Zone1 It's virtually impossible for Protestants to understand Catholicism

[ding]

Actually the Catholic Church came along hundreds of years after what became the Eastern Orthodox existed, and before that it was called The Way, and was predominantly Jewish and centered on synagogues. Peter never set foot in Rome, and the Roman Church was just another bishopric among many until later as well. The East and West split in 1054.

Great Schism

On July 16, 1054, Patriarch of Constantinople Michael Cerularius was excommunicated, starting the “Great Schism” that created the two largest denominations in Christianity—the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox faiths.

education.nationalgeographic.org

Only Catholics keep claiming they're the first and only real church. It's total fictional nonsense. I do enjoy their Latin masses, though, and it's a shame they did away with them for the most part. Latin is a cool language; scared the crap out of savages.

Ignatius of Antioch, Dionysius of Corinth, Irenaeus, Gaius, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, The Little Labyrinth, The Poem Against the Marcionites, Eusebius of Caesarea, Peter of Alexandria, Lactantius, Cyril of Jerusalem, Optatus, Epiphanius of Salamis, Pope Damasus I, Jerome and Augustine say he did. And they were all closer to the event than anyone you can claim says otherwise.

 

[Meriweather]

I didn't start this thread. Protestants removed books; Catholics did not.

 

[ElmerMudd]

can't argue.

On the other hand, Jesus did establish a CHURCH.

which ones goes back to the time of the Apostles?

only one

Did Jesus establish the Catholic church or did the apostles. Either way, it is the first Christian church, started by the first Christians.
I grew up Episcopalian. I felt we were a church formed by devine intervention. As I grew up, I found out or church was started by Henry the VIII because he wanted a divorce and the Pope would not give him one.

 

[ElmerMudd]

I didn't start this thread. Protestants removed books; Catholics did not.

Most scholars agree that Luke wrote the Acts of the Apostles. Nearly all the rest of the books in the New Testament are letters, or epistles. Paul wrote most of these, but also included are letters written by James, Peter, John, and Jude. There were more letters, and epistles. that were not included in the Bible.
Moses wrote the first five books of the old testament Bible and at least one of the Psalms (Psalm 90). Ezra the scribe wrote the books of Ezra and 1–2 Chronicles. Nehemiah wrote the book of Nehemiah. Psalm writers include David, Asaph, the sons of Korah, Ethan, Heman.
The modern Bible was aggregated in the 4th century by the Catholic church. No church has removed books since then.

 

[DudleySmith]

Ignatius of Antioch, Dionysius of Corinth, Irenaeus, Gaius, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, The Little Labyrinth, The Poem Against the Marcionites, Eusebius of Caesarea, Peter of Alexandria, Lactantius, Cyril of Jerusalem, Optatus, Epiphanius of Salamis, Pope Damasus I, Jerome and Augustine say he did. And they were all closer to the event than anyone you can claim says otherwise.

That is a Catholic fable. Liittle 'c' catholicism was inherent in the theology before 'big C' came along, so it's a deceptive claim. Universalism in implicit in any monotheistic theology. Jerusalem and Antioch existed as centers of theology long before Rome, and clearly the Eastern Orthodox existed as well.

 

[DudleySmith]

Most scholars agree that Luke wrote the Acts of the Apostles. Nearly all the rest of the books in the New Testament are letters, or epistles. Paul wrote most of these, but also included are letters written by James, Peter, John, and Jude. There were more letters, and epistles. that were not included in the Bible.
Moses wrote the first five books of the old testament Bible and at least one of the Psalms (Psalm 90). Ezra the scribe wrote the books of Ezra and 1–2 Chronicles. Nehemiah wrote the book of Nehemiah. Psalm writers include David, Asaph, the sons of Korah, Ethan, Heman.
The modern Bible was aggregated in the 4th century by the Catholic church. No church has removed books since then.

All those books were known to exist before the 4th Century and pretty much standard by the mid 2nd Century, with a couple of them disputed, as Hebrews and some who were uncomfortable with Revelation. Most of the rejects were those with no reliable provenance, or were considered 'passion literature', or just redundant; many of those not chosen as canon continued to be read regardless.

