Know More Than The Experts? Return To Work and Willingly Accept Your Fate

[WEATHER53]

It’s a soupy rich environment that supports human life. It supports nasty viruses also. This lockdown is bullshit

 

[bripat9643]

Indeed, the "this is just a normal virus crowd" are wallowing in complete and utter self indulgent ignorance.


The final death morality rate of the Spanish Flu rate was 2.5%.

Right now the global mortality rate of those infected this virus in the USA is 5.79%

In some countries higher such as Italy 13.8%, France 14.47% and the UK with 15.8%!

It is a higher death rate per population than those who died in World War Two, which was 3%.

https://www.cebm.net/c…/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

Just in the initial wave.

Now normally I have a lot of tolerance for the ignorant, but in this case they can cause a greater rate of infection, death and social destruction.

With a virus the ignorant can kill.

There is no comparison between the Spanish Flu and China Virus. Spanish Flu killed tens of millions, killed the healthiest people and killed with 24 hours of first symptoms. Go back and review your history. Fail.

I understand the mindset that does not believe anything they do not want to believe, you can be forgiven for that human failing, it is common.

But the data is clear, as above, this virus is killing at a much higher percent per infection than the Spanish flu.

And we are just in the first three months of it.

Now of course the Spanish flu killed more than this virus over all, because this virus has just started and the Spanish Flu went for over a year, without government practising containment measures for the most part.

So sure, if we follow sane and intelligent containment, like Australia, overall this virus will kill fewer people.


That is the entire point.

But at the current infection death rate this virus is clearly more dangerous than the Spanish flu and if you follow the "let me do what ever I want" crowd it will kill more people than the Spanish flu over time.

Let me make the point clear for you, right now we have a death rate globally of about 6% with this virus, the Spanish Flu had 2.5%

The COVID death rate is based upon "confirmed" cases of COVID. Most people who have come down with it, have never been tested but survived. The figure you quote is bullshit.

So basically your argument is there are a lot more people infected than we know off, who can spread it, we really do not know how many people are infected so lets lift the lock downs.

Not really rational now is it? That is an argument to keep lock downs.

Of course all statistics including the death rates of the Spanish flu are based on the number of infections we know of and the number of deaths in relation to that.

With the Spanish Flu too we do not know how many people were actually infected over all, only those who presented symptoms and then the number who died in relation to that.

That is how epidemiology works.

And this virus has a much higher rate of death than the Spanish flu per known infection.

In the case of the Spanish flu, few people were infected who didn't show symptoms. That's how most flu viruses behave. The total number of deaths was 200 million. That's about 200 times the number who have died from COVID-19. Any claim that the death rate for COVID-19 is in the same ballpark are pure moonshine.

The Spanish flu killed that many in a year and a half, we are three months into this one.

Now our infection rates are lower than the Spanish flu right now because unlike during the Spanish flu most of the civilised world have instituted lock downs, but the death rate of this flew per infection is higher than the Spanish flu.

TSpanish Flu 2.5% this virus about 6%.

So with a virus with a higher death rate we are currently, for now doing better than the Spanish flu in infections but not death rates.

With are doing better with infection rates, for now, just three months in, because of the lock downs which largely did not occur during the Spanish Flu.

Indeed, the "this is just a normal virus crowd" are wallowing in complete and utter self indulgent ignorance.


The final death morality rate of the Spanish Flu rate was 2.5%.

Right now the global mortality rate of those infected this virus in the USA is 5.79%

In some countries higher such as Italy 13.8%, France 14.47% and the UK with 15.8%!

It is a higher death rate per population than those who died in World War Two, which was 3%.

https://www.cebm.net/c…/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

Just in the initial wave.

Now normally I have a lot of tolerance for the ignorant, but in this case they can cause a greater rate of infection, death and social destruction.

With a virus the ignorant can kill.

There is no comparison between the Spanish Flu and China Virus. Spanish Flu killed tens of millions, killed the healthiest people and killed with 24 hours of first symptoms. Go back and review your history. Fail.

I understand the mindset that does not believe anything they do not want to believe, you can be forgiven for that human failing, it is common.

But the data is clear, as above, this virus is killing at a much higher percent per infection than the Spanish flu.

And we are just in the first three months of it.

Now of course the Spanish flu killed more than this virus over all, because this virus has just started and the Spanish Flu went for over a year, without government practising containment measures for the most part.

So sure, if we follow sane and intelligent containment, like Australia, overall this virus will kill fewer people.


That is the entire point.

But at the current infection death rate this virus is clearly more dangerous than the Spanish flu and if you follow the "let me do what ever I want" crowd it will kill more people than the Spanish flu over time.

Let me make the point clear for you, right now we have a death rate globally of about 6% with this virus, the Spanish Flu had 2.5%

The COVID death rate is based upon "confirmed" cases of COVID. Most people who have come down with it, have never been tested but survived. The figure you quote is bullshit.

So basically your argument is there are a lot more people infected than we know off, who can spread it, we really do not know how many people have are infected so lets lift the lock downs.

Not really rational now is it? That is an argument to keep lock downs.

Of course all statistics including the death rates of the Spanish flu are based on the number of infections we know of and the number of deaths in relation to that.

With the Spanish Flu too we do not know how many people were actually infected over all, only those who presented symptoms and then the number who died in relation to that.

That is how epidemiology works.

And this virus has a much higher rate of death than the Spanish flu per known infection.

It is if you consider the economic cost of staying shut down?

You act like there is no cost

We have already wasted trillions, this has to stop. 1/4 american children don't get enough to eat. How about we spend our trillions on that. maybe some extra armor on our humvees

Maybe you know pay for health care.

It's almost like people imagine we don't live in a capitalist society and the state will take care of you in the face of this great economic upheavel.

Of course there is cost, and it is huge, no one is disputing that.

The question is will the cost in death and health and even more importantly the economic cost be higher with wave after wave of infection in a chaotic or uncoordinated easing of restrictions.

Australia has had tougher lock downs than the USA, but it was coordinated and rational so our economy though hit hard is not in the chaotic mess the USA is, and we have half the unemployment rate of the US.

And because our lock downs were rational, our citizens concerned about the public welfare, we can open up quicker, at least domestically with far less health risk and more public spending confidence than the United States of Anger.

Actually, America has had MASSIVE shutdowns of an unprecedented nature. Traffic has been reduced dramatically, elective procedures in hospitals cancelled, tens of thousand of stores closed, bars, nail salons, barbershops, tattoo parlors all shut down for 6 weeks and counting. We reduced more than 30 million families to utter destitution.

Some states have, some have not.

Some are lifting, some are not.

Some states have a populace unconcerned with their fellow Americans so protesting and spreading the virus, others not.

That is my point the national response has been uncoordinated and chaotic.

Hence the shocking infection and death rates. (Let alone the Titanic failure in stimulus and unemployment assistance.)

Where as Australia's has been coordinated by states and federal government and rational, working together.

And we have some of the best results in the world, including less economic damage than the USA.

The great thing is that here in America ,we have elections. And if the people want to close up the economy next year, they can vote for Sleepy Joe this fall. But the reality is that America is going to come back, our President is the author of the "Art of the Comeback".

Your elections are the joke of the Democratic world, huge economic interests bought the process long ago and the result is you have a delusional sociopath in the White House and a man in cognative decline opposing him.

Worst politicians in both parties in the entire democratic world.

And I include Mexico in that one.

But your current elected leaders are making decisions, some sane like the Governor of Michigan, others deluded like the Gov of Texas.

You have had elections, and the winners are making calls.


America is a mess, but it was before the virus, that is just who you are now.

Even in our current state of disarray, I am sure we trump your country in every measure.

Well not in macro health care outcomes, cost of healthcare, access to health, social welfare benefits, real wage levels and labour protection, number of people per populace in the middle class, educational outcomes including access to university, suicide rates, poverty rates, crime rates, unemployment levels, government debt levels.

On all these Australia has better outcomes than the USA.

As does much of the rest of the democratic world.

Whatever you say. I prefer individual freedoms to government provided goodies. Rates and graphs are often innaccurate and don't tell the whole story of what makes a country great.

What freedom is there living with some of the highest infection death rates in the world, most expensive health care system with some of the worst results (in relation to the rest of the democratic world) declining real wages even before the pandemic, a declining middle class, the worst labour standards ,most people in prison.

Does not seem like freedom to me.


It seems like chaos.

All of these countries have more deaths per capita than the United States:

Belgium
Spain
Italy
UK
France
Netherlands
Sweden
Ireland

They are all the kind of socialist welfare state that you admire so much.

 

[Polishprince]

Indeed, the "this is just a normal virus crowd" are wallowing in complete and utter self indulgent ignorance.


The final death morality rate of the Spanish Flu rate was 2.5%.

Right now the global mortality rate of those infected this virus in the USA is 5.79%

In some countries higher such as Italy 13.8%, France 14.47% and the UK with 15.8%!

It is a higher death rate per population than those who died in World War Two, which was 3%.

https://www.cebm.net/c…/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

Just in the initial wave.

Now normally I have a lot of tolerance for the ignorant, but in this case they can cause a greater rate of infection, death and social destruction.

With a virus the ignorant can kill.

There is no comparison between the Spanish Flu and China Virus. Spanish Flu killed tens of millions, killed the healthiest people and killed with 24 hours of first symptoms. Go back and review your history. Fail.

I understand the mindset that does not believe anything they do not want to believe, you can be forgiven for that human failing, it is common.

But the data is clear, as above, this virus is killing at a much higher percent per infection than the Spanish flu.

And we are just in the first three months of it.

Now of course the Spanish flu killed more than this virus over all, because this virus has just started and the Spanish Flu went for over a year, without government practising containment measures for the most part.

So sure, if we follow sane and intelligent containment, like Australia, overall this virus will kill fewer people.


That is the entire point.

But at the current infection death rate this virus is clearly more dangerous than the Spanish flu and if you follow the "let me do what ever I want" crowd it will kill more people than the Spanish flu over time.

Let me make the point clear for you, right now we have a death rate globally of about 6% with this virus, the Spanish Flu had 2.5%

The COVID death rate is based upon "confirmed" cases of COVID. Most people who have come down with it, have never been tested but survived. The figure you quote is bullshit.

So basically your argument is there are a lot more people infected than we know off, who can spread it, we really do not know how many people are infected so lets lift the lock downs.

Not really rational now is it? That is an argument to keep lock downs.

Of course all statistics including the death rates of the Spanish flu are based on the number of infections we know of and the number of deaths in relation to that.

With the Spanish Flu too we do not know how many people were actually infected over all, only those who presented symptoms and then the number who died in relation to that.

That is how epidemiology works.

And this virus has a much higher rate of death than the Spanish flu per known infection.

In the case of the Spanish flu, few people were infected who didn't show symptoms. That's how most flu viruses behave. The total number of deaths was 200 million. That's about 200 times the number who have died from COVID-19. Any claim that the death rate for COVID-19 is in the same ballpark are pure moonshine.

The Spanish flu killed that many in a year and a half, we are three months into this one.

