Zone1 It's virtually impossible for Protestants to understand Catholicism

[DudleySmith]

I hear the same arguments re 'not getting it' from 'libertarians', who always contradict themselves, pull stuff out of their butts re 'The Founders', then when called on their weirdness start babbling 'statists don't get it n stuff'.

Well, if nobody is 'getting it' but super Speshul elitists mouthing nonsense, then it's probably bullshit. I see no such confusion in the books, just obvious points. If you see some obscure conspiracies and made up stuff, then feel free to point out all the anachronisms that are bound to be in any 'rewrite 4 centuries after the fact'. If you can't that means you either don't know what you're talking about or you're just following some fad rubbish you read somewhere and have no idea what the books are saying or when they were written.

Meanwhile, people new to the history of the texts can get a good intro from Darrell Bock's The Missing Gospels and other books like FF. Bruce's excellent histories. The Bock book also dispenses with the silly claims re Gnosticism and its fans, like Walther Bauer and Elaine Pagel's claims re 'original Christianity'. Also see Joachim Jeremia's excellent Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus for an economic and social study of the times as background for the era, extremely helpful in understanding Jewish culture and law in the Temple State and what Jesus and the Gospels are referring to in many places.

The Missing Gospels: Unearthing the Truth Behind Altern…

What others are saying about The Missing Gospels "Darre…

www.goodreads.com

The Orthodoxy is indeed the original and best documented; nothing was 'rewritten' by Constantine or anybody else re the Gospels.

Jerusalem in the time of Jesus : an investigation into economic and social conditions during the New Testament period : Jeremias, Joachim, 1900-1979 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

xv, 405 pages : 24 cm

archive.org

The latter is an excellent history of the times, whether you're a believer or not.

 

[ding]

That is a Catholic fable. Liittle 'c' catholicism was inherent in the theology before 'big C' came along, so it's a deceptive claim. Universalism in implicit in any monotheistic theology. Jerusalem and Antioch existed as centers of theology long before Rome, and clearly the Eastern Orthodox existed as well.

The list I have provided is a list of people who existed closer to the event and wrote about it. It's not fable.

You on the other hand, have offered no one who existed closer to the event that refutes what they wrote. If what was written wasn't commonly believed then it would have been opposed back then which it wasn't.

 

[DudleySmith]

The list I have provided is a list of people who existed closer to the event and wrote about it. It's not fable.

Of course it is. Just because you made a list doesn't mean it's fact. It's a fiction. The Eastern Orthodox claim a lot of names, too.

You on the other hand, have offered no one who existed closer to the event that refutes what they wrote. If what was written wasn't commonly believed then it would have been opposed back then which it wasn't.

Again doesn't address what I said. And to boot, some of those named were later condemned, lol. Nobody has claimed there was no early Christians. Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Empire. Neither Jesus nor Paul eve set foot in Rome. The earliest claim as a founder was Gregory, in around 600 A.D. Others claim it's main theology came later.

First, it is complicated, but Catholics have no unique claim on history.


Simply put, the Roman Catholic Church as it is today, in its doctrines and in its administration, did not exist until (at the earliest) the year 1215 AD. The Fourth Lateran Council ratified some of the teachings and most of the organizational forms that are distinctive of and essential to Roman Catholicism today.1 But it was not until the Council of Trent, which met sporadically from 1545 to 1563 that the main doctrines which separate Rome from Protestants were clearly articulated and ratified.2 Therefore, regardless of what my Roman Catholic friends might say, the Roman Church is not the oldest and most united church. It has a complicated past, and it has no unique claim on the Apostles or early Christians.

A (Very) Brief Explanation: Why are there Catholics and Protestants?

It may seem a bit arrogant, but I think this might be the shortest summary of the historical development of the Roman Catholic Church and the basic reason why there is such a thing as a Protestant.…

marcminter.com

Some claim Thomas of Aquina was the Father of Catholicism. There was no central church when Origen or Tertullian or Augustine was alive. Catholics just repeat what they're told is all. The bishop of Rome was just another bishop among many, important only because of the city it was in. It's called 'Roman Catholic' for a reason. It evolved into 'Catholic Church' purely through accumulated wealth and political power, not because Jesus appointed the bishop of Rome.

 

[ding]

Of course it is. Just because you made a list doesn't mean it's fact. It's a fiction. The Eastern Orthodox claim a lot of names, too.


Again doesn't address what I said. And to boot, some of those named were later condemned, lol. Nobody has claimed there was no early Christians. Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Empire. Neither Jesus nor Paul eve set foot in Rome. Most likely founder was Gregory, in around 600 A.D.

Again... the list of texts - that were written closer to the event - is long. No one disputed those texts when they were written.

