Japan marks 76th anniversary of Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuclear bombings

[Unkotare]

Pearl Harbor. That was the main reason though probably not the only one why Japan was viewed differently from Germany in WWII.

So, a military strike against a military base was justification for slaughtering hundreds of thousands of civilians?

 

[Unkotare]

Mostly, what an idiot you are .....

You need to settle down, grandma.

 

[eagle7-31]

So, a military strike against a military base was justification for slaughtering hundreds of thousands of civilians?

First Japan failed to declare war on the US before hand and was pretending to talk peace at the same time, not a good combination. Secondly invading Japan would have meant far more deaths both civilian and military on both sides.

 

[Unkotare]

... invading Japan would have meant far more deaths both civilian and military on both sides.

Not the only other option.

 

[eagle7-31]

Not the only other option.

Hindsight is 20/20 most of the time.

 

[JoeB131]

Killing over 100,000 civilian Southerns in the Civil War.

You mean, 100,000 racist traitors? I'll be in mourning for 15 seconds.

The race issue cut both ways.

Yes, it does... but the fact that the Japanese were a non-white enemy meant that they were treated considerably differently than a white enemy

First Japan failed to declare war on the US before hand and was pretending to talk peace at the same time, not a good combination. Secondly invading Japan would have meant far more deaths both civilian and military on both sides.

Except there was no need to invade. Japan was already seeking peace.

 

[22lcidw]

Did they have wars? Yup. Did they have wars of aggression against their neighbors? not really



They were probably right. Now, putting aside the bomb wasn't available before VE Day, let's look at propaganda at the time.

Propaganda against Germany separated "Nazis" and "Good Germans". There were a lot of good Germans, the US government told my German-born grandparents who still had family in the "Old Country". We just had a problem with the Nazis.

The Japanese, on the other hand, were portrayed as sub-human monsters.



Actually, the nukes weren't much of a factor at all. The deciding factor was the entry of the USSR into the war.

Now Japan was facing two or three new potential fronts against a battle-hardened army with a much more vicious attitude on how to treat enemy civilians.

The Japanese Americans were not treated as Americans. From what I was told, Italian and German Americans were not allowed to have short wave radios at the time. Not comparing, but a restriction.

 

[Open Bolt]

Japan was prepared to surrender with only one condition

Japan only offered to surrender after both atomic bombs had already been dropped.

a condition met

Japan's condition (again, asked for only after both atomic bombs had already been dropped) was rejected.

after the two acts of unspeakable terror.

No such terror. Terrorism involves the intentional targeting of civilians.

The atomic bombs were dropped on military targets.

Japan was prepared to surrender on the terms that they did.

Then they should have done so. It was Japan's choice to wait and only surrender after we had nuked them twice.

So you support bin Laden taking down the Twin Towers on 9/11?
If he had gone after the Empire State & Chrysler Building, many thousands more would have died.
That's your logic, right?

You neglect the fact that al-Qa'ida deliberately murdered innocent civilians.

The US was bombing military targets.

The Japanese wanted peace, and had only one condition which was met after hundreds of thousands were incinerated.

Japan only asked to surrender after both atomic bombs had already been dropped.

If they had wanted to surrender before the atomic bombs were dropped, they have only themselves to blame for the fact that they did not do so.

Their one condition was that Hirohito retain unlimited dictatorial power. That condition was not met. We told them that Hirohito would be subordinate to MacArthur.

They wanted peace BEFORE the bombs,

Funny how they refused to surrender until after both atomic bombs had already been dropped.

and their single condition was met AFTER.

Their single condition was flatly rejected.

One of us clearly doesn't understand the definition of terrorism - that of the US government in fact.

Terrorism involves the deliberate targeting of civilians.

The US committed horrendous war crimes and acts of extreme terrorism throughout the war,

No we didn't.

culminating in what many believe to be the most unspeakable acts of terror in human history at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Appeals to the crowd are logical fallacies, but I doubt that many people actually believe that attacks on military targets are terrorism.

And wrote much of the history which minimizes/obscures US terrorism/war crimes.

Nothing to obscure.

 

[Open Bolt]

It was no more than a test.

That is incorrect. It was an attempt to make Japan surrender.

The Japanese were defeated and the US knew they were.

Odd how Japan kept refusing to surrender.

The US did not know how the bomb would affect a populated area

Yes we did.

and they also wanted to know the best type of bomb and elevation to achieve ultimate devastation.

We already knew that as well.

The bombs that were dropped on the two cities were totally different configurations and detonated at different elevations.

Not particularly relevant.

It was a convenient chance see these results under real circumstances.

We always observe the results when new weapons are used for the first time.

The death and devastation that resulted probably saved untold millions of human lives after seeing what two firecracker-sized bombs by todays nuclear standards, no sane person is willing to risk mutually assured destruction to use it again.