Now our infection rates are lower than the Spanish flu right now because unlike during the Spanish flu most of the civilised world have instituted lock downs, but the death rate of this flew per infection is higher than the Spanish flu.

TSpanish Flu 2.5% this virus about 6%.

So with a virus with a higher death rate we are currently, for now doing better than the Spanish flu in infections but not death rates.

With are doing better with infection rates, for now, just three months in, because of the lock downs which largely did not occur during the Spanish Flu.

Indeed, the "this is just a normal virus crowd" are wallowing in complete and utter self indulgent ignorance.


The final death morality rate of the Spanish Flu rate was 2.5%.

Right now the global mortality rate of those infected this virus in the USA is 5.79%

In some countries higher such as Italy 13.8%, France 14.47% and the UK with 15.8%!

It is a higher death rate per population than those who died in World War Two, which was 3%.

https://www.cebm.net/c…/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

Just in the initial wave.

Now normally I have a lot of tolerance for the ignorant, but in this case they can cause a greater rate of infection, death and social destruction.

With a virus the ignorant can kill.

There is no comparison between the Spanish Flu and China Virus. Spanish Flu killed tens of millions, killed the healthiest people and killed with 24 hours of first symptoms. Go back and review your history. Fail.

I understand the mindset that does not believe anything they do not want to believe, you can be forgiven for that human failing, it is common.

But the data is clear, as above, this virus is killing at a much higher percent per infection than the Spanish flu.

And we are just in the first three months of it.

Now of course the Spanish flu killed more than this virus over all, because this virus has just started and the Spanish Flu went for over a year, without government practising containment measures for the most part.

So sure, if we follow sane and intelligent containment, like Australia, overall this virus will kill fewer people.


That is the entire point.

But at the current infection death rate this virus is clearly more dangerous than the Spanish flu and if you follow the "let me do what ever I want" crowd it will kill more people than the Spanish flu over time.

Let me make the point clear for you, right now we have a death rate globally of about 6% with this virus, the Spanish Flu had 2.5%

The COVID death rate is based upon "confirmed" cases of COVID. Most people who have come down with it, have never been tested but survived. The figure you quote is bullshit.

So basically your argument is there are a lot more people infected than we know off, who can spread it, we really do not know how many people have are infected so lets lift the lock downs.

Not really rational now is it? That is an argument to keep lock downs.

Of course all statistics including the death rates of the Spanish flu are based on the number of infections we know of and the number of deaths in relation to that.

With the Spanish Flu too we do not know how many people were actually infected over all, only those who presented symptoms and then the number who died in relation to that.

That is how epidemiology works.

And this virus has a much higher rate of death than the Spanish flu per known infection.

It is if you consider the economic cost of staying shut down?

You act like there is no cost

We have already wasted trillions, this has to stop. 1/4 american children don't get enough to eat. How about we spend our trillions on that. maybe some extra armor on our humvees

Maybe you know pay for health care.

It's almost like people imagine we don't live in a capitalist society and the state will take care of you in the face of this great economic upheavel.

Of course there is cost, and it is huge, no one is disputing that.

The question is will the cost in death and health and even more importantly the economic cost be higher with wave after wave of infection in a chaotic or uncoordinated easing of restrictions.

Australia has had tougher lock downs than the USA, but it was coordinated and rational so our economy though hit hard is not in the chaotic mess the USA is, and we have half the unemployment rate of the US.

And because our lock downs were rational, our citizens concerned about the public welfare, we can open up quicker, at least domestically with far less health risk and more public spending confidence than the United States of Anger.

Actually, America has had MASSIVE shutdowns of an unprecedented nature. Traffic has been reduced dramatically, elective procedures in hospitals cancelled, tens of thousand of stores closed, bars, nail salons, barbershops, tattoo parlors all shut down for 6 weeks and counting. We reduced more than 30 million families to utter destitution.

Some states have, some have not.

Some are lifting, some are not.

Some states have a populace unconcerned with their fellow Americans so protesting and spreading the virus, others not.

That is my point the national response has been uncoordinated and chaotic.

Hence the shocking infection and death rates. (Let alone the Titanic failure in stimulus and unemployment assistance.)

Where as Australia's has been coordinated by states and federal government and rational, working together.

And we have some of the best results in the world, including less economic damage than the USA.

The great thing is that here in America ,we have elections. And if the people want to close up the economy next year, they can vote for Sleepy Joe this fall. But the reality is that America is going to come back, our President is the author of the "Art of the Comeback".

Your elections are the joke of the Democratic world, huge economic interests bought the process long ago and the result is you have a delusional sociopath in the White House and a man in cognative decline opposing him.

Worst politicians in both parties in the entire democratic world.

And I include Mexico in that one.

But your current elected leaders are making decisions, some sane like the Governor of Michigan, others deluded like the Gov of Texas.

You have had elections, and the winners are making calls.


America is a mess, but it was before the virus, that is just who you are now.

Even in our current state of disarray, I am sure we trump your country in every measure.

Well not in macro health care outcomes, cost of healthcare, access to health, social welfare benefits, real wage levels and labour protection, number of people per populace in the middle class, educational outcomes including access to university, suicide rates, poverty rates, crime rates, unemployment levels, government debt levels.

On all these Australia has better outcomes than the USA.

As does much of the rest of the democratic world.

Whatever you say. I prefer individual freedoms to government provided goodies. Rates and graphs are often innaccurate and don't tell the whole story of what makes a country great.

What freedom is there living with some of the highest infection death rates in the world, most expensive health care system with some of the worst results (in relation to the rest of the democratic world) declining real wages even before the pandemic, a declining middle class, the worst labour standards ,most people in prison.

Does not seem like freedom to me.


It seems like chaos.

The people of the world want to come here, do you think they are crazy?


And even those Americans like Ruth Ginzberg and Alec Baldwin and DeNiro who made sacred vows to leave if Trump was elected, stay.


My grandfathers came here, and thought it was better than the Ultraliberal Austria-Hungary regime.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

.
Know More Than The Experts? Return To Work and Willingly Accept Your Fate

Among the U.S. public, the COVID-19 pandemic has boiled down to just two major schools of thought. One, that we all should follow the instructions as they are released by the scientific and medical communities, and two, that everyday life should go unchanged and believe the COVID-19 pandemic is no worse than an average cold and flu season.

Unfortunately, COVID-19 has proven itself much more deadly than the “flu” normally experienced each year. Its symptoms can vary from patient to patient, it can affect each age group differently, and the disease can kill in several different ways.

There is no doubt the “shelter-in-place” and “social distancing” policies imposed by local and state governments have reduced the spread and thus the fatalities caused by COVID-19. It is the same with the forced closures of nonessential businesses. Even the impeached president trump reversed his stance concerning Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp’s reopening the state’s economy.

Certain businesses and their employees are essential to keep the nation functioning even at the reduced economic level currently being experienced. Sadly, the employees are unable to shelter-in-place and must do their best to maintain social distancing in their workplace environment. Most must work without PPE to prevent their contracting COVID-19.

Past administrations had experts run simulations to predict the effects and enable planning to provide the actions, personnel, and supplies necessary to minimize the spread of a newly discovered disease. But, despite the bragging by the impeached president trump about his “greatness”, it has been his ongoing, gross mismanagement of these programs, well established by past administrations, that brought the nation to the disastrous point we are now. And, thanks to the impeached president trump’s unbelievable stupidity, the situation is going to get much, much worse.

The impeached president trump is no different than other right-wingers. As with all issues, the impeached president trump, like the vast majority of conservatives, believe their knowledge far exceeds that of individuals formally educated in diseases and pandemics.

In addition to COVID-19, the conservatives’ self-proclaimed (but constantly disproven) “superior” knowledge in all subjects, includes constitutional law. The right-wingers’ reinterpretation of the U.S. Constitution consistently places their rights above those of all other Americans. These same conservatives will assure anyone who will listen there is a clause in the Constitution, which protects their right to endanger the health, safety, and well-being of others by ignoring legally imposed governmental orders designed to protect everyone. And this is just one example, of many, when right-wingers believe the U.S. Constitution guarantees their “rights” supersede the rights of all other citizens.

No reasonable person is surprised by the conservatives’ armed demonstrations against “shelter-in-place” and “social distancing” policies. Especially with the impeached president trump’s well documented history of encouraging his devoted fanatics to commit acts of violence.

With conservatives also agonizing over the rights of workers classified as “nonessential personnel”, whose jobs do nothing to contribute to the survival of society, some middle ground must be reached to prevent an armed uprising by the impeached president trump’s devoted fanatics.

The impeached president trump’s devoted fanatics have shown their supreme confidence in their leader’s assurances the COVID-19 pandemic presents no danger to them worse than a common cold. Therefore, conservatives’ demands that nonessential personnel be permitted to return to work for nonessential businesses, must be granted. This is especially true, when the nonessential businesses do nothing but assure the profits of the billionaire class go uninterrupted. Employees loyal to the billionaire class must be permitted to return to work, regardless of the potential for their deaths from COVID-19.

History provides many examples of the conservatives’ endless fight against their own best interests. Conservatives carrying firearms at demonstrations to threaten leaders who issued orders to protect public health shows how right-wingers are hellbent on contracting COVID-19. With their determination being so powerful, they should be permitted to win in this fight against their own best interests as they have so many others.



It’s always gratifying to see how much conservatives hate the truth. As seen on these message boards, reasonable people have come to expect this. Just as reasonable people expect the constant conservative denial of reality seen here day in and day out. (The COVID-19 pandemic has really proven this.)

So, keep your mindless, right wing criticisms coming. By doing so, you consistently reaffirm these facts about yourselves. You can do nothing else, which makes it useless to respond to your conservative nonsense.

Donald Trump's four-step plan to reopen the US economy – and why it will be lethal | Robert Reich




.

Thank you for curing my insomnia with your post.

 

[Jake Winker Frogen]

Indeed, the "this is just a normal virus crowd" are wallowing in complete and utter self indulgent ignorance.


The final death morality rate of the Spanish Flu rate was 2.5%.

Right now the global mortality rate of those infected this virus in the USA is 5.79%

In some countries higher such as Italy 13.8%, France 14.47% and the UK with 15.8%!

It is a higher death rate per population than those who died in World War Two, which was 3%.

https://www.cebm.net/c…/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

Just in the initial wave.

Now normally I have a lot of tolerance for the ignorant, but in this case they can cause a greater rate of infection, death and social destruction.

With a virus the ignorant can kill.

There is no comparison between the Spanish Flu and China Virus. Spanish Flu killed tens of millions, killed the healthiest people and killed with 24 hours of first symptoms. Go back and review your history. Fail.

I understand the mindset that does not believe anything they do not want to believe, you can be forgiven for that human failing, it is common.

But the data is clear, as above, this virus is killing at a much higher percent per infection than the Spanish flu.

And we are just in the first three months of it.

Now of course the Spanish flu killed more than this virus over all, because this virus has just started and the Spanish Flu went for over a year, without government practising containment measures for the most part.