Ignatius of Antioch, Dionysius of Corinth, Irenaeus, Gaius, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, The Little Labyrinth, The Poem Against the Marcionites, Eusebius of Caesarea, Peter of Alexandria, Lactantius, Cyril of Jerusalem, Optatus, Epiphanius of Salamis, Pope Damasus I, Jerome and Augustine say Peter did step foot in Rome.

Do you have any texts from antiquity that say Peter didn't set foot in Rome?

 

[DudleySmith]

Again... the list of texts - that were written closer to the event - is long. No one disputed those texts when they were written.

Now we've shifted the topic to texts, eh? lol now the texts were written by Catholics? lol where did I say anything when they were written? I've clearly said the orthodox claims of authenticity were the valid claims. Please cite where I said otherwise. These assorted dodges you're throwing out are pretty weak. that's because the Catholic Church wasn't the first, and came along much later, and forced a made up history on the West via Rome.

No list of eye witnesses, just people who wrote legends.

 

[DudleySmith]

Do you have any texts from antiquity that say Peter didn't set foot in Rome?

lol don't need one, since you can't provide any evidence he did. If he were there, Paul would said so, along with many other witnesses. Can you prove Jesus never set foot in Mexico City?

Is it likely that the apostle Peter went to Rome and founded the church there?​

Interestingly, the Bible says nothing about Peter ever traveling to Rome.


When the gospels end, Peter is in Jerusalem. It’s the same in the Book of Acts. The apostle Paul, in his letters, also talks about meeting Peter in the eastern Mediterranean. After Jesus’ death, Paul says that Jesus’ brother, James, and Peter are the co-leaders of the “church,” or assembly, of Jesus-followers in Jerusalem.


In short, there is no early textual evidence for Peter in Rome, so for some people, it’s very hard to believe that he ever traveled there. Not only is it a very long way, according to the New Testament, Peter was a fisherman who was not very educated and who spoke only Aramaic; he was not the type of person that might travel widely across the Roman Empire to a large city where Latin and Greek were the dominant languages.

The Apostle Peter in Rome

Brown University Religious Studies professor Nicola Denzey Lewis answers frequently asked questions about the apostle Peter

www.biblicalarchaeology.org

There is zero evidence Peter went anywhere, much less Rome. It's a fictional 'tradition'. Peter, John, and James remained in Jerusalem to preach to the Jews while Paul went out to the Gentiles and founded churches. The first bishop, or 'Pope', was James and in Jerusalem.

 

[zaangalewa]

If you ask 5 different Catholics to explain Catholocism, you will probably get 5 different expanations. It is the same for every Christian denomination. I feel that our focus should be on God, not the denomination that is the path to God.
I feel no denomination can say all of our adherents are the best Christians.

Explain humanism. Write it down. Then ask in years 5 people to explain humanism. Ask yourselve again and write down what is humanism. Compare it. ...

 

[zaangalewa]

... There is zero evidence Peter went anywhere, much less Rome. It's a fictional 'tradition'. Peter, John, and James remained in Jerusalem to preach to the Jews while Paul went out to the Gentiles and founded churches. The first bishop, or 'Pope', was James and in Jerusalem.

The patriarchates of Alexandria, Antioch and Rome, and later also Jerusalem and Constantinople, traced their foundation directly or indirectly back to Peter - independenr whether he had lived and/or died in Jerusalem, Rome or any other location. So why do you speak about a first bishop James in Jerusalem?

 

[zaangalewa]

2% of U.S. adults are converts to Catholicism – people who now identify as Catholic after having been raised in another religion (or no religion). This means that there are 6.5 former Catholics in the U.S. for every convert to the faith.Oct 10, 2018

It looks like only about 30,000 converts per year in the U.S. for a Church with over 50 million adults as members. While The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints had 212,172 converts in 2022. And, the total number of members in the U.S. is 6,804,000. Which is really truly a missionary Church? We have 62,000 full-time missionaries out converting throughout the world. The Catholic Church isn't much of a missionary Church like Jesus Called the 12 Apostles to be and go out to the d4 corners of the earth.

The Mormons are no Christians for example. So what do you really compare?

And to your numbers: Catholics in the USA 2013: 21.8 percent of the population. 2022: 23.1%. Population in 2013 had been 316,129,000 and in 2022 ... damn ... and in 2021: 331,893,745 (the population in in 2022 was a little higher I guess). 21.8 percent of 316,129,000 = 68,916,122 and 23.1% of 331,893,745 = 76,667,455. About 7 million in 10 years is about 700,000 every year and not 30,000. So what do you really statistilie here? Looks like one day in a far future all US-Americans will become Catholics if the Catholics in the USA will continue to win in about 10 years 6% more members. Bad prophecy now for you, isn't it? But don't worry: God will always love you - independent from your own love for him or his children. But the less you love the more far you are from him.

How much Christmas should it be?

 

[Meriweather]

And none of you get Jews.