The Apocrypha are still included in many bibles, even though they are made distinct from the canonical texts. The followers of the Eastern Orthodox were the main influences on the choices. In any case, most scholars in the Catholic Church don't reject the King James version, because in fact there was no 'Bible' until printing presses came along. So-called 'Protestants' merely used the Jewish version of the OT, which doesn't include Deuterocanonical books, a good reason to leave them out of the canon. Some of the latter are used in Masses so Catholic bibles include them in their 'canon'. The protestants had stricter standards, and stayed with the originally accepted Hebrew texts.

Deuterocanonical books - Wikipedia​

The Council of Hippo is more relevant to the argument.

Which books were removed from the New Testament in AD 367 by Athanasius of Alexandria, in AD393 by the Council of Hippo and in AD397 by the Council of Carthage? | Notes and Queries | guardian.co.uk

www.theguardian.com

Athanasius, in his Easter Letter of AD367, set out his list of books which were to be regarded as Scripture. His is the earliest extant list which corresponds with the canon of the New Testament as we now know it. In addition, he states that the Didache and the Shepherd, while not to be regarded on this level, were still worthy of study by catechumens.

Acceptance of the OT Apocrypha was gradual among what became the 'Catholic' Church.

 

[DudleySmith]

I didn't start this thread. Protestants removed books; Catholics did not.

No, they didn't remove any; they use the texts Jesus and his disciples used, i.e. those considered by Jews to be canonical. That's why the scrolls were called the Old Testament.

 

[ElmerMudd]

All those books were known to exist before the 4th Century and pretty much standard by the mid 2nd Century, with a couple of them disputed, as Hebrews and some who were uncomfortable with Revelation. Most of the rejects were those with no reliable provenance, or were considered 'passion literature', or just redundant; many of those not chosen as canon continued to be read regardless.

The Apocrypha are still included in many bibles, even though they are made distinct from the canonical texts. The followers of the Eastern Orthodox were the main influences on the choices. In any case, most scholars in the Catholic Church don't reject the King James version, because in fact there was no 'Bible' until printing presses came along. So-called 'Protestants' merely used the Jewish version of the OT, which doesn't include Deuterocanonical books, a good reason to leave them out of the canon. Some of the latter are used in Masses so Catholic bibles include them in their 'canon'. The protestants had stricter standards, and stayed with the originally accepted Hebrew texts.

Deuterocanonical books - Wikipedia​

The Council of Hippo is more relevant to the argument.

Which books were removed from the New Testament in AD 367 by Athanasius of Alexandria, in AD393 by the Council of Hippo and in AD397 by the Council of Carthage? | Notes and Queries | guardian.co.uk

www.theguardian.com

Athanasius, in his Easter Letter of AD367, set out his list of books which were to be regarded as Scripture. His is the earliest extant list which corresponds with the canon of the New Testament as we now know it. In addition, he states that the Didache and the Shepherd, while not to be regarded on this level, were still worthy of study by catechumens.

Acceptance of the OT Apocrypha was gradual among what became the 'Catholic' Church.

At the end of the day, all the books were written by mortal man, they were interpretted, into many languages, by common man, and the books, included in the Bible, were determined by mortal man. Mortal man is imperfect. Is the Bible the word of God or written through devine intervention.

 

[DudleySmith]

At the end of the day, all the books were written by mortal man, they were interpretted, into many languages, by common man, and the books, included in the Bible, were determined by mortal man. Mortal man is imperfect. Is the Bible the word of God or written through devine intervention.

I don't think most of the 'bible' is defective, just a lot of theologians and interpreters are. Most of these so-called 'flaws' are imaginary, and people try to use them to discredit principles they don't like and then pretend their claims will somehow make their faux 'revisions' true or something. Just because Catholic fictions like claiming to be founded by Peter and then name dropping 4 or 5 scholars from the early centuries as authoritative are pronounced doesn't make them true claims.

Personally I don't consider the OT 'books' from Ezra on to be 'canon', and only parts of Daniel as legit, but I'm not the 'decider'. They are clearly alien to the principal morals and teachings of the original Torah of Moses and earlier OT texts. The Apocrypha are also different from the general NT 'books' in style and writings. It's easy for me to see why they were rejected by the 'Protestant' scholars in the King James translations and also later translations striving for better, more historically valid canon. A study bible in chronological order is also handy to have around when studying the OT.