So sure, if we follow sane and intelligent containment, like Australia, overall this virus will kill fewer people.


That is the entire point.

But at the current infection death rate this virus is clearly more dangerous than the Spanish flu and if you follow the "let me do what ever I want" crowd it will kill more people than the Spanish flu over time.

Let me make the point clear for you, right now we have a death rate globally of about 6% with this virus, the Spanish Flu had 2.5%

The COVID death rate is based upon "confirmed" cases of COVID. Most people who have come down with it, have never been tested but survived. The figure you quote is bullshit.

So basically your argument is there are a lot more people infected than we know off, who can spread it, we really do not know how many people are infected so lets lift the lock downs.

Not really rational now is it? That is an argument to keep lock downs.

Of course all statistics including the death rates of the Spanish flu are based on the number of infections we know of and the number of deaths in relation to that.

With the Spanish Flu too we do not know how many people were actually infected over all, only those who presented symptoms and then the number who died in relation to that.

That is how epidemiology works.

And this virus has a much higher rate of death than the Spanish flu per known infection.

In the case of the Spanish flu, few people were infected who didn't show symptoms. That's how most flu viruses behave. The total number of deaths was 200 million. That's about 200 times the number who have died from COVID-19. Any claim that the death rate for COVID-19 is in the same ballpark are pure moonshine.

The Spanish flu killed that many in a year and a half, we are three months into this one.

Now our infection rates are lower than the Spanish flu right now because unlike during the Spanish flu most of the civilised world have instituted lock downs, but the death rate of this flew per infection is higher than the Spanish flu.

TSpanish Flu 2.5% this virus about 6%.

So with a virus with a higher death rate we are currently, for now doing better than the Spanish flu in infections but not death rates.

With are doing better with infection rates, for now, just three months in, because of the lock downs which largely did not occur during the Spanish Flu.

Indeed, the "this is just a normal virus crowd" are wallowing in complete and utter self indulgent ignorance.


The final death morality rate of the Spanish Flu rate was 2.5%.

Right now the global mortality rate of those infected this virus in the USA is 5.79%

In some countries higher such as Italy 13.8%, France 14.47% and the UK with 15.8%!

It is a higher death rate per population than those who died in World War Two, which was 3%.

https://www.cebm.net/c…/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

Just in the initial wave.

Now normally I have a lot of tolerance for the ignorant, but in this case they can cause a greater rate of infection, death and social destruction.

With a virus the ignorant can kill.

There is no comparison between the Spanish Flu and China Virus. Spanish Flu killed tens of millions, killed the healthiest people and killed with 24 hours of first symptoms. Go back and review your history. Fail.

I understand the mindset that does not believe anything they do not want to believe, you can be forgiven for that human failing, it is common.

But the data is clear, as above, this virus is killing at a much higher percent per infection than the Spanish flu.

And we are just in the first three months of it.

Now of course the Spanish flu killed more than this virus over all, because this virus has just started and the Spanish Flu went for over a year, without government practising containment measures for the most part.

So sure, if we follow sane and intelligent containment, like Australia, overall this virus will kill fewer people.


That is the entire point.

But at the current infection death rate this virus is clearly more dangerous than the Spanish flu and if you follow the "let me do what ever I want" crowd it will kill more people than the Spanish flu over time.

Let me make the point clear for you, right now we have a death rate globally of about 6% with this virus, the Spanish Flu had 2.5%

The COVID death rate is based upon "confirmed" cases of COVID. Most people who have come down with it, have never been tested but survived. The figure you quote is bullshit.

So basically your argument is there are a lot more people infected than we know off, who can spread it, we really do not know how many people have are infected so lets lift the lock downs.

Not really rational now is it? That is an argument to keep lock downs.

Of course all statistics including the death rates of the Spanish flu are based on the number of infections we know of and the number of deaths in relation to that.

With the Spanish Flu too we do not know how many people were actually infected over all, only those who presented symptoms and then the number who died in relation to that.

That is how epidemiology works.

And this virus has a much higher rate of death than the Spanish flu per known infection.

It is if you consider the economic cost of staying shut down?

You act like there is no cost

We have already wasted trillions, this has to stop. 1/4 american children don't get enough to eat. How about we spend our trillions on that. maybe some extra armor on our humvees

Maybe you know pay for health care.

It's almost like people imagine we don't live in a capitalist society and the state will take care of you in the face of this great economic upheavel.

Of course there is cost, and it is huge, no one is disputing that.

The question is will the cost in death and health and even more importantly the economic cost be higher with wave after wave of infection in a chaotic or uncoordinated easing of restrictions.

Australia has had tougher lock downs than the USA, but it was coordinated and rational so our economy though hit hard is not in the chaotic mess the USA is, and we have half the unemployment rate of the US.

And because our lock downs were rational, our citizens concerned about the public welfare, we can open up quicker, at least domestically with far less health risk and more public spending confidence than the United States of Anger.

Actually, America has had MASSIVE shutdowns of an unprecedented nature. Traffic has been reduced dramatically, elective procedures in hospitals cancelled, tens of thousand of stores closed, bars, nail salons, barbershops, tattoo parlors all shut down for 6 weeks and counting. We reduced more than 30 million families to utter destitution.

Some states have, some have not.

Some are lifting, some are not.

Some states have a populace unconcerned with their fellow Americans so protesting and spreading the virus, others not.

That is my point the national response has been uncoordinated and chaotic.

Hence the shocking infection and death rates. (Let alone the Titanic failure in stimulus and unemployment assistance.)

Where as Australia's has been coordinated by states and federal government and rational, working together.

And we have some of the best results in the world, including less economic damage than the USA.

The great thing is that here in America ,we have elections. And if the people want to close up the economy next year, they can vote for Sleepy Joe this fall. But the reality is that America is going to come back, our President is the author of the "Art of the Comeback".

Your elections are the joke of the Democratic world, huge economic interests bought the process long ago and the result is you have a delusional sociopath in the White House and a man in cognative decline opposing him.

Worst politicians in both parties in the entire democratic world.

And I include Mexico in that one.

But your current elected leaders are making decisions, some sane like the Governor of Michigan, others deluded like the Gov of Texas.

You have had elections, and the winners are making calls.


America is a mess, but it was before the virus, that is just who you are now.

Even in our current state of disarray, I am sure we trump your country in every measure.

Well not in macro health care outcomes, cost of healthcare, access to health, social welfare benefits, real wage levels and labour protection, number of people per populace in the middle class, educational outcomes including access to university, suicide rates, poverty rates, crime rates, unemployment levels, government debt levels.

On all these Australia has better outcomes than the USA.

As does much of the rest of the democratic world.

Whatever you say. I prefer individual freedoms to government provided goodies. Rates and graphs are often innaccurate and don't tell the whole story of what makes a country great.

What freedom is there living with some of the highest infection death rates in the world, most expensive health care system with some of the worst results (in relation to the rest of the democratic world) declining real wages even before the pandemic, a declining middle class, the worst labour standards ,most people in prison.

Does not seem like freedom to me.


It seems like chaos.

The people of the world want to come here, do you think they are crazy?


And even those Americans like Ruth Ginzberg and Alec Baldwin and DeNiro who made sacred vows to leave if Trump was elected, stay.


My grandfathers came here, and thought it was bette

r than the Ultraliberal Austria-Hungary regime.

The people that come to America, and by the way people come to other countries too, including Australia, are usually coming to the USA because they are leaving third world shit holes or they have a lot of money and know the USA looks after the wealthy if not the middle or working class.

The USA is an outright plutocracy.

If you have millions, yes the USA is a great place to live.

Well until this horrendous botched virus response.

Viruses do not care how much money you have.

 

[Polishprince]

Indeed, the "this is just a normal virus crowd" are wallowing in complete and utter self indulgent ignorance.


The final death morality rate of the Spanish Flu rate was 2.5%.

Right now the global mortality rate of those infected this virus in the USA is 5.79%

In some countries higher such as Italy 13.8%, France 14.47% and the UK with 15.8%!

It is a higher death rate per population than those who died in World War Two, which was 3%.

https://www.cebm.net/c…/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

Just in the initial wave.

Now normally I have a lot of tolerance for the ignorant, but in this case they can cause a greater rate of infection, death and social destruction.

With a virus the ignorant can kill.

There is no comparison between the Spanish Flu and China Virus. Spanish Flu killed tens of millions, killed the healthiest people and killed with 24 hours of first symptoms. Go back and review your history. Fail.

I understand the mindset that does not believe anything they do not want to believe, you can be forgiven for that human failing, it is common.

But the data is clear, as above, this virus is killing at a much higher percent per infection than the Spanish flu.

And we are just in the first three months of it.

Now of course the Spanish flu killed more than this virus over all, because this virus has just started and the Spanish Flu went for over a year, without government practising containment measures for the most part.

So sure, if we follow sane and intelligent containment, like Australia, overall this virus will kill fewer people.


That is the entire point.

But at the current infection death rate this virus is clearly more dangerous than the Spanish flu and if you follow the "let me do what ever I want" crowd it will kill more people than the Spanish flu over time.

Let me make the point clear for you, right now we have a death rate globally of about 6% with this virus, the Spanish Flu had 2.5%

The COVID death rate is based upon "confirmed" cases of COVID. Most people who have come down with it, have never been tested but survived. The figure you quote is bullshit.

So basically your argument is there are a lot more people infected than we know off, who can spread it, we really do not know how many people are infected so lets lift the lock downs.

Not really rational now is it? That is an argument to keep lock downs.

Of course all statistics including the death rates of the Spanish flu are based on the number of infections we know of and the number of deaths in relation to that.

With the Spanish Flu too we do not know how many people were actually infected over all, only those who presented symptoms and then the number who died in relation to that.

That is how epidemiology works.

And this virus has a much higher rate of death than the Spanish flu per known infection.

In the case of the Spanish flu, few people were infected who didn't show symptoms. That's how most flu viruses behave. The total number of deaths was 200 million. That's about 200 times the number who have died from COVID-19. Any claim that the death rate for COVID-19 is in the same ballpark are pure moonshine.

The Spanish flu killed that many in a year and a half, we are three months into this one.

Now our infection rates are lower than the Spanish flu right now because unlike during the Spanish flu most of the civilised world have instituted lock downs, but the death rate of this flew per infection is higher than the Spanish flu.

TSpanish Flu 2.5% this virus about 6%.

So with a virus with a higher death rate we are currently, for now doing better than the Spanish flu in infections but not death rates.

With are doing better with infection rates, for now, just three months in, because of the lock downs which largely did not occur during the Spanish Flu.

Indeed, the "this is just a normal virus crowd" are wallowing in complete and utter self indulgent ignorance.


The final death morality rate of the Spanish Flu rate was 2.5%.

Right now the global mortality rate of those infected this virus in the USA is 5.79%

In some countries higher such as Italy 13.8%, France 14.47% and the UK with 15.8%!

It is a higher death rate per population than those who died in World War Two, which was 3%.

https://www.cebm.net/c…/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

Just in the initial wave.