The reason no one gets the faith of anyone else may be due to them searching for what is wrong with that faith when what is right about it is in front of them, apparently hiding in plain sight.

 

[Cougarbear]

is the book of macabees in the protestant bibles? i could argue that the vulgate and its english translation duay are more complete than an


y protestant scripture.

I’m not sure what you are trying to say. She asked what books did the Catholic Church remove, not the Protestants.

 

[Cougarbear]

The Mormons are no Christians for example. So what do you really compare?

And to your numbers: Catholics in the USA 2013: 21.8 percent of the population. 2022: 23.1%. Population in 2013 had been 316,129,000 and in 2022 ... damn ... and in 2021: 331,893,745 (the population in in 2022 was a little higher I guess). 21.8 percent of 316,129,000 = 68,916,122 and 23.1% of 331,893,745 = 76,667,455. About 7 million in 10 years is about 700,000 every year and not 30,000. So what do you really statistilie here? Looks like one day in a far future all US-Americans will become Catholics if the Catholics in the USA will continue to win in about 10 years 6% more members. Bad prophecy now for you, isn't it? But don't worry: God will always love you - independent from your own love for him or his children. But the less you love the more far you are from him.

How much Christmas should it be?

The name of the church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Does your church have the name of the Lord in it? Probably not. This, to say we aren’t Christian is just plain stupid. Stupid is as stupid does.

 

[there4eyeM]

If anything, all the apostles were the 'stone' that formed churches.

 

[ElmerMudd]

The name of the church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Does your church have the name of the Lord in it? Probably not. This, to say we aren’t Christian is just plain stupid. Stupid is as stupid does.

Christians define what and who is Christian in many, different, ways. It is mortal man playing God. At the end of the day it will not be mortal man who decides how we have followed the teachings of God. It will be God.

 

[Cougarbear]

Christians define what and who is Christian in many, different, ways. It is mortal man playing God. At the end of the day it will not be mortal man who decides how we have followed the teachings of God. It will be God.

So, which Christians? There are 40,000 different sects around the world. Which ones? You are a mortal man who is defining what it is to be Christian. If you say that the Bible decides, then what criteria in the Bible are you using? Just the parts that make you the judge what will be used? In the Bible, it says that the scriptures are not for private interpretation. That means we should not reject anything in the Bible. However, this doesn't mean that one interpretation cancels out another's. As long as you believe Jesus Christ is Lord God and the Savior and Redeemer of those who confess that He is the Redeemer, then you are Christian. Is the way you do ordinances like Baptism or the Sacraments make you any less Christian? No. Is the way you do them right or wrong? Yes. And, that is the debate we should be having. Not if you are more Christian than I am. That's stupid.

 

[Cougarbear]

If anything, all the apostles were the 'stone' that formed churches.

The Stone or Rock of Israel is Jesus Christ. The little rock, Peter, was called to be his prophet once he left the earth. Thus, the foundation of the Church is based on Apostles and Prophets with Jesus Christ being the Chief Cornerstone. However, the foundation crumbled and after John's departure from mortality to immortality, there was no more a foundation for the Church. Bishops are not foundations. Cardinals are not apostles either. The pope has never claimed to be a the prophet of God nor an apostle. So, all those who came out of the Catholic Church established non-foundational churches as well. Are they all Christians? Sure! But, they have no foundation and thus no authority to act in Christ's name for any ordinance they perform.

 

[DudleySmith]

The patriarchates of Alexandria, Antioch and Rome, and later also Jerusalem and Constantinople, traced their foundation directly or indirectly back to Peter - independenr whether he had lived and/or died in Jerusalem, Rome or any other location. So why do you speak about a first bishop James in Jerusalem?

When somebody who isn't stupid asks, I might answer.

 

[ElmerMudd]

So, which Christians? There are 40,000 different sects around the world. Which ones? You are a mortal man who is defining what it is to be Christian. If you say that the Bible decides, then what criteria in the Bible are you using? Just the parts that make you the judge what will be used? In the Bible, it says that the scriptures are not for private interpretation. That means we should not reject anything in the Bible. However, this doesn't mean that one interpretation cancels out another's. As long as you believe Jesus Christ is Lord God and the Savior and Redeemer of those who confess that He is the Redeemer, then you are Christian. Is the way you do ordinances like Baptism or the Sacraments make you any less Christian? No. Is the way you do them right or wrong? Yes. And, that is the debate we should be having. Not if you are more Christian than I am. That's stupid.

I do not pretend to define who is Christian.
I responded to a post where one individual said Mormon's are not Christians and the Morman said yes we are. I don't know.
Some Christians say if you believe someone can get to Heaven without accepting Jesus as your savior and the son of God, you are not a Christian.
Many Christians make moral judgements on people's lives. Even if they take Jesus as their savior and son of God, they are not Christian, according to them

I do not know, only God knows.