 

[rampart]

Which books did Catholics remove?

is the book of macabees in the protestant bibles? i could argue that the vulgate and its english translation duay are more complete than an

2% of U.S. adults are converts to Catholicism – people who now identify as Catholic after having been raised in another religion (or no religion). This means that there are 6.5 former Catholics in the U.S. for every convert to the faith.Oct 10, 2018

It looks like only about 30,000 converts per year in the U.S. for a Church with over 50 million adults as members. While The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints had 212,172 converts in 2022. And, the total number of members in the U.S. is 6,804,000. Which is really truly a missionary Church? We have 62,000 full-time missionaries out converting throughout the world. The Catholic Church isn't much of a missionary Church like Jesus Called the 12 Apostles to be and go out to the d4 corners of the earth.

y protestant scripture.

 

[Batcat]

I read all these posts and threads by Catholics and Protestants and the former are always trying to explain Catholicism to the latter, to no avail. Every now and then a Protestant "gets it" and eventually converts but most of the time, that does not (or does not seem to) happen. That's just my own POV. So I just kind of gave up, although I still answer reasonable questions from those who seem to really want to understand, which is not many, to be sure.

Most people who are baptized Catholic as an infant & raised Catholic (even if poorly) end up making good citizens because they hear the Word of God at Mass every Sunday, sometimes even daily, and usually the parents are law-abiding people and etc.... But still, so many Protestants have been told over and over by their pastors and friends and/or family that Catholicism is.. fill in the blanks: idolatrous, evil, the anti-Christ.. you freaking name it.

I have been telling people about the most important aspects of the Catholic faith for a LONG time (the Real Presence...), but again, very few of them seem to even begin to get it, mostly (my POV) because they don't WANT to get it.

Fine, that's your choice, but please do not pretend you know everything about the Catholic faith!

Do you believe that only Catholics can go to heaven?

 

[there4eyeM]

Those protesting for the genuine truth of Jesus understand the RCC and other such institutions quite well.

 

[ninja007]

all you have to do is put a kjv bible next to the rcc beliefs and the catechism; they are starkly oppsed- ill stick with the bible thanks.

 

[ninja007]

Do you believe that only Catholics can go to heaven?

no catholic goes to heaven because they dont believe Jesus' free gift is enough.

 

[ninja007]

A Summary Chart of the differences between Biblical Truth and Catholicism


by Richard Bennett


“Thy Word is Truth”
John 17:17

Biblical Truth The Light of God’s Word​ ​	Topic​	New Catechism Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994)​
The Bible only is the Standard for Truth​ “....the scripture cannot be broken.” John. 10:35 “Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.” John. 17:17 “That ye might learn in us not to think...above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.” 1 Corinthians 4:6 “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” Proverbs. 30:6 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17 “Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered...” Mark. 7:13​	The Basis of​ Truth​	Truth is based on Scripture, Tradition, and the Pope ​ “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together and communicate one with the other.” Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) Para 80 And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. CCC Para 81 “As a result the [Roman Catholic] Church...does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.” CCC Para 82 “The Supreme Pontiff, in virtue of his office, possesses infallible teaching authority when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful...he proclaims with a definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held as such.” CCC Para 891​
Salvation is by Grace Alone Through Faith​ “Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.” Romans 3:24 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: It is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8, 9 “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.” Rom 5:17 “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us...” Titus 3:5-6 “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” Galatians 2:21​	Salvation by Grace Alone​	For Salvation Grace becomes merely a help and is given through the sacraments of the Church​ “Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.” CCC Para2021 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. ’Sacramental grace’ is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. CCC Para1129 “One who desires to obtain reconciliation with God and with the Church, must confess to a priest all the unconfessed grave sins he remembers after having carefully examined his conscience.” CCC Para 1493​
Faith is the Gift of God and comes by the Word of God ​ “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” Acts 16:31 “For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake.” Philippians 1:29 “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Romans 10:17​	Faith is God-given ​ and sustained​	Faith comes through the Mother Church​ ​ “It is the Church that believes first, and so bears, nourishes and sustains my faith.” CCC Para 168 “Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother:...” Para 169 “Believing” is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. ‘No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother’” CCC Para 181​
Christ’s Sacrifice was His alone and once offered​ “...Jesus said, ‘It is finished:...’” John. 19:30 “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God” Hebrews 10:12 “...when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;” Hebrews. 1:3​	Christ’s Atonement Sufficient Finished Sacrifice​	Christ’s Sacrifice continues, and is also of the Church​ In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner.” CCC Para 1367 “The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the [Roman Catholic] Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire.” CCC Para 1368​