Now normally I have a lot of tolerance for the ignorant, but in this case they can cause a greater rate of infection, death and social destruction.

With a virus the ignorant can kill.

There is no comparison between the Spanish Flu and China Virus. Spanish Flu killed tens of millions, killed the healthiest people and killed with 24 hours of first symptoms. Go back and review your history. Fail.

I understand the mindset that does not believe anything they do not want to believe, you can be forgiven for that human failing, it is common.

But the data is clear, as above, this virus is killing at a much higher percent per infection than the Spanish flu.

And we are just in the first three months of it.

Now of course the Spanish flu killed more than this virus over all, because this virus has just started and the Spanish Flu went for over a year, without government practising containment measures for the most part.

So sure, if we follow sane and intelligent containment, like Australia, overall this virus will kill fewer people.


That is the entire point.

But at the current infection death rate this virus is clearly more dangerous than the Spanish flu and if you follow the "let me do what ever I want" crowd it will kill more people than the Spanish flu over time.

Let me make the point clear for you, right now we have a death rate globally of about 6% with this virus, the Spanish Flu had 2.5%

The COVID death rate is based upon "confirmed" cases of COVID. Most people who have come down with it, have never been tested but survived. The figure you quote is bullshit.

So basically your argument is there are a lot more people infected than we know off, who can spread it, we really do not know how many people have are infected so lets lift the lock downs.

Not really rational now is it? That is an argument to keep lock downs.

Of course all statistics including the death rates of the Spanish flu are based on the number of infections we know of and the number of deaths in relation to that.

With the Spanish Flu too we do not know how many people were actually infected over all, only those who presented symptoms and then the number who died in relation to that.

That is how epidemiology works.

And this virus has a much higher rate of death than the Spanish flu per known infection.

It is if you consider the economic cost of staying shut down?

You act like there is no cost

We have already wasted trillions, this has to stop. 1/4 american children don't get enough to eat. How about we spend our trillions on that. maybe some extra armor on our humvees

Maybe you know pay for health care.

It's almost like people imagine we don't live in a capitalist society and the state will take care of you in the face of this great economic upheavel.

Of course there is cost, and it is huge, no one is disputing that.

The question is will the cost in death and health and even more importantly the economic cost be higher with wave after wave of infection in a chaotic or uncoordinated easing of restrictions.

Australia has had tougher lock downs than the USA, but it was coordinated and rational so our economy though hit hard is not in the chaotic mess the USA is, and we have half the unemployment rate of the US.

And because our lock downs were rational, our citizens concerned about the public welfare, we can open up quicker, at least domestically with far less health risk and more public spending confidence than the United States of Anger.

Actually, America has had MASSIVE shutdowns of an unprecedented nature. Traffic has been reduced dramatically, elective procedures in hospitals cancelled, tens of thousand of stores closed, bars, nail salons, barbershops, tattoo parlors all shut down for 6 weeks and counting. We reduced more than 30 million families to utter destitution.

Some states have, some have not.

Some are lifting, some are not.

Some states have a populace unconcerned with their fellow Americans so protesting and spreading the virus, others not.

That is my point the national response has been uncoordinated and chaotic.

Hence the shocking infection and death rates. (Let alone the Titanic failure in stimulus and unemployment assistance.)

Where as Australia's has been coordinated by states and federal government and rational, working together.

And we have some of the best results in the world, including less economic damage than the USA.

The great thing is that here in America ,we have elections. And if the people want to close up the economy next year, they can vote for Sleepy Joe this fall. But the reality is that America is going to come back, our President is the author of the "Art of the Comeback".

Your elections are the joke of the Democratic world, huge economic interests bought the process long ago and the result is you have a delusional sociopath in the White House and a man in cognative decline opposing him.

Worst politicians in both parties in the entire democratic world.

And I include Mexico in that one.

But your current elected leaders are making decisions, some sane like the Governor of Michigan, others deluded like the Gov of Texas.

You have had elections, and the winners are making calls.


America is a mess, but it was before the virus, that is just who you are now.

Even in our current state of disarray, I am sure we trump your country in every measure.

Well not in macro health care outcomes, cost of healthcare, access to health, social welfare benefits, real wage levels and labour protection, number of people per populace in the middle class, educational outcomes including access to university, suicide rates, poverty rates, crime rates, unemployment levels, government debt levels.

On all these Australia has better outcomes than the USA.

As does much of the rest of the democratic world.

Whatever you say. I prefer individual freedoms to government provided goodies. Rates and graphs are often innaccurate and don't tell the whole story of what makes a country great.

What freedom is there living with some of the highest infection death rates in the world, most expensive health care system with some of the worst results (in relation to the rest of the democratic world) declining real wages even before the pandemic, a declining middle class, the worst labour standards ,most people in prison.

Does not seem like freedom to me.


It seems like chaos.

The people of the world want to come here, do you think they are crazy?


And even those Americans like Ruth Ginzberg and Alec Baldwin and DeNiro who made sacred vows to leave if Trump was elected, stay.


My grandfathers came here, and thought it was bette

r than the Ultraliberal Austria-Hungary regime.

The people that come to America, and by the way people come to other countries too, including Australia, are usually coming to the USA because they are leaving third world shit holes or they have a lot of money and know the USA looks after the wealthy if not the middle or working class.

The USA is an outright plutocracy.

If you have millions, yes the USA is a great place to live.

Well until this horrendous botched virus response.

Viruses do not care how much money you have.

Actually, this virus is attacking the wealthy areas like New York and New Jersey, and leaving less affluent areas like Mercer County alone.

 

[Jake Winker Frogen]

Indeed, the "this is just a normal virus crowd" are wallowing in complete and utter self indulgent ignorance.


The final death morality rate of the Spanish Flu rate was 2.5%.

Right now the global mortality rate of those infected this virus in the USA is 5.79%

In some countries higher such as Italy 13.8%, France 14.47% and the UK with 15.8%!

It is a higher death rate per population than those who died in World War Two, which was 3%.

https://www.cebm.net/c…/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

Just in the initial wave.

Now normally I have a lot of tolerance for the ignorant, but in this case they can cause a greater rate of infection, death and social destruction.

With a virus the ignorant can kill.

There is no comparison between the Spanish Flu and China Virus. Spanish Flu killed tens of millions, killed the healthiest people and killed with 24 hours of first symptoms. Go back and review your history. Fail.

I understand the mindset that does not believe anything they do not want to believe, you can be forgiven for that human failing, it is common.

But the data is clear, as above, this virus is killing at a much higher percent per infection than the Spanish flu.

And we are just in the first three months of it.

Now of course the Spanish flu killed more than this virus over all, because this virus has just started and the Spanish Flu went for over a year, without government practising containment measures for the most part.

So sure, if we follow sane and intelligent containment, like Australia, overall this virus will kill fewer people.


That is the entire point.

But at the current infection death rate this virus is clearly more dangerous than the Spanish flu and if you follow the "let me do what ever I want" crowd it will kill more people than the Spanish flu over time.

Let me make the point clear for you, right now we have a death rate globally of about 6% with this virus, the Spanish Flu had 2.5%

The COVID death rate is based upon "confirmed" cases of COVID. Most people who have come down with it, have never been tested but survived. The figure you quote is bullshit.

So basically your argument is there are a lot more people infected than we know off, who can spread it, we really do not know how many people are infected so lets lift the lock downs.

Not really rational now is it? That is an argument to keep lock downs.

Of course all statistics including the death rates of the Spanish flu are based on the number of infections we know of and the number of deaths in relation to that.

With the Spanish Flu too we do not know how many people were actually infected over all, only those who presented symptoms and then the number who died in relation to that.

That is how epidemiology works.

And this virus has a much higher rate of death than the Spanish flu per known infection.

In the case of the Spanish flu, few people were infected who didn't show symptoms. That's how most flu viruses behave. The total number of deaths was 200 million. That's about 200 times the number who have died from COVID-19. Any claim that the death rate for COVID-19 is in the same ballpark are pure moonshine.

The Spanish flu killed that many in a year and a half, we are three months into this one.

Now our infection rates are lower than the Spanish flu right now because unlike during the Spanish flu most of the civilised world have instituted lock downs, but the death rate of this flew per infection is higher than the Spanish flu.

TSpanish Flu 2.5% this virus about 6%.

So with a virus with a higher death rate we are currently, for now doing better than the Spanish flu in infections but not death rates.

With are doing better with infection rates, for now, just three months in, because of the lock downs which largely did not occur during the Spanish Flu.

Indeed, the "this is just a normal virus crowd" are wallowing in complete and utter self indulgent ignorance.


The final death morality rate of the Spanish Flu rate was 2.5%.

Right now the global mortality rate of those infected this virus in the USA is 5.79%

In some countries higher such as Italy 13.8%, France 14.47% and the UK with 15.8%!

It is a higher death rate per population than those who died in World War Two, which was 3%.

https://www.cebm.net/c…/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

Just in the initial wave.

Now normally I have a lot of tolerance for the ignorant, but in this case they can cause a greater rate of infection, death and social destruction.

With a virus the ignorant can kill.

There is no comparison between the Spanish Flu and China Virus. Spanish Flu killed tens of millions, killed the healthiest people and killed with 24 hours of first symptoms. Go back and review your history. Fail.

I understand the mindset that does not believe anything they do not want to believe, you can be forgiven for that human failing, it is common.

But the data is clear, as above, this virus is killing at a much higher percent per infection than the Spanish flu.

And we are just in the first three months of it.

Now of course the Spanish flu killed more than this virus over all, because this virus has just started and the Spanish Flu went for over a year, without government practising containment measures for the most part.

So sure, if we follow sane and intelligent containment, like Australia, overall this virus will kill fewer people.


That is the entire point.

But at the current infection death rate this virus is clearly more dangerous than the Spanish flu and if you follow the "let me do what ever I want" crowd it will kill more people than the Spanish flu over time.

Let me make the point clear for you, right now we have a death rate globally of about 6% with this virus, the Spanish Flu had 2.5%

The COVID death rate is based upon "confirmed" cases of COVID. Most people who have come down with it, have never been tested but survived. The figure you quote is bullshit.

So basically your argument is there are a lot more people infected than we know off, who can spread it, we really do not know how many people have are infected so lets lift the lock downs.

Not really rational now is it? That is an argument to keep lock downs.

Of course all statistics including the death rates of the Spanish flu are based on the number of infections we know of and the number of deaths in relation to that.

With the Spanish Flu too we do not know how many people were actually infected over all, only those who presented symptoms and then the number who died in relation to that.

That is how epidemiology works.

And this virus has a much higher rate of death than the Spanish flu per known infection.

It is if you consider the economic cost of staying shut down?

You act like there is no cost

We have already wasted trillions, this has to stop. 1/4 american children don't get enough to eat. How about we spend our trillions on that. maybe some extra armor on our humvees

Maybe you know pay for health care.

It's almost like people imagine we don't live in a capitalist society and the state will take care of you in the face of this great economic upheavel.

Of course there is cost, and it is huge, no one is disputing that.