Probably so.

 

[Open Bolt]

Article clipped from Chicago Tribune

Clipping found in Chicago Tribune published in Chicago, Illinois on 8/14/1965.

www.newspapers.com

The article is real (unfortunately).

However, the content of the article is completely untrue.

So, a military strike against a military base was justification for slaughtering hundreds of thousands of civilians?

Hiroshima was a military strike against a military base.

Pearl Harbor was a peacetime massacre of innocent sailors.

 

[Mr Natural]

And the Japanese haven't fucked with anyone since.

Lesson learned.

 

[Open Bolt]

Dear yanks;
why the hell did you stop at only two???!!!

Because Japan surrendered after two.

 

[Open Bolt]

Actually, it's the consensus of historians that the Japanese surrendered because of the Soviets entering the war.

While the Soviet war declaration did scuttle Japan's plan to use the Soviets as mediators and force Japan to surrender to us directly, Japan's desire to escape the war predated this.

Japan started getting serious about trying to escape the war when we overran their defenses on Iwo Jima and Okinawa (which Japan had though would be able to resist our invasion).

I'd say the reason why Japan wanted out of the war was because they finally realized that we would keep on coming no matter what they did, and they would never be able to stop our invasion.

Yeah, but did he? Ike said he opposed the bombs years later, as did a lot of other officials.

After the war, other officials expressed opposition to using the atomic bombs, but no other officials claim to have expressed that opposition during the war.

I think Ike probably did voice opposition during the war. It is recorded that he had a conversation with Stimson about the atomic bombs right when he claims that he expressed his opposition.

Ike also had all sorts of nutty opinions against nuclear weapons when he was president, so having opposed their use against Japan would fit right in with his usual behavior.

Yes, they threw in with the Nazis, but Japan was more or less a functioning democracy in the 1940's.

Not much of a democracy with the Japanese Army exercising unlimited dictatorial power in the name of the Emperor.

The bombs aren't what encouraged Japan to surrender, Soviet entry into the Pacific War did. And the US folding on the issue of Hirohito's status.

The US didn't fold. We refused to let Hirohito retain unlimited dictatorial power.

You mean, 100,000 racist traitors? I'll be in mourning for 15 seconds.

That is hardly a fair characterization of southern civilians.

Yes, it does... but the fact that the Japanese were a non-white enemy meant that they were treated considerably differently than a white enemy

Japan's treatment had nothing to do with skin color. People were genuinely outraged over their atrocities.

Except there was no need to invade. Japan was already seeking peace.

Funny how Japan didn't manage to surrender until after the atomic bombs had already been dropped.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The only thing Japan Offered before we forced them to surrender was basically a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines.

 

[JoeB131]

Ike also had all sorts of nutty opinions against nuclear weapons when he was president, so having opposed their use against Japan would fit right in with his usual behavior.

By "Nutty" you mean that having enough weapons to blow up the world twice was probably enough?

Not much of a democracy with the Japanese Army exercising unlimited dictatorial power in the name of the Emperor.

Except they still had an elected parliment that appointed prime ministers. Tojo was forced to resign because he wasn't winning the war. That's not what happens in a dictatorship.

The US didn't fold. We refused to let Hirohito retain unlimited dictatorial power.

Except he really didn't. Japan was pretty much a constitutional monarchy at that point.

Japan's treatment had nothing to do with skin color. People were genuinely outraged over their atrocities.

Because Germany didn't commit any atrocities anyone should be upset about....

Funny how Japan didn't manage to surrender until after the atomic bombs had already been dropped.

You miss the sequence of events.
Germany surrendered.
Japan realized that it could not face the full onslaught of the allies, and started reaching out for peace. Their one condition, Hirohito gets to stay as Emperor (Tenyo)
The allies reject peace overtures and reaffirm their commitment to unconditional surrender.
The first bomb got dropped on 8-6
The USSR invaded Manchuria (Manchukuo) on 8-8
the second bomb got dropped on 8-9

The Japanese realized they weren't going to get a favorable settlement that let them keep Korea and Taiwan, or allow puppet government in Manchukuo and China stay in power.
The US realized the Russians would be in a better position if the war dragged on.

So everyone got a lot more reasonable.

 

[Concerned American]

The US was bombing military targets.

This is untrue. The Japanese diet was in session putting together their surrender when the bombs dropped. The US wanted to see what the bomb would do on people. The bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima used a "T" Bridge on the Hiroshima River, next to the Hiroshima city hall as a target. That was NOT a military target. The photo of the burned out dome was the Hiroshima city hall at the time--now it is the end of Peace Park on the opposite end from the Peace Park museum. I have been there and studied it.

 

[Concerned American]

Yes we did.

