Keith Ablow: “Men should be able to veto women’s abortions”

[SwimExpert]

Men should not be able to veto a woman's abortion. But they should be able to waive all responsibility and rights. If it's your choice, then it's your responsibility.

That's what i say. You can blame the man halfway for the pregnancy but the birth is entirely up to the mother. the kid is thus HER responsibility.

You're insane.

Of course he is. Reproductive rights only exist for women. Men merely have obligations. And this is what we call equality in 21st century America.

 

[SwimExpert]

Which has nothing to do with a father's obligation to support his children when they're born.

Again, your argument breaks in the same place every time: you assume that a father's choice to become a father is the basis of his obligation to care for his kids.

Nope. Its the child's right to support from both parents. That's why you fail.

It's the child's right? Well that's a novel theory. So what happens when a parent dies? Are the child's rights being violated? Why is it that courts routinely favor mothers in matters of child support and custody? Why are sperm donors not obligated to provide child support? Why are surrogates not obligated to provide child support?

You are attempting to apply a novel theory, which has no basis in fact, law, or logic.

 

[Skylar]

You are attempting to apply a novel theory, which has no basis in fact, law, or logic.

You seem confused. What I'm describing is the situation as it is. This is the law in 50 of 50 states. The legal logic as it actually exists. As every single state requires a father to support his own children.

You're the one attempting to apply a theory that has no basis in fact, law or logic. As your basis of obligation for a father supporting their child is the father choosing to be a father. Which isn't the legal basis...anywhere. The law doesn't reflect this. Court decisions don't reflect this. Child support payments don't reflect this.

Your position is gloriously imaginary. Whereas the position I advocate is law everywhere in the country. Our positions are not equal.

 

[Skylar]

Men should not be able to veto a woman's abortion. But they should be able to waive all responsibility and rights. If it's your choice, then it's your responsibility.

That's what i say. You can blame the man halfway for the pregnancy but the birth is entirely up to the mother. the kid is thus HER responsibility.

You're insane.

Of course he is. Reproductive rights only exist for women. Men merely have obligations. And this is what we call equality in 21st century America.

Rights are freedoms. A man has the same right to abort a fetus he is carrying as a woman does. His reproductive rights are identical. What's different is his biology. Not the rights.

The concept of 'rights' as expressed by the OP aren't freedoms. They are taking choice from someone else on the use of their own body. Where a man controls the use of his own body and that of a woman. But a woman controls neither his body nor her own.

This your ilk call 'freedom'. Can you see why 50 of 50 state legislatures have laughed that nonsense out of their state house doors?

 

[NYcarbineer]

When they can transplant fetuses into a man's artificial womb, then we can revisit this issue.

Why? Because you don't know how to honestly discuss this issue now ?

Nobody wanted to the discuss the point I originally made.

How does the man prove he's the father, which he would have to do in order to invoke a right to force the woman to carry the fetus to term?

Go!!!

 

[ScienceRocks]

On one hand I strongly believe that the father should have some say when it comes to their own children, but in cases when the woman's health is at stake. I'd say leave this power with the doctor.

I wouldn't run on such things in a general elections.

 

[strollingbones]

[

A man's choice or 'feelings' about being a father aren't the basis of his obligation. His child being born is. If the child exists, his obligation exists. As his obligation is to the child.

That obligation is always the same as the mother's.

That's BS. How can a man have an obligation to raise a child when he had no say so in the birth?. That's entirely the mothers choice. THINK

now we have an idiot who believes in virgin births? its not the entirely the mother's choice now is it?

again keep your damn sperm under control and make it your choice

 

[SwimExpert]

What I'm describing is the situation as it is. This is the law in 50 of 50 states.