The question is will the cost in death and health and even more importantly the economic cost be higher with wave after wave of infection in a chaotic or uncoordinated easing of restrictions.

Australia has had tougher lock downs than the USA, but it was coordinated and rational so our economy though hit hard is not in the chaotic mess the USA is, and we have half the unemployment rate of the US.

And because our lock downs were rational, our citizens concerned about the public welfare, we can open up quicker, at least domestically with far less health risk and more public spending confidence than the United States of Anger.

Actually, America has had MASSIVE shutdowns of an unprecedented nature. Traffic has been reduced dramatically, elective procedures in hospitals cancelled, tens of thousand of stores closed, bars, nail salons, barbershops, tattoo parlors all shut down for 6 weeks and counting. We reduced more than 30 million families to utter destitution.

Some states have, some have not.

Some are lifting, some are not.

Some states have a populace unconcerned with their fellow Americans so protesting and spreading the virus, others not.

That is my point the national response has been uncoordinated and chaotic.

Hence the shocking infection and death rates. (Let alone the Titanic failure in stimulus and unemployment assistance.)

Where as Australia's has been coordinated by states and federal government and rational, working together.

And we have some of the best results in the world, including less economic damage than the USA.

The great thing is that here in America ,we have elections. And if the people want to close up the economy next year, they can vote for Sleepy Joe this fall. But the reality is that America is going to come back, our President is the author of the "Art of the Comeback".

Your elections are the joke of the Democratic world, huge economic interests bought the process long ago and the result is you have a delusional sociopath in the White House and a man in cognative decline opposing him.

Worst politicians in both parties in the entire democratic world.

And I include Mexico in that one.

But your current elected leaders are making decisions, some sane like the Governor of Michigan, others deluded like the Gov of Texas.

You have had elections, and the winners are making calls.


America is a mess, but it was before the virus, that is just who you are now.

Even in our current state of disarray, I am sure we trump your country in every measure.

Well not in macro health care outcomes, cost of healthcare, access to health, social welfare benefits, real wage levels and labour protection, number of people per populace in the middle class, educational outcomes including access to university, suicide rates, poverty rates, crime rates, unemployment levels, government debt levels.

On all these Australia has better outcomes than the USA.

As does much of the rest of the democratic world.

Whatever you say. I prefer individual freedoms to government provided goodies. Rates and graphs are often innaccurate and don't tell the whole story of what makes a country great.

What freedom is there living with some of the highest infection death rates in the world, most expensive health care system with some of the worst results (in relation to the rest of the democratic world) declining real wages even before the pandemic, a declining middle class, the worst labour standards ,most people in prison.

Does not seem like freedom to me.


It seems like chaos.

All of these countries have more deaths per capita than the United States:

Belgium
Spain
Italy
UK
France
Netherlands
Sweden
Ireland

They are all the kind of socialist welfare state that you admire so much.

Indeed they do, because like the US they did not contain quickly enough. Some of those countries would be far more highly urbanised than the US. The infection will come to rural areas if not contained however. The USA has a large rural population.


We cannot be sure US numbers because many of your state governments, like China, refuse to offer real data. Such as Florida.

Though with the current infection rates in the USA , with the exception of the UK, means the USA if she lifts too early will catch up very soon.

 

[Polishprince]

Indeed, the "this is just a normal virus crowd" are wallowing in complete and utter self indulgent ignorance.


The final death morality rate of the Spanish Flu rate was 2.5%.

Right now the global mortality rate of those infected this virus in the USA is 5.79%

In some countries higher such as Italy 13.8%, France 14.47% and the UK with 15.8%!

It is a higher death rate per population than those who died in World War Two, which was 3%.

https://www.cebm.net/c…/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

Just in the initial wave.

Now normally I have a lot of tolerance for the ignorant, but in this case they can cause a greater rate of infection, death and social destruction.

With a virus the ignorant can kill.

There is no comparison between the Spanish Flu and China Virus. Spanish Flu killed tens of millions, killed the healthiest people and killed with 24 hours of first symptoms. Go back and review your history. Fail.

I understand the mindset that does not believe anything they do not want to believe, you can be forgiven for that human failing, it is common.

But the data is clear, as above, this virus is killing at a much higher percent per infection than the Spanish flu.

And we are just in the first three months of it.

Now of course the Spanish flu killed more than this virus over all, because this virus has just started and the Spanish Flu went for over a year, without government practising containment measures for the most part.

So sure, if we follow sane and intelligent containment, like Australia, overall this virus will kill fewer people.


That is the entire point.

But at the current infection death rate this virus is clearly more dangerous than the Spanish flu and if you follow the "let me do what ever I want" crowd it will kill more people than the Spanish flu over time.

Let me make the point clear for you, right now we have a death rate globally of about 6% with this virus, the Spanish Flu had 2.5%

The COVID death rate is based upon "confirmed" cases of COVID. Most people who have come down with it, have never been tested but survived. The figure you quote is bullshit.

So basically your argument is there are a lot more people infected than we know off, who can spread it, we really do not know how many people are infected so lets lift the lock downs.

Not really rational now is it? That is an argument to keep lock downs.

Of course all statistics including the death rates of the Spanish flu are based on the number of infections we know of and the number of deaths in relation to that.

With the Spanish Flu too we do not know how many people were actually infected over all, only those who presented symptoms and then the number who died in relation to that.

That is how epidemiology works.

And this virus has a much higher rate of death than the Spanish flu per known infection.

In the case of the Spanish flu, few people were infected who didn't show symptoms. That's how most flu viruses behave. The total number of deaths was 200 million. That's about 200 times the number who have died from COVID-19. Any claim that the death rate for COVID-19 is in the same ballpark are pure moonshine.

The Spanish flu killed that many in a year and a half, we are three months into this one.

Now our infection rates are lower than the Spanish flu right now because unlike during the Spanish flu most of the civilised world have instituted lock downs, but the death rate of this flew per infection is higher than the Spanish flu.

TSpanish Flu 2.5% this virus about 6%.

So with a virus with a higher death rate we are currently, for now doing better than the Spanish flu in infections but not death rates.

With are doing better with infection rates, for now, just three months in, because of the lock downs which largely did not occur during the Spanish Flu.

Indeed, the "this is just a normal virus crowd" are wallowing in complete and utter self indulgent ignorance.


The final death morality rate of the Spanish Flu rate was 2.5%.

Right now the global mortality rate of those infected this virus in the USA is 5.79%

In some countries higher such as Italy 13.8%, France 14.47% and the UK with 15.8%!

It is a higher death rate per population than those who died in World War Two, which was 3%.

https://www.cebm.net/c…/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

Just in the initial wave.

Now normally I have a lot of tolerance for the ignorant, but in this case they can cause a greater rate of infection, death and social destruction.

With a virus the ignorant can kill.

There is no comparison between the Spanish Flu and China Virus. Spanish Flu killed tens of millions, killed the healthiest people and killed with 24 hours of first symptoms. Go back and review your history. Fail.

I understand the mindset that does not believe anything they do not want to believe, you can be forgiven for that human failing, it is common.

But the data is clear, as above, this virus is killing at a much higher percent per infection than the Spanish flu.

And we are just in the first three months of it.

Now of course the Spanish flu killed more than this virus over all, because this virus has just started and the Spanish Flu went for over a year, without government practising containment measures for the most part.

So sure, if we follow sane and intelligent containment, like Australia, overall this virus will kill fewer people.


That is the entire point.

But at the current infection death rate this virus is clearly more dangerous than the Spanish flu and if you follow the "let me do what ever I want" crowd it will kill more people than the Spanish flu over time.

Let me make the point clear for you, right now we have a death rate globally of about 6% with this virus, the Spanish Flu had 2.5%

The COVID death rate is based upon "confirmed" cases of COVID. Most people who have come down with it, have never been tested but survived. The figure you quote is bullshit.

So basically your argument is there are a lot more people infected than we know off, who can spread it, we really do not know how many people have are infected so lets lift the lock downs.

Not really rational now is it? That is an argument to keep lock downs.

Of course all statistics including the death rates of the Spanish flu are based on the number of infections we know of and the number of deaths in relation to that.

With the Spanish Flu too we do not know how many people were actually infected over all, only those who presented symptoms and then the number who died in relation to that.

That is how epidemiology works.

And this virus has a much higher rate of death than the Spanish flu per known infection.

It is if you consider the economic cost of staying shut down?

You act like there is no cost

We have already wasted trillions, this has to stop. 1/4 american children don't get enough to eat. How about we spend our trillions on that. maybe some extra armor on our humvees

Maybe you know pay for health care.

It's almost like people imagine we don't live in a capitalist society and the state will take care of you in the face of this great economic upheavel.

Of course there is cost, and it is huge, no one is disputing that.

The question is will the cost in death and health and even more importantly the economic cost be higher with wave after wave of infection in a chaotic or uncoordinated easing of restrictions.

Australia has had tougher lock downs than the USA, but it was coordinated and rational so our economy though hit hard is not in the chaotic mess the USA is, and we have half the unemployment rate of the US.

And because our lock downs were rational, our citizens concerned about the public welfare, we can open up quicker, at least domestically with far less health risk and more public spending confidence than the United States of Anger.

Actually, America has had MASSIVE shutdowns of an unprecedented nature. Traffic has been reduced dramatically, elective procedures in hospitals cancelled, tens of thousand of stores closed, bars, nail salons, barbershops, tattoo parlors all shut down for 6 weeks and counting. We reduced more than 30 million families to utter destitution.

Some states have, some have not.

Some are lifting, some are not.

Some states have a populace unconcerned with their fellow Americans so protesting and spreading the virus, others not.

That is my point the national response has been uncoordinated and chaotic.

Hence the shocking infection and death rates. (Let alone the Titanic failure in stimulus and unemployment assistance.)

Where as Australia's has been coordinated by states and federal government and rational, working together.

And we have some of the best results in the world, including less economic damage than the USA.

The great thing is that here in America ,we have elections. And if the people want to close up the economy next year, they can vote for Sleepy Joe this fall. But the reality is that America is going to come back, our President is the author of the "Art of the Comeback".

Your elections are the joke of the Democratic world, huge economic interests bought the process long ago and the result is you have a delusional sociopath in the White House and a man in cognative decline opposing him.

Worst politicians in both parties in the entire democratic world.

And I include Mexico in that one.

But your current elected leaders are making decisions, some sane like the Governor of Michigan, others deluded like the Gov of Texas.

You have had elections, and the winners are making calls.


America is a mess, but it was before the virus, that is just who you are now.

Even in our current state of disarray, I am sure we trump your country in every measure.

Well not in macro health care outcomes, cost of healthcare, access to health, social welfare benefits, real wage levels and labour protection, number of people per populace in the middle class, educational outcomes including access to university, suicide rates, poverty rates, crime rates, unemployment levels, government debt levels.

On all these Australia has better outcomes than the USA.

As does much of the rest of the democratic world.

Whatever you say. I prefer individual freedoms to government provided goodies. Rates and graphs are often innaccurate and don't tell the whole story of what makes a country great.