God is the Only All Holy One and the Only Source of Holiness​ “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.” Isaiah. 6:3 “Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? For Thou only art Holy: for all nations shall come and worship before Thee...” Revelation. 15: 4 “There is none holy as the Lord: for there is none beside Thee: neither is there any rock like our God.” 1 Samuel.2:2 “I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.” Isaiah 42:8​	God, the Only All Holy One​	Mary is also the All-Holy One and the Source of Holiness​ “By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the ‘Mother of Mercy,’ the All Holy One.” CCC Para 2677 “From the [Roman Catholic] Church he learns the example of holiness and recognizes its model and source in the all-holy Virgin Mary....” CCC Para 2030 “The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God ‘the All-Holy’ (Panagia), and celebrate her as ‘free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature’” CCC Para 493​
In Salvation the Lord Jesus Christ Alone Mediates ​ “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.” 1Timothy. 2:5 “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name [Jesus Christ] under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12​	One Mediator​	In Salvation “Mary” Also Mediates​ ​ “Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the [Roman Catholic] Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.” CCC Para 969​
God Hates Idolatry​ “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything...Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.” Exodus. 20:4-5 “And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even Ten Commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake...Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure....” Dt. 4:13, 15-16 “Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen” 1 John. 5:21​	Idolatry​	The Roman Catholic Church Rationalizes Idolatry​ “The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype, and whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.” CCC Para 2132 “Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified...the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new ‘economy’ of images.” CCC Para 2131​
This Pagan Practice is Forbidden in the Bible​ “There shall not be found among you any one... that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer, [one who calls up the dead].” Deut. 18:10-11 “And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits [divination; contacting the dead], and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people. Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I Am the Lord your God.” Leviticus. 20:6-7​	Communion with the Dead​	This Practice is Recommended by Rome​ “Communion with the dead. In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead...Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping “them, bur also of making their intercession for us effective.” CCC Para 958 “The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom, especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer...Their intercession is their most exalted service...We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.” CCC Para 2683​
Compiled by Richard Bennett, Converted Catholic Priest, now Evangelist. P.O. Box 192 Del Valle, TX 78617​ Email: [email protected]​	Contact​ Information​	More Biblical contrasts: www.bereanbeacon.org​

 

[fncceo]

It's virtually impossible for Protestants to understand Catholicism​

And none of you get Jews.

I can't even imagine what it's like to be a Hindu.

 

[Batcat]

no catholic goes to heaven because they dont believe Jesus' free gift is enough.

It is an interesting question.

Are Catholics saved? | GotQuestions.org

Are Catholics saved? Do Catholics go to heaven? If a person adheres to Roman Catholic beliefs and practices, is he/she saved?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[fncceo]

no catholic goes to heaven because they dont believe Jesus' free gift is enough.

 

[luiza]

Cultists arguing among themselves about a Church which their leader did not even want created and after he was long dead .
The arrogance and stupidity is why this cult is disappearing so fast .

 

[Cellblock2429]

I read all these posts and threads by Catholics and Protestants and the former are always trying to explain Catholicism to the latter, to no avail. Every now and then a Protestant "gets it" and eventually converts but most of the time, that does not (or does not seem to) happen. That's just my own POV. So I just kind of gave up, although I still answer reasonable questions from those who seem to really want to understand, which is not many, to be sure.

Most people who are baptized Catholic as an infant & raised Catholic (even if poorly) end up making good citizens because they hear the Word of God at Mass every Sunday, sometimes even daily, and usually the parents are law-abiding people and etc.... But still, so many Protestants have been told over and over by their pastors and friends and/or family that Catholicism is.. fill in the blanks: idolatrous, evil, the anti-Christ.. you freaking name it.

I have been telling people about the most important aspects of the Catholic faith for a LONG time (the Real Presence...), but again, very few of them seem to even begin to get it, mostly (my POV) because they don't WANT to get it.

Fine, that's your choice, but please do not pretend you know everything about the Catholic faith!

/---/ I was raised Catholic in the heart of the Southern Bible Belt. What you said is accurate. Lutherans are the exception.