It is interesting that Christianity, Judaism and Islam all descended from Abraham. The Jews took Abrahams's teachings and started their religion. After the birth of Jesus Christ, Christians used Abraham's teachings to say the only religion are those who take Jesus as your savior and the son of God. Then Mohammed came along and said the Jews and Christians are wrong and used the teaching of Abraham, and others, to start Islam.

Within Christianity, Judism and Islam, people differed on the teachings within their own religion. They, then, broke off with sub-divisions within each religion because they think they know what the true God wants. Everybody cannot be right.

 

[airplanemechanic]

I'm a former catholic who changed over to protestant. I was a catholic for decades so I know exactly what it's about. Or more importantly, what it's NOT about. It's not about the bible.

The problems I had with Catholics:

1. They worship Mary. Mary was NOT holy. She was blessed, but not holy. So "holy Mary mother of God" is a pile a crap.

2. They do things that simply are NOT in the bible. One thing is they PRAY to Mary. That is in direct conflict with one of the 10 commandments, "thou shall not take anyone else as your God". The bible clearly states you may pray to the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit. THAT'S IT.

3. They have a pope. Find the word "pope" in the bible. Doesn't exist. Who the hell is a pope?

4. They say that praying the rosary will forgive sins. The bible clearly states that no Earthly acts, other than asking God for forgiveness, will forgive sins. Where do they get this crap?

5. My mom does this crap and it bothers the hell out of me. They pray to people who are not God. Or Jesus. Or the HS. My mom will sit there and pray to her dead mother. I asked her, "Why are you praying to a dead sinner?" She always asks her mom to protect me on the roads. I asked her to please ask God for that, not my dead grandmother. She is violating the same commandment about having someone else as your God. If you're praying to someone who isn't God, THAT is your God.

6. They say that if you're not catholic, you're not going to heaven. NO other denomination of Christianity says this. So screw Catholics.

I could go on and on, but I have better things to do than explain why Catholics are simply whack.

 

[Cougarbear]

I do not pretend to define who is Christian.
I responded to a post where one individual said Mormon's are not Christians and the Morman said yes we are. I don't know.
Some Christians say if you believe someone can get to Heaven without accepting Jesus as your savior and the son of God, you are not a Christian.
Many Christians make moral judgements on people's lives. Even if they take Jesus as their savior and son of God, they are not Christian, according to them

I do not know, only God knows.

It is interesting that Christianity, Judaism and Islam all descended from Abraham. The Jews took Abrahams's teachings and started their religion. After the birth of Jesus Christ, Christians used Abraham's teachings to say the only religion are those who take Jesus as your savior and the son of God. Then Mohammed came along and said the Jews and Christians are wrong and used the teaching of Abraham, and others, to start Islam.

Within Christianity, Judism and Islam, people differed on the teachings within their own religion. They, then, broke off with sub-divisions within each religion because they think they know what the true God wants. Everybody cannot be right.

It's interesting that when you study the definition of what or who is a Christian, you get several different definitions. Some say it's someone who believes in Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. Some associate being Christian based on the ordinances a person has had performed like Baptism. And, they use Christian in the definition "Christian baptism." Others believe the definition should include those who behave as Jesus would. With 40,000 different sects you could have 40,000 different definitions.

As to "Mormons," they are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There are splinter groups as well that claim to be Mormon. Mormon is one of the people named in The Book of Mormon, another Testament of Jesus Christ. Members of the Church do not call themselves "Mormons." Instead, "Latter-day Saints" or LDS is more commonly used to distinguish from the former days of Christ as members of Christ's Church. Members worship the Father in the name of the Son, Jesus Christ. They use as Doctrine, the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants. Those are the four standard works used in the Church.

The Church was organized in 1830 by Joseph Smith. 10 years earlier, he went to a grove to pray to God and ask which Church has the truth and authority. Which is correct? He read James chapter one where it says how to pray and ask God questions. So, he did at an age of 14. He received a vision where the Father came to him and introduced Jesus Christ (Jehovah) to him and said to hear him. Jesus said to join none of the churches for they are all wrong. Meaning, they have not his authority to perform the ordinances such as baptism. That there was a great apostasy after the apostles were gone after his crucifixion. He was told that through him as the Lord's prophet in these latter days the Church of Jesus Christ would be restored and this would be the times of the restitution of all things that God had established at some point since the times of Adam and Eve. During that time, Joseph was tutored by an angel Moroni who is also in the Book of Mormon. Then, the plates of writings of prophets in the Americas from 600 BC and 421 AD were given to him and he translated and received revelations to give them to the word in English. Since then, it's been translated to many other languages. It includes a time when Jesus came to the Americas after his crucifixion and resurrection.

So, "Mormons" are definitely Christian. We believe in Jesus Christ.