When was the bomb used on human populations before Aug. 6, 1945? It wasn't. You need to quit listening to propaganda and study the facts. An easy read that you might find informational is "Hiroshima" by John Hershey. He visited Hiroshima while the ashes were still warm.

 

[Open Bolt]

By "Nutty" you mean that having enough weapons to blow up the world twice was probably enough?

Ike had all sorts of deranged positions on nukes when he was president. When the generals drafted a plan for an arsenal that would be able to destroy 90% of Soviet nukes, Ike told them that he'd be happy with the ability to destroy 70% of their nukes.

Ike would lie to the media and say that we had no plans for tests or weapons bigger than what we achieved in Operation Castle. Then he forced the weapons labs to drop all their research into larger weapons, saying that they'd be making a liar out of him if they didn't.

Ike is responsible for that infernal rule that we can't use a nuke bigger than two megatons unless we can justify why lesser nukes are not sufficient to destroy the target.

It seems like there was something else too, but I can't think of it at the moment. But in general, Ike was an overall menace to American security.

Except they still had an elected parliment that appointed prime ministers. Tojo was forced to resign because he wasn't winning the war. That's not what happens in a dictatorship.

The power of Japan's civilian government was limited. The Japanese Army was not elected, and the Japanese Army exercised unlimited dictatorial power in the name of the Emperor.

Except he really didn't. Japan was pretty much a constitutional monarchy at that point.

That is incorrect. The Japanese Army exercised unlimited dictatorial power in the name of the Emperor.

If we had agreed to let the Emperor retain unlimited dictatorial power, it would be the Japanese Army that we would really have been allowing to retain unlimited dictatorial power.

Because Germany didn't commit any atrocities anyone should be upset about....

As I recall, Germany was treated more harshly than Japan was treated.

Germany never got a conditional surrender, or even an unconditional surrender. We invaded until they were destroyed. And German war criminals are still being hunted to this day.

You miss the sequence of events.
Germany surrendered.
Japan realized that it could not face the full onslaught of the allies, and started reaching out for peace. Their one condition, Hirohito gets to stay as Emperor (Tenyo)

That isn't what happened. After Germany surrendered, Japan stated trying to convince the Soviets to enter the Pacific war on Japan's side against the US.

It was only after our success on Okinawa that Japan stopped trying to win the war and started trying to escape the war. But all they did was ask the Soviets to let Prince Konoye come and talk to them. They did not present any list of conditions of any sort.

The allies reject peace overtures and reaffirm their commitment to unconditional surrender.

There were no peace overtures for anyone to reject, other than Japan's request to the Soviets to let Prince Konoye come and talk to them.

We did not reaffirm commitment to unconditional surrender. The Potsdam Proclamation was a list of generous surrender conditions.

 

[Open Bolt]

This is untrue.

No it isn't. Hiroshima was a huge military center with tens of thousands of Japanese soldiers and was the headquarters in charge of repelling our invasion of Japan.

The second atomic bomb was intended for Kokura Arsenal, a massive complex of factories that built Japan's light machine guns, heavy machine guns, and 20mm antiaircraft guns, as well as making the ammo for those guns.

Unfortunately there were difficulties and the second atomic bomb had to divert to its alternate target, Nagasaki, where it destroyed the Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works (which made steel for Japanese warships and built naval torpedoes) and the Mitsubishi Ordnance Works (which built aerial torpedoes and had made special torpedoes just to defeat Pearl Harbor's defenses).

The Japanese diet was in session putting together their surrender when the bombs dropped.

There are no records of this, but it wouldn't matter much even if it had been true. We had received no surrender offers at the time the bombs were dropped.

The US wanted to see what the bomb would do on people.

No. The US wanted Japan to surrender.

The bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima used a "T" Bridge on the Hiroshima River, next to the Hiroshima city hall as a target. That was NOT a military target.

The headquarters in charge of repelling our invasion was a military target, and so were the tens of thousands of Japanese soldiers in Hiroshima.

The photo of the burned out dome was the Hiroshima city hall at the time--now it is the end of Peace Park on the opposite end from the Peace Park museum. I have been there and studied it.

Did you note the position of Hiroshima Castle in relation to the position of the T shaped bridge?

When was the bomb used on human populations before Aug. 6, 1945? It wasn't.

There was however a test at Trinity where we got lots of information on how a nuclear explosion would affect an urban area.

You need to quit listening to propaganda and study the facts.

I am well aware of all the facts.

 

[2aguy]

This is untrue. The Japanese diet was in session putting together their surrender when the bombs dropped. The US wanted to see what the bomb would do on people. The bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima used a "T" Bridge on the Hiroshima River, next to the Hiroshima city hall as a target. That was NOT a military target. The photo of the burned out dome was the Hiroshima city hall at the time--now it is the end of Peace Park on the opposite end from the Peace Park museum. I have been there and studied it.

Now....the truth...