No you're not, you're making up your own rationale and trying to hobble it together around the ugly truth. You're describing your own contrived theory which attempts (poorly) to explain a clusterfuck of incompatibilities. The idea that child support arises from a "child's right to be supported by two parents" is a fiction that you have made up yourself. I already pointed out the glaring holes in your theory. If it were true, sperm donors would be required to pay child support. If it were true, a child would have grounds for legal action for any situation that caused the death of a parent, as it would deny the child his/her rights. If what you were saying were true, single parent adoption would not be legal, and adoption without the consent of the child would not be legal (adoption relieves the biological parents of the duty of support the child; if such duty was based on a child's right to receive support, then it could not be relieved without the child's consenting waiver of said rights). Sorry, but it just doesn't fly. Good effort, but no cigar.

The uncomfortable and unfortunate truth that you're simply going to have to accept is that the entire concept of child support in our legal system, much like alimony, is a sexist institution based on the notion of male guilt and obligation, and female victimization and helplessness. Even though recent times have seen a slight liberalization where males can successfully be awarded child support, the facts still remain that:

1 - Family law practice continues to strongly favor women over men, including in matters of child custody and support.
2 - The institution of legally obligated child support only exists due to the notion that men have obligations while women are victims of men.
3 - The principles and beliefs expressed by the law's dictations and actions are highly variant in application, with the only shred of consistent thinking being the female centric bias.

 

[Skylar]

No you're not, you're making up your own rationale and trying to hobble it together around the ugly truth.

Obviously, I am. 50 of 50 states require a father to support any child born to him. Regardless of whether or not he wanted the child to be born. Not one state grants a father 'veto rights' over a woman's abortion.

Not once has a father choosing to be a parent been the basis of his obligation to support his children. Or has 'choosing not to' been the basis of a release of that obligation. You've imagined it. The well being of the child is that basis of parental obligation. The child's right to support from its parents is that basis.

Your entire basis of argument is imaginary bullshit that has no reflection in law, reason, history or logic. And has been rejected by every state, every legislature, every time.

You can't get around that.

You're describing your own contrived theory which attempts (poorly) to explain a clusterfuck of incompatibilities.

Again, you're projecting. As its your laughably rejected nonsense that has failed to persuade even a single state legislature that is a hot mess of contradiction. Your ilk have reimagined 'freedom' to be the power to control someone else's body. Where a man controls his body and a woman's body. But a woman controls neither his body nor her own.

That's not 'freedom'. Nor is it 'equality'.

Freedom and equality are the situation as it exists in 50 of 50 States now. A man controls his body. A woman controls hers. And their obligation to support their children is always equal.

That's freedom. That's equality. Their rights are always the same. Their obligation is always the same. And that's why 50 of 50 States have followed it, from the reddest of the red to the bluest of the blue.

And every single state has rejected your bullshit. Without exception.

 

[ShootSpeeders]

That's BS. How can a man have an obligation to raise a child when he had no say so in the birth?. That's entirely the mothers choice. THINK

now we have an idiot who believes in virgin births? its not the entirely the mother's choice now is it?

What are you babbling about now? As the board has already explained to you a dozen times - man is has a say in the conception but not in the birth. Why can't you understand that.?

It must really suck to be a hater.

 

[Skylar]

Oh, and Swim? Remember, you've never once been able to show us anywhere in US law or history where a father's obligation has been relieved because he didn't want his child to be born. Not once. Not in any State law. Not in any federal law. Not even in local laws.

You have absolutely nothing to back your pseudo-legal gibberish. And you know it.

Now, you've claimed that my argument that a child has a right to support from both parents has no basis in law, reason or history. Yet the State of Lousiana clearly disagrees:

Support: Children have the right to be supported by both parents. Children who are supported by only one parent often do not have enough money to meet their needs.

Child Support FAQ Department of Children Family Services State of Louisiana

As does the State of Colorado....

We all agree children have the right to support from both parents and do not lose this right when
a parent is not in their home. This basic belief is why we have child support laws.

Colorado Division ofChild Support Enforcement

http://www.co.weld.co.us/assets/Bc6Adcdc04328d1C3168.pdf

And Georgia...