What freedom is there living with some of the highest infection death rates in the world, most expensive health care system with some of the worst results (in relation to the rest of the democratic world) declining real wages even before the pandemic, a declining middle class, the worst labour standards ,most people in prison.

Does not seem like freedom to me.


It seems like chaos.

All of these countries have more deaths per capita than the United States:

Belgium
Spain
Italy
UK
France
Netherlands
Sweden
Ireland

They are all the kind of socialist welfare state that you admire so much.

Indeed they do, because like the US they did not contain quickly enough.

Though we cannot be sure because many of your state governments, like China refuse to offer real data. Such as Florida.

Though the current infections rates in the USA , with the exception of the UK, means the USA will catch up very soon.

We contained quickly enough here in Mercer County, just 1 death attributed to coronavirus and that is disputed.

 

[Cellblock2429]

Indeed, the "this is just a normal virus crowd" are wallowing in complete and utter self indulgent ignorance.


The final death morality rate of the Spanish Flu rate was 2.5%.

Right now the global mortality rate of those infected this virus in the USA is 5.79%

In some countries higher such as Italy 13.8%, France 14.47% and the UK with 15.8%!

It is a higher death rate per population than those who died in World War Two, which was 3%.

https://www.cebm.net/c…/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

Just in the initial wave.

Now normally I have a lot of tolerance for the ignorant, but in this case they can cause a greater rate of infection, death and social destruction.

With a virus the ignorant can kill.

/——-/ Your percentages are guesstimates based on a great unknown, how many had it and recovered without any testing.

 

[sparky]

The authorities said they could continue to stay open, but only if the limited their business to 25% of the customers they previously had.

I wish we could limit government to 25%

~S~

 

[basquebromance]

liberals are using this crisis to implement socialism...all around the world

"never let a crisis go to waste" - Hillary quoting Rahm quoting Alinsky

 

[harmonica]

.
Know More Than The Experts? Return To Work and Willingly Accept Your Fate

Among the U.S. public, the COVID-19 pandemic has boiled down to just two major schools of thought. One, that we all should follow the instructions as they are released by the scientific and medical communities, and two, that everyday life should go unchanged and believe the COVID-19 pandemic is no worse than an average cold and flu season.

Unfortunately, COVID-19 has proven itself much more deadly than the “flu” normally experienced each year. Its symptoms can vary from patient to patient, it can affect each age group differently, and the disease can kill in several different ways.

There is no doubt the “shelter-in-place” and “social distancing” policies imposed by local and state governments have reduced the spread and thus the fatalities caused by COVID-19. It is the same with the forced closures of nonessential businesses. Even the impeached president trump reversed his stance concerning Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp’s reopening the state’s economy.

Certain businesses and their employees are essential to keep the nation functioning even at the reduced economic level currently being experienced. Sadly, the employees are unable to shelter-in-place and must do their best to maintain social distancing in their workplace environment. Most must work without PPE to prevent their contracting COVID-19.

Past administrations had experts run simulations to predict the effects and enable planning to provide the actions, personnel, and supplies necessary to minimize the spread of a newly discovered disease. But, despite the bragging by the impeached president trump about his “greatness”, it has been his ongoing, gross mismanagement of these programs, well established by past administrations, that brought the nation to the disastrous point we are now. And, thanks to the impeached president trump’s unbelievable stupidity, the situation is going to get much, much worse.

The impeached president trump is no different than other right-wingers. As with all issues, the impeached president trump, like the vast majority of conservatives, believe their knowledge far exceeds that of individuals formally educated in diseases and pandemics.

In addition to COVID-19, the conservatives’ self-proclaimed (but constantly disproven) “superior” knowledge in all subjects, includes constitutional law. The right-wingers’ reinterpretation of the U.S. Constitution consistently places their rights above those of all other Americans. These same conservatives will assure anyone who will listen there is a clause in the Constitution, which protects their right to endanger the health, safety, and well-being of others by ignoring legally imposed governmental orders designed to protect everyone. And this is just one example, of many, when right-wingers believe the U.S. Constitution guarantees their “rights” supersede the rights of all other citizens.

No reasonable person is surprised by the conservatives’ armed demonstrations against “shelter-in-place” and “social distancing” policies. Especially with the impeached president trump’s well documented history of encouraging his devoted fanatics to commit acts of violence.

With conservatives also agonizing over the rights of workers classified as “nonessential personnel”, whose jobs do nothing to contribute to the survival of society, some middle ground must be reached to prevent an armed uprising by the impeached president trump’s devoted fanatics.

The impeached president trump’s devoted fanatics have shown their supreme confidence in their leader’s assurances the COVID-19 pandemic presents no danger to them worse than a common cold. Therefore, conservatives’ demands that nonessential personnel be permitted to return to work for nonessential businesses, must be granted. This is especially true, when the nonessential businesses do nothing but assure the profits of the billionaire class go uninterrupted. Employees loyal to the billionaire class must be permitted to return to work, regardless of the potential for their deaths from COVID-19.

History provides many examples of the conservatives’ endless fight against their own best interests. Conservatives carrying firearms at demonstrations to threaten leaders who issued orders to protect public health shows how right-wingers are hellbent on contracting COVID-19. With their determination being so powerful, they should be permitted to win in this fight against their own best interests as they have so many others.



It’s always gratifying to see how much conservatives hate the truth. As seen on these message boards, reasonable people have come to expect this. Just as reasonable people expect the constant conservative denial of reality seen here day in and day out. (The COVID-19 pandemic has really proven this.)

So, keep your mindless, right wing criticisms coming. By doing so, you consistently reaffirm these facts about yourselves. You can do nothing else, which makes it useless to respond to your conservative nonsense.

Donald Trump's four-step plan to reopen the US economy – and why it will be lethal | Robert Reich




.

1. the OP is too long.....
2. you are wrong.....my company has not stopped working
3. So, keep your mindless, left wing criticisms coming. By doing so, you consistently reaffirm these facts about yourselves. You can do nothing else, which makes it useless to respond to your conservative nonsense.

 

[harmonica]

As for the economy, those nations with sane lock down measures, a good social welfare system and a populace not self indulgently demanding rights without responsibilities, like Australia have half the unemployment rates as the USA and none of the social chaos because our social support system actually is civilised and works.

.....there it is again---idiotic comparisons ......Australia and the US are very DIFFERENT

 

[basquebromance]

public health charts are very much like economic charts...Trump knows more about corona science than all liberal governors combined!

 

[mudwhistle]

.
Know More Than The Experts? Return To Work and Willingly Accept Your Fate

Among the U.S. public, the COVID-19 pandemic has boiled down to just two major schools of thought. One, that we all should follow the instructions as they are released by the scientific and medical communities, and two, that everyday life should go unchanged and believe the COVID-19 pandemic is no worse than an average cold and flu season.

Unfortunately, COVID-19 has proven itself much more deadly than the “flu” normally experienced each year. Its symptoms can vary from patient to patient, it can affect each age group differently, and the disease can kill in several different ways.

There is no doubt the “shelter-in-place” and “social distancing” policies imposed by local and state governments have reduced the spread and thus the fatalities caused by COVID-19. It is the same with the forced closures of nonessential businesses. Even the impeached president trump reversed his stance concerning Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp’s reopening the state’s economy.

Certain businesses and their employees are essential to keep the nation functioning even at the reduced economic level currently being experienced. Sadly, the employees are unable to shelter-in-place and must do their best to maintain social distancing in their workplace environment. Most must work without PPE to prevent their contracting COVID-19.

Past administrations had experts run simulations to predict the effects and enable planning to provide the actions, personnel, and supplies necessary to minimize the spread of a newly discovered disease. But, despite the bragging by the impeached president trump about his “greatness”, it has been his ongoing, gross mismanagement of these programs, well established by past administrations, that brought the nation to the disastrous point we are now. And, thanks to the impeached president trump’s unbelievable stupidity, the situation is going to get much, much worse.

The impeached president trump is no different than other right-wingers. As with all issues, the impeached president trump, like the vast majority of conservatives, believe their knowledge far exceeds that of individuals formally educated in diseases and pandemics.

In addition to COVID-19, the conservatives’ self-proclaimed (but constantly disproven) “superior” knowledge in all subjects, includes constitutional law. The right-wingers’ reinterpretation of the U.S. Constitution consistently places their rights above those of all other Americans. These same conservatives will assure anyone who will listen there is a clause in the Constitution, which protects their right to endanger the health, safety, and well-being of others by ignoring legally imposed governmental orders designed to protect everyone. And this is just one example, of many, when right-wingers believe the U.S. Constitution guarantees their “rights” supersede the rights of all other citizens.

No reasonable person is surprised by the conservatives’ armed demonstrations against “shelter-in-place” and “social distancing” policies. Especially with the impeached president trump’s well documented history of encouraging his devoted fanatics to commit acts of violence.

With conservatives also agonizing over the rights of workers classified as “nonessential personnel”, whose jobs do nothing to contribute to the survival of society, some middle ground must be reached to prevent an armed uprising by the impeached president trump’s devoted fanatics.

The impeached president trump’s devoted fanatics have shown their supreme confidence in their leader’s assurances the COVID-19 pandemic presents no danger to them worse than a common cold. Therefore, conservatives’ demands that nonessential personnel be permitted to return to work for nonessential businesses, must be granted. This is especially true, when the nonessential businesses do nothing but assure the profits of the billionaire class go uninterrupted. Employees loyal to the billionaire class must be permitted to return to work, regardless of the potential for their deaths from COVID-19.

History provides many examples of the conservatives’ endless fight against their own best interests. Conservatives carrying firearms at demonstrations to threaten leaders who issued orders to protect public health shows how right-wingers are hellbent on contracting COVID-19. With their determination being so powerful, they should be permitted to win in this fight against their own best interests as they have so many others.



It’s always gratifying to see how much conservatives hate the truth. As seen on these message boards, reasonable people have come to expect this. Just as reasonable people expect the constant conservative denial of reality seen here day in and day out. (The COVID-19 pandemic has really proven this.)

So, keep your mindless, right wing criticisms coming. By doing so, you consistently reaffirm these facts about yourselves. You can do nothing else, which makes it useless to respond to your conservative nonsense.

Donald Trump's four-step plan to reopen the US economy – and why it will be lethal | Robert Reich




.

Thanks for the input, Comrade.

 

[Vastator]

.
Know More Than The Experts? Return To Work and Willingly Accept Your Fate

Among the U.S. public, the COVID-19 pandemic has boiled down to just two major schools of thought. One, that we all should follow the instructions as they are released by the scientific and medical communities, and two, that everyday life should go unchanged and believe the COVID-19 pandemic is no worse than an average cold and flu season.

Unfortunately, COVID-19 has proven itself much more deadly than the “flu” normally experienced each year. Its symptoms can vary from patient to patient, it can affect each age group differently, and the disease can kill in several different ways.

There is no doubt the “shelter-in-place” and “social distancing” policies imposed by local and state governments have reduced the spread and thus the fatalities caused by COVID-19. It is the same with the forced closures of nonessential businesses. Even the impeached president trump reversed his stance concerning Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp’s reopening the state’s economy.

