobody is dumb enough to use NUKES unless their country is invaded, or let Russia have the Ukraine unless all of Europe massively steps in to protect them. Again, there is no correct or incorrect answer, only moral answers.....which in politics, mean NOTHING!
After the former USSR collapsed, Ukraine after it became independent, became the NUMBER 3 NUCLEAR power in the world for a short time. It had nuclear missiles everywhere. In 1994, The Commander and Chief......Bill Clinstone.....cut a deal.........kinda like what he did with North Korea, but that deal with North Korea is a topic for a different thread!
Anyway, Clinstone, the UK, and Russia all guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty, IF they would divest themselves of all those nuclear missiles they had on their land. I never did read if those missiles were dismantled, or they gave them back to Russia, but needless to say the nukes went away........and Ukraine went along its merry way as a free nation. Russia was doing Glasnost and all that other wonderful stuff, so on the surface it appeared, Europe was all good. The US gave the Ukraine a little taxpayer cash to help them along.
And then, along came Putin!
From the time Putin took control of Russia, he knew his country had ZERO/NADA/FORGET ABOUT IT chance to win any sort of conventional war with the West. But he didn't have to IF he convinced the West if they stood against his wishes, he would NUKE them. Americans NEED to understand something---------->Russia is a PAPER TIGER militarily without NUKES, (which is why they have asked China and North Korea for help) which is why EVERY threat they throw at us is NUCLEAR. If they proclaimed they were going to attack us or Europe with conventional weapons, their tanks and troops would get blown off the road and destroyed before they got 10 mls out of Russian territory!
Point for us all is----------> I do NOT know what Trump told Putin......there are many instances on what was/and was not said. But Putin said, nope, not now, bad idea.
And then along came Joe and Kammy! Now that YOU as Americans know, that WE........in other words the USA........guaranteed the INDEPENDENCE of Ukraine, what do YOU think the level of fear Joe and Kammy threw into the Kremlin? Even the UKs commitment has looked relatively weak, has it not.......considering they also signed on as protectors of Ukraine's independence. Do you think if Ukraine was told that if attacked, we would just give them weapons, and not great ones, they would have agreed? They gave up NUKES, and less than 20 years later, they are invaded by the same people that they had won their independence from in the 1st place!
And so, is Ukraine a member of NATO? Not really. They are loosely tied with them, but full membership has eluded them as they did not push hard for it until Russia decided to invade. Therefore, the only tie we have to them is our word to protect their sovereignty; but truth be told, the rest of Europe has a much larger interest in how that war goes than we do. They need to be the ones most concerned as Russia will expand anywhere they can that is NOT in NATO, because under the NATO treaty, an attacked NATO member can claim that "an attack 1 is an attack on all," bringing all NATO nations military to bear.
As an aside for your information, the ONLY country EVER to invoke that clause was the USA after the 9-11 attacks; which is EXACTLY why you had such a large coalition in the Middle East. Had the powers that be unleashed the military to do what it does best at that time, we would NOT be having the problems we are having today! Iran, etc would be no more. This is why most adversaries do NOT like Trump at all, they FEAR him!
And so, the ending point is------------>we had better hope that whatever Trump said to Putin, Xi, and Kim work again in ADMINISTRATION number 2, because the Biden/Harris administration has put this country in a real pickle by what they let happen, while doing nothing to push back but give weapons; and not great ones to boot.
Our leaders really have a choice; a choice you will be debating going forward, which Russians and Middle Eastern adversaries will monitor------------> we either GIVE Ukraine weapons short of nukes that the Kremlin has no answer for believing nobody is dumb enough to use NUKES unless their country is invaded, or let Russia have the Ukraine unless all of Europe massively steps in to protect them. Again, there is no correct or incorrect answer, only moral answers.....which in politics, mean NOTHING!