Child support is assistance (usually financial), which is owed by parents to and for the benefit of a child. It is the public policy of the state of Georgia to require parents to provide adequate support for their minor children. Parents cannot waive a child's right to receive child support

Child Support FAQ

And Calfornia....

4002. (a) The county may proceed on behalf of a child to enforce
the child's right of support against a parent.
And again....

CA Codes fam 4000-4014

And Oklahoma....

What is child support?
Parents have a legal duty to provide financial support for their children. The court may order either or both parents to make regular payments for a child’s living and medical expenses. These payments are called child
support.

Right to child support
Child support payments are a basic legal right of children.

http://www.okdhs.org/NR/rdonlyres/B...0/9125_ChildSupportHandbook_ocss_05012012.pdf

And Tennessee.....

"All children have a legal right to be supported by both parents."

https://www.tn.gov/humanserv/cs/cs_handbook.pdf

Wisconsin...

"Establishing paternity guarantees a child's right to receive financial support, medical support, and inheritances from the father."

Official Waupaca County Website Departments Child Support

Conneticut...

“The independent nature of a child’s right to parental support was recognized by this court long before that
right was codified in our statutes.”

Guille v. Guille , 196Conn. 260, 263, 492 A.2d 175 (1985)

http://www.jud.ct.gov/lawlib/notebooks/pathfinders/childsupport/childsupport.pdf

That's odd, Swimmy. For a concept that has no basis in law there sure are a lot of States that disagree with you. Along with a host of other legal sources that say the same thing:

When there is a legal relationship between a father and his child:

• the child has the right to be supported by both parents

Paternity for Unmarried Parents - MassLegalHelp

And again...

Voluntary termination of parental rights is difficult except under certain circumstances.This is because children are generally seen to have a right to a parental relationship and, particularly, a right to receive financial support and care from both parents.

Read more: Voluntary Termination of Parental Rights

Even Wikipedia contradicts you:

Additionally, a non-custodial parent is responsible for child support payments even if they do not wish to have a relationship with the child. Courts have maintained that a child's right to financial support from parents supersedes an adult's wish not to assume a parenting role.

Child support - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Remember, Swimmy......just because you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about, are offering us ludicrous pseudo-legal gibberish and can't back your claims with jack shit

....doesn't mean I'm similarly limited.

 

[SwimExpert]

Obviously, I am. 50 of 50 states require a father to support any child born to him.

False. And I've already pointed out to you multiple times. Sperm donors are not required to pay child support, even when the mother is a single parent.

That aside, even if your premise were true your argument is fallacy of false cause.

 

[SwimExpert]

Oh, and Swim? Remember, you've never once been able to show us anywhere in US law or history where a father's obligation has been relieved because he didn't want his child to be born.

Skylar, you need to take a nap. Because you're way out in left field, babbling on with straw men and irrelevancies, and have completely lost track of the conversation. Your brain needs some rest.

 

[Skylar]

Obviously, I am. 50 of 50 states require a father to support any child born to him.

False. And I've already pointed out to you multiple times. Sperm donors are not required to pay child support, even when the mother is a single parent.

You haven't 'pointed it out'. You've simply typed the claim. Backed by nothing. Meanwhile, the basis of obligation for a father to support his child is the child's right to support from both parents.

Says who? Says these States, laws and court rulings;

Support: Children have the right to be supported by both parents. Children who are supported by only one parent often do not have enough money to meet their needs.

Child Support FAQ Department of Children Family Services State of Louisiana

As does the State of Colorado....

We all agree children have the right to support from both parents and do not lose this right when
a parent is not in their home. This basic belief is why we have child support laws.

Colorado Division ofChild Support Enforcement

http://www.co.weld.co.us/assets/Bc6Adcdc04328d1C3168.pdf

And Georgia...

Child support is assistance (usually financial), which is owed by parents to and for the benefit of a child. It is the public policy of the state of Georgia to require parents to provide adequate support for their minor children. Parents cannot waive a child's right to receive child support

Child Support FAQ

And Calfornia....