Certain businesses and their employees are essential to keep the nation functioning even at the reduced economic level currently being experienced. Sadly, the employees are unable to shelter-in-place and must do their best to maintain social distancing in their workplace environment. Most must work without PPE to prevent their contracting COVID-19.

Past administrations had experts run simulations to predict the effects and enable planning to provide the actions, personnel, and supplies necessary to minimize the spread of a newly discovered disease. But, despite the bragging by the impeached president trump about his “greatness”, it has been his ongoing, gross mismanagement of these programs, well established by past administrations, that brought the nation to the disastrous point we are now. And, thanks to the impeached president trump’s unbelievable stupidity, the situation is going to get much, much worse.

The impeached president trump is no different than other right-wingers. As with all issues, the impeached president trump, like the vast majority of conservatives, believe their knowledge far exceeds that of individuals formally educated in diseases and pandemics.

In addition to COVID-19, the conservatives’ self-proclaimed (but constantly disproven) “superior” knowledge in all subjects, includes constitutional law. The right-wingers’ reinterpretation of the U.S. Constitution consistently places their rights above those of all other Americans. These same conservatives will assure anyone who will listen there is a clause in the Constitution, which protects their right to endanger the health, safety, and well-being of others by ignoring legally imposed governmental orders designed to protect everyone. And this is just one example, of many, when right-wingers believe the U.S. Constitution guarantees their “rights” supersede the rights of all other citizens.

No reasonable person is surprised by the conservatives’ armed demonstrations against “shelter-in-place” and “social distancing” policies. Especially with the impeached president trump’s well documented history of encouraging his devoted fanatics to commit acts of violence.

With conservatives also agonizing over the rights of workers classified as “nonessential personnel”, whose jobs do nothing to contribute to the survival of society, some middle ground must be reached to prevent an armed uprising by the impeached president trump’s devoted fanatics.

The impeached president trump’s devoted fanatics have shown their supreme confidence in their leader’s assurances the COVID-19 pandemic presents no danger to them worse than a common cold. Therefore, conservatives’ demands that nonessential personnel be permitted to return to work for nonessential businesses, must be granted. This is especially true, when the nonessential businesses do nothing but assure the profits of the billionaire class go uninterrupted. Employees loyal to the billionaire class must be permitted to return to work, regardless of the potential for their deaths from COVID-19.

History provides many examples of the conservatives’ endless fight against their own best interests. Conservatives carrying firearms at demonstrations to threaten leaders who issued orders to protect public health shows how right-wingers are hellbent on contracting COVID-19. With their determination being so powerful, they should be permitted to win in this fight against their own best interests as they have so many others.



It’s always gratifying to see how much conservatives hate the truth. As seen on these message boards, reasonable people have come to expect this. Just as reasonable people expect the constant conservative denial of reality seen here day in and day out. (The COVID-19 pandemic has really proven this.)

So, keep your mindless, right wing criticisms coming. By doing so, you consistently reaffirm these facts about yourselves. You can do nothing else, which makes it useless to respond to your conservative nonsense.

Donald Trump's four-step plan to reopen the US economy – and why it will be lethal | Robert Reich




.

Haven’t missed a day of work yet, over this shit...

 

[Lesh]

"There is no doubt the “shelter-in-place” and “social distancing” policies imposed by local and state governments have reduced the spread and thus the fatalities caused by COVID-19. It is the same with the forced closures of nonessential businesses. Even the impeached president trump reversed his stance concerning Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp’s reopening the state’s economy. "

 

[Jake Winker Frogen]

Indeed, the "this is just a normal virus crowd" are wallowing in complete and utter self indulgent ignorance.


The final death morality rate of the Spanish Flu rate was 2.5%.

Right now the global mortality rate of those infected this virus in the USA is 5.79%

In some countries higher such as Italy 13.8%, France 14.47% and the UK with 15.8%!

It is a higher death rate per population than those who died in World War Two, which was 3%.

https://www.cebm.net/c…/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

Just in the initial wave.

Now normally I have a lot of tolerance for the ignorant, but in this case they can cause a greater rate of infection, death and social destruction.

With a virus the ignorant can kill.

There is no comparison between the Spanish Flu and China Virus. Spanish Flu killed tens of millions, killed the healthiest people and killed with 24 hours of first symptoms. Go back and review your history. Fail.

I understand the mindset that does not believe anything they do not want to believe, you can be forgiven for that human failing, it is common.

But the data is clear, as above, this virus is killing at a much higher percent per infection than the Spanish flu.

And we are just in the first three months of it.

Now of course the Spanish flu killed more than this virus over all, because this virus has just started and the Spanish Flu went for over a year, without government practising containment measures for the most part.

So sure, if we follow sane and intelligent containment, like Australia, overall this virus will kill fewer people.


That is the entire point.

But at the current infection death rate this virus is clearly more dangerous than the Spanish flu and if you follow the "let me do what ever I want" crowd it will kill more people than the Spanish flu over time.

Let me make the point clear for you, right now we have a death rate globally of about 6% with this virus, the Spanish Flu had 2.5%

The COVID death rate is based upon "confirmed" cases of COVID. Most people who have come down with it, have never been tested but survived. The figure you quote is bullshit.

So basically your argument is there are a lot more people infected than we know off, who can spread it, we really do not know how many people are infected so lets lift the lock downs.

Not really rational now is it? That is an argument to keep lock downs.

Of course all statistics including the death rates of the Spanish flu are based on the number of infections we know of and the number of deaths in relation to that.

With the Spanish Flu too we do not know how many people were actually infected over all, only those who presented symptoms and then the number who died in relation to that.

That is how epidemiology works.

And this virus has a much higher rate of death than the Spanish flu per known infection.

In the case of the Spanish flu, few people were infected who didn't show symptoms. That's how most flu viruses behave. The total number of deaths was 200 million. That's about 200 times the number who have died from COVID-19. Any claim that the death rate for COVID-19 is in the same ballpark are pure moonshine.

The Spanish flu killed that many in a year and a half, we are three months into this one.

Now our infection rates are lower than the Spanish flu right now because unlike during the Spanish flu most of the civilised world have instituted lock downs, but the death rate of this flew per infection is higher than the Spanish flu.

TSpanish Flu 2.5% this virus about 6%.

So with a virus with a higher death rate we are currently, for now doing better than the Spanish flu in infections but not death rates.

With are doing better with infection rates, for now, just three months in, because of the lock downs which largely did not occur during the Spanish Flu.

Indeed, the "this is just a normal virus crowd" are wallowing in complete and utter self indulgent ignorance.


The final death morality rate of the Spanish Flu rate was 2.5%.

Right now the global mortality rate of those infected this virus in the USA is 5.79%

In some countries higher such as Italy 13.8%, France 14.47% and the UK with 15.8%!

It is a higher death rate per population than those who died in World War Two, which was 3%.

https://www.cebm.net/c…/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

Just in the initial wave.

Now normally I have a lot of tolerance for the ignorant, but in this case they can cause a greater rate of infection, death and social destruction.

With a virus the ignorant can kill.

There is no comparison between the Spanish Flu and China Virus. Spanish Flu killed tens of millions, killed the healthiest people and killed with 24 hours of first symptoms. Go back and review your history. Fail.

I understand the mindset that does not believe anything they do not want to believe, you can be forgiven for that human failing, it is common.

But the data is clear, as above, this virus is killing at a much higher percent per infection than the Spanish flu.

And we are just in the first three months of it.

Now of course the Spanish flu killed more than this virus over all, because this virus has just started and the Spanish Flu went for over a year, without government practising containment measures for the most part.

So sure, if we follow sane and intelligent containment, like Australia, overall this virus will kill fewer people.


That is the entire point.

But at the current infection death rate this virus is clearly more dangerous than the Spanish flu and if you follow the "let me do what ever I want" crowd it will kill more people than the Spanish flu over time.

Let me make the point clear for you, right now we have a death rate globally of about 6% with this virus, the Spanish Flu had 2.5%

The COVID death rate is based upon "confirmed" cases of COVID. Most people who have come down with it, have never been tested but survived. The figure you quote is bullshit.

So basically your argument is there are a lot more people infected than we know off, who can spread it, we really do not know how many people have are infected so lets lift the lock downs.

Not really rational now is it? That is an argument to keep lock downs.

Of course all statistics including the death rates of the Spanish flu are based on the number of infections we know of and the number of deaths in relation to that.

With the Spanish Flu too we do not know how many people were actually infected over all, only those who presented symptoms and then the number who died in relation to that.

That is how epidemiology works.

And this virus has a much higher rate of death than the Spanish flu per known infection.

It is if you consider the economic cost of staying shut down?

You act like there is no cost

We have already wasted trillions, this has to stop. 1/4 american children don't get enough to eat. How about we spend our trillions on that. maybe some extra armor on our humvees

Maybe you know pay for health care.

It's almost like people imagine we don't live in a capitalist society and the state will take care of you in the face of this great economic upheavel.

Of course there is cost, and it is huge, no one is disputing that.

The question is will the cost in death and health and even more importantly the economic cost be higher with wave after wave of infection in a chaotic or uncoordinated easing of restrictions.

Australia has had tougher lock downs than the USA, but it was coordinated and rational so our economy though hit hard is not in the chaotic mess the USA is, and we have half the unemployment rate of the US.

And because our lock downs were rational, our citizens concerned about the public welfare, we can open up quicker, at least domestically with far less health risk and more public spending confidence than the United States of Anger.

Actually, America has had MASSIVE shutdowns of an unprecedented nature. Traffic has been reduced dramatically, elective procedures in hospitals cancelled, tens of thousand of stores closed, bars, nail salons, barbershops, tattoo parlors all shut down for 6 weeks and counting. We reduced more than 30 million families to utter destitution.

Some states have, some have not.

Some are lifting, some are not.

Some states have a populace unconcerned with their fellow Americans so protesting and spreading the virus, others not.

That is my point the national response has been uncoordinated and chaotic.

Hence the shocking infection and death rates. (Let alone the Titanic failure in stimulus and unemployment assistance.)

Where as Australia's has been coordinated by states and federal government and rational, working together.

And we have some of the best results in the world, including less economic damage than the USA.

The great thing is that here in America ,we have elections. And if the people want to close up the economy next year, they can vote for Sleepy Joe this fall. But the reality is that America is going to come back, our President is the author of the "Art of the Comeback".

Your elections are the joke of the Democratic world, huge economic interests bought the process long ago and the result is you have a delusional sociopath in the White House and a man in cognative decline opposing him.

Worst politicians in both parties in the entire democratic world.

And I include Mexico in that one.

But your current elected leaders are making decisions, some sane like the Governor of Michigan, others deluded like the Gov of Texas.

You have had elections, and the winners are making calls.


America is a mess, but it was before the virus, that is just who you are now.

Even in our current state of disarray, I am sure we trump your country in every measure.

Well not in macro health care outcomes, cost of healthcare, access to health, social welfare benefits, real wage levels and labour protection, number of people per populace in the middle class, educational outcomes including access to university, suicide rates, poverty rates, crime rates, unemployment levels, government debt levels.

On all these Australia has better outcomes than the USA.

As does much of the rest of the democratic world.

Whatever you say. I prefer individual freedoms to government provided goodies. Rates and graphs are often innaccurate and don't tell the whole story of what makes a country great.

What freedom is there living with some of the highest infection death rates in the world, most expensive health care system with some of the worst results (in relation to the rest of the democratic world) declining real wages even before the pandemic, a declining middle class, the worst labour standards ,most people in prison.

Does not seem like freedom to me.


It seems like chaos.

All of these countries have more deaths per capita than the United States:

Belgium
Spain
Italy
UK
France
Netherlands
Sweden
Ireland

They are all the kind of socialist welfare state that you admire so much.

Indeed they do, because like the US they did not contain quickly enough.

Though we cannot be sure because many of your state governments, like China refuse to offer real data. Such as Florida.

Though the current infections rates in the USA , with the exception of the UK, means the USA will catch up very soon.

We contained quickly enough here in Mercer County, just 1 death attributed to coronavirus and that is disputed.

As for the economy, those nations with sane lock down measures, a good social welfare system and a populace not self indulgently demanding rights without responsibilities, like Australia have half the unemployment rates as the USA and none of the social chaos because our social support system actually is civilised and works.

.....there it is again---idiotic comparisons ......Australia and the US are very DIFFERENT

Indeed we are.

We have our virus outbreak contained, half the unemployment of the USA, a better stimulus program that actually works, better health care and social support.

And better beaches too.

You are right, Australia and America are very different.

 

[MarathonMike]

Indeed, the "this is just a normal virus crowd" are wallowing in complete and utter self indulgent ignorance.


The final death morality rate of the Spanish Flu rate was 2.5%.

Right now the global mortality rate of those infected this virus in the USA is 5.79%

In some countries higher such as Italy 13.8%, France 14.47% and the UK with 15.8%!

It is a higher death rate per population than those who died in World War Two, which was 3%.

https://www.cebm.net/c…/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

Just in the initial wave.

Now normally I have a lot of tolerance for the ignorant, but in this case they can cause a greater rate of infection, death and social destruction.

With a virus the ignorant can kill.

There is no comparison between the Spanish Flu and China Virus. Spanish Flu killed tens of millions, killed the healthiest people and killed with 24 hours of first symptoms. Go back and review your history. Fail.

I understand the mindset that does not believe anything they do not want to believe, you can be forgiven for that human failing, it is common.

But the data is clear, as above, this virus is killing at a much higher percent per infection than the Spanish flu.

And we are just in the first three months of it.

Now of course the Spanish flu killed more than this virus over all, because this virus has just started and the Spanish Flu went for over a year, without government practising containment measures for the most part.

So sure, if we follow sane and intelligent containment, like Australia, overall this virus will kill fewer people.


That is the entire point.

But at the current infection death rate this virus is clearly more dangerous than the Spanish flu and if you follow the "let me do what ever I want" crowd it will kill more people than the Spanish flu over time.

Let me make the point clear for you, right now we have a death rate globally of about 6% with this virus, the Spanish Flu had 2.5%

The COVID death rate is based upon "confirmed" cases of COVID. Most people who have come down with it, have never been tested but survived. The figure you quote is bullshit.

So basically your argument is there are a lot more people infected than we know off, who can spread it, we really do not know how many people are infected so lets lift the lock downs.

Not really rational now is it? That is an argument to keep lock downs.

Of course all statistics including the death rates of the Spanish flu are based on the number of infections we know of and the number of deaths in relation to that.

With the Spanish Flu too we do not know how many people were actually infected over all, only those who presented symptoms and then the number who died in relation to that.

That is how epidemiology works.

And this virus has a much higher rate of death than the Spanish flu per known infection.

In the case of the Spanish flu, few people were infected who didn't show symptoms. That's how most flu viruses behave. The total number of deaths was 200 million. That's about 200 times the number who have died from COVID-19. Any claim that the death rate for COVID-19 is in the same ballpark are pure moonshine.

The Spanish flu killed that many in a year and a half, we are three months into this one.

Now our infection rates are lower than the Spanish flu right now because unlike during the Spanish flu most of the civilised world have instituted lock downs, but the death rate of this flew per infection is higher than the Spanish flu.

TSpanish Flu 2.5% this virus about 6%.

So with a virus with a higher death rate we are currently, for now doing better than the Spanish flu in infections but not death rates.

With are doing better with infection rates, for now, just three months in, because of the lock downs which largely did not occur during the Spanish Flu.

Indeed, the "this is just a normal virus crowd" are wallowing in complete and utter self indulgent ignorance.


The final death morality rate of the Spanish Flu rate was 2.5%.

Right now the global mortality rate of those infected this virus in the USA is 5.79%

In some countries higher such as Italy 13.8%, France 14.47% and the UK with 15.8%!

It is a higher death rate per population than those who died in World War Two, which was 3%.

https://www.cebm.net/c…/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

Just in the initial wave.

Now normally I have a lot of tolerance for the ignorant, but in this case they can cause a greater rate of infection, death and social destruction.

With a virus the ignorant can kill.

There is no comparison between the Spanish Flu and China Virus. Spanish Flu killed tens of millions, killed the healthiest people and killed with 24 hours of first symptoms. Go back and review your history. Fail.

I understand the mindset that does not believe anything they do not want to believe, you can be forgiven for that human failing, it is common.

But the data is clear, as above, this virus is killing at a much higher percent per infection than the Spanish flu.

And we are just in the first three months of it.

Now of course the Spanish flu killed more than this virus over all, because this virus has just started and the Spanish Flu went for over a year, without government practising containment measures for the most part.

So sure, if we follow sane and intelligent containment, like Australia, overall this virus will kill fewer people.


That is the entire point.

But at the current infection death rate this virus is clearly more dangerous than the Spanish flu and if you follow the "let me do what ever I want" crowd it will kill more people than the Spanish flu over time.

Let me make the point clear for you, right now we have a death rate globally of about 6% with this virus, the Spanish Flu had 2.5%

The COVID death rate is based upon "confirmed" cases of COVID. Most people who have come down with it, have never been tested but survived. The figure you quote is bullshit.

So basically your argument is there are a lot more people infected than we know off, who can spread it, we really do not know how many people have are infected so lets lift the lock downs.

Not really rational now is it? That is an argument to keep lock downs.

Of course all statistics including the death rates of the Spanish flu are based on the number of infections we know of and the number of deaths in relation to that.

With the Spanish Flu too we do not know how many people were actually infected over all, only those who presented symptoms and then the number who died in relation to that.

That is how epidemiology works.

And this virus has a much higher rate of death than the Spanish flu per known infection.

It is if you consider the economic cost of staying shut down?

You act like there is no cost

We have already wasted trillions, this has to stop. 1/4 american children don't get enough to eat. How about we spend our trillions on that. maybe some extra armor on our humvees

Maybe you know pay for health care.

It's almost like people imagine we don't live in a capitalist society and the state will take care of you in the face of this great economic upheavel.

Of course there is cost, and it is huge, no one is disputing that.

The question is will the cost in death and health and even more importantly the economic cost be higher with wave after wave of infection in a chaotic or uncoordinated easing of restrictions.

Australia has had tougher lock downs than the USA, but it was coordinated and rational so our economy though hit hard is not in the chaotic mess the USA is, and we have half the unemployment rate of the US.

And because our lock downs were rational, our citizens concerned about the public welfare, we can open up quicker, at least domestically with far less health risk and more public spending confidence than the United States of Anger.

Actually, America has had MASSIVE shutdowns of an unprecedented nature. Traffic has been reduced dramatically, elective procedures in hospitals cancelled, tens of thousand of stores closed, bars, nail salons, barbershops, tattoo parlors all shut down for 6 weeks and counting. We reduced more than 30 million families to utter destitution.

Some states have, some have not.

Some are lifting, some are not.

Some states have a populace unconcerned with their fellow Americans so protesting and spreading the virus, others not.

That is my point the national response has been uncoordinated and chaotic.

Hence the shocking infection and death rates. (Let alone the Titanic failure in stimulus and unemployment assistance.)

Where as Australia's has been coordinated by states and federal government and rational, working together.

And we have some of the best results in the world, including less economic damage than the USA.

The great thing is that here in America ,we have elections. And if the people want to close up the economy next year, they can vote for Sleepy Joe this fall. But the reality is that America is going to come back, our President is the author of the "Art of the Comeback".

Your elections are the joke of the Democratic world, huge economic interests bought the process long ago and the result is you have a delusional sociopath in the White House and a man in cognative decline opposing him.

Worst politicians in both parties in the entire democratic world.

And I include Mexico in that one.

But your current elected leaders are making decisions, some sane like the Governor of Michigan, others deluded like the Gov of Texas.

You have had elections, and the winners are making calls.


America is a mess, but it was before the virus, that is just who you are now.

Even in our current state of disarray, I am sure we trump your country in every measure.

Well not in macro health care outcomes, cost of healthcare, access to health, social welfare benefits, real wage levels and labour protection, number of people per populace in the middle class, educational outcomes including access to university, suicide rates, poverty rates, crime rates, unemployment levels, government debt levels.

On all these Australia has better outcomes than the USA.

As does much of the rest of the democratic world.

Whatever you say. I prefer individual freedoms to government provided goodies. Rates and graphs are often innaccurate and don't tell the whole story of what makes a country great.

What freedom is there living with some of the highest infection death rates in the world, most expensive health care system with some of the worst results (in relation to the rest of the democratic world) declining real wages even before the pandemic, a declining middle class, the worst labour standards ,most people in prison.

Does not seem like freedom to me.


It seems like chaos.

All of these countries have more deaths per capita than the United States:

Belgium
Spain
Italy
UK
France
Netherlands
Sweden
Ireland

They are all the kind of socialist welfare state that you admire so much.

Indeed they do, because like the US they did not contain quickly enough.

Though we cannot be sure because many of your state governments, like China refuse to offer real data. Such as Florida.

Though the current infections rates in the USA , with the exception of the UK, means the USA will catch up very soon.

We contained quickly enough here in Mercer County, just 1 death attributed to coronavirus and that is disputed.

As for the economy, those nations with sane lock down measures, a good social welfare system and a populace not self indulgently demanding rights without responsibilities, like Australia have half the unemployment rates as the USA and none of the social chaos because our social support system actually is civilised and works.

.....there it is again---idiotic comparisons ......Australia and the US are very DIFFERENT

Indeed we are.

We have our virus outbreak contained, half the unemployment of the USA, a better stimulus program that actually works, better health care and social support.

And better beaches too.

You are right, Australia and America are very different.

You go ahead and believe that Australia is better than America if it makes you feel good.

 

[Jake Winker Frogen]

Well it makes me feel content, that I live in a better country and raise my children in one.

I have lived in both, have no glee in the total dysfunction and failure that is now America, but I can be content I got off the Titanic before it sunk.