4002. (a) The county may proceed on behalf of a child to enforce
the child's right of support against a parent.
And again....

CA Codes fam 4000-4014

And Oklahoma....

What is child support?
Parents have a legal duty to provide financial support for their children. The court may order either or both parents to make regular payments for a child’s living and medical expenses. These payments are called child
support.

Right to child support
Child support payments are a basic legal right of children.

http://www.okdhs.org/NR/rdonlyres/B...0/9125_ChildSupportHandbook_ocss_05012012.pdf

And Tennessee.....

"All children have a legal right to be supported by both parents."

https://www.tn.gov/humanserv/cs/cs_handbook.pdf

Wisconsin...

"Establishing paternity guarantees a child's right to receive financial support, medical support, and inheritances from the father."

Official Waupaca County Website Departments Child Support

Conneticut...

“The independent nature of a child’s right to parental support was recognized by this court long before that
right was codified in our statutes.”

Guille v. Guille , 196Conn. 260, 263, 492 A.2d 175 (1985)

http://www.jud.ct.gov/lawlib/notebooks/pathfinders/childsupport/childsupport.pdf

Along with a host of other legal sources that say the same thing:

When there is a legal relationship between a father and his child:

• the child has the right to be supported by both parents

Paternity for Unmarried Parents - MassLegalHelp

And again...

Voluntary termination of parental rights is difficult except under certain circumstances.This is because children are generally seen to have a right to a parental relationship and, particularly, a right to receive financial support and care from both parents.

Read more: Voluntary Termination of Parental Rights

Hell, even Wikipedia contradicts you.

That aside, even if your premise were true your argument is fallacy of false cause.

My premise is obviously true. And I've shown you half a dozen states and various legal sources online that demonstrate it. The basis of a man's obligation to support his child is his child's right to support from its parents.

Meanwhile claims about a man 'choosing to be a father' being the basis of his obligation remains baseless pseudo-legal gibberish, backed by the same thing it has since the moment you posted it:

Jack shit.

 

[Skylar]

Oh, and Swim? Remember, you've never once been able to show us anywhere in US law or history where a father's obligation has been relieved because he didn't want his child to be born.

Skylar, you need to take a nap. Because you're way out in left field, babbling on with straw men and irrelevancies, and have completely lost track of the conversation. Your brain needs some rest.

I'm just right. You know it. I know it. Which is why it was so simple for me to find all sorts of sources backing my claims. And you've still got jack shit backing yours.

Get used to the idea.

 

[SwimExpert]

You haven't 'pointed it out'. You've simply typed the claim. Backed by nothing. Meanwhile, the basis of obligation for a father to support his child is the child's right to support from both parents.

Seriously, take a nap. You're now arguing that sperm donors have an obligation to pay child support. And you seem to think that it makes sense to say so. You're not this stupid.

 

[Skylar]

You haven't 'pointed it out'. You've simply typed the claim. Backed by nothing. Meanwhile, the basis of obligation for a father to support his child is the child's right to support from both parents.

Seriously, take a nap. You're now arguing that sperm donors have an obligation to pay child support. And you seem to think that it makes sense to say so. You're not this stupid.

Laughing....my argument remains the same: the obligation of a father to support is kid is based on the child's right to support. You can ignore all the States, laws and court decisions affirming this.

But you can't make the States, Law or Courts ignore it. Which is why you fail.

 

[dilloduck]

When they can transplant fetuses into a man's artificial womb, then we can revisit this issue.

Why? Because you don't know how to honestly discuss this issue now ?

Nobody wanted to the discuss the point I originally made.

How does the man prove he's the father, which he would have to do in order to invoke a right to force the woman to carry the fetus to term?

Go!!!

no one is suggesting that he do that---stop.

 

[aaronleland]

Isn't Keith Ablow the same dummy who said kids seeing Chaz Bono on Dancing With the Stars would make them gay?