It's a False Doctrine That People Go To Heaven Immediately After Death

[hortysir]

I agree with Marc

I see no Scriptural evidence of a 'purgatory' or 'limbo'

I only see "hades" as a pit or grave...where we all go until final judgement day.
Notice I didn't say final judgement dayS. There is only one. Not a different one for every person

 

[MarcATL]

I agree with Marc

I see no Scriptural evidence of a 'purgatory' or 'limbo'

I only see "hades" as a pit or grave...where we all go until final judgement day.
Notice I didn't say final judgement dayS. There is only one. Not a different one for every person

Thanks Brother hortysir, however, I have to insist that it's not even about agreeing w/me or not, it's strictly about what Scripture says.

Like you said, there's no evidence of that doctrine at all. In fact, all doctrine is CLEARLY against that false belief of purgatory...amongst other things.

 

[peach174]

You body goes to dust. Your bones remain.
You soul goes to paradise or hades


Luke 23:43 - Jesus said to the thief on the cross “Today you will be with me in Paradise.” So Jesus went immediately to Paradise when he died as well as the thief.

Acts 2:27,31 “For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption … he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.” Jesus died and while his physical body reposed in the tomb, he (his soul) went to Hades (the unseen world of the dead). He did not remain in Hades, however. On the third day he returned from Hades, being raised from the dead.

3. Luke 16 and the story of the rich man and Lazarus - "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom … Abraham said, … between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us. ”

We see here that Paradise was not the same as Hades, but rather one of two compartments located within Hades. Lazarus died and went to “Abraham’s bosom”. That should correspond to Paradise where the thief on the cross went when he died. The rich man died and went to Hades, but he was in torment and not Paradise. There was a division between the two places, Torment and Paradise, so that no one could pass from one to the other.

The reasoned conclusion is that all the spirits of all who die will go to Paradise or Hades.


One day, Jesus will return to raise the bodies of those who died, both the saved and the lost ("Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” John 5:28,29) and then He will judge all men "because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead." Acts 17:31).

The lost (those in the torment side of Hades) will go to their eternal punishment (Hell) but the saved (those in the Paradise side of Hades) will go to their eternal reward in Heaven. “And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." – (Matthew 25:46).

The dead (our bones) will be raised and then have everlasting bodies with our souls.

James 2:26 – “the body without the spirit is dead”. Death is when the spirit abandons the body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 “Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.”

Luke 23:46 “And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, ‘Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.' Having said this, He breathed His last.”

 

[The Irish Ram]

I agree with Marc

I see no Scriptural evidence of a 'purgatory' or 'limbo'

I only see "hades" as a pit or grave...where we all go until final judgment day.
Notice I didn't say final judgment dayS. There is only one. Not a different one for every person

Thanks Brother hortysir, however, I have to insist that it's not even about agreeing w/me or not, it's strictly about what Scripture says.

Like you said, there's no evidence of that doctrine at all. In fact, all doctrine is CLEARLY against that false belief of purgatory...amongst other things.

When Christ died He went to Abraham's Bosom which was referred to as Paradise, to collect those who favored God, and He spoke to the souls in Hades. There was a deep chasm that separated the two areas so no one could cross from one place to the other, but they could speak to one another. Those souls that had died without favoring God were all in one place. The bodies of those souls in Hades still remain buried to this day.
The souls of those in Paradise were reunited with the bodies that they inhabited on earth and were rendered immortal, just as Christ retains His immortal body. They returned with Him to earth and then ascended with Him to Heaven.
Those in Paradise were unable to ascend to Heaven until Christ paid for their sins, and broke through the barrier of death. He descended to gather them and bring them back with Him.

Those souls who have died in Christ since Christ's work on the cross go straight up to Heaven. There is no need for a temporary shelter. There is coming a time when those souls will be reunited with their bodies also and will return with Christ at His second coming.
For instance, John saw the souls of those that will be martyred during the tribulation in Heaven, because there is no longer a need to wait until our sins are forgiven as Abraham, David and the others had to do.

The earth will give up it's dead, those in Hades, at the time of the White Throne Judgment.

If Hades was a grave there would be no way for those in Hades to have spoken to Abraham or listened to Christ.
Here is a description of both places:

Luke 16:19-26
“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.

Paradise is no longer necessary. Hades is.
If Hades was a grave Christ would not have been able to address them as the grave is a singular place. Christ spoke to the spirits which is plural.

1Peter 3:19
...by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison

If you belonged to Christ while you were here on earth, your last breath here is your first breath in Heaven.

Paul said of believers, that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The Lord is sitting to the right of God in Heaven.

 

[hortysir]

I agree with Marc

I see no Scriptural evidence of a 'purgatory' or 'limbo'

I only see "hades" as a pit or grave...where we all go until final judgment day.
Notice I didn't say final judgment dayS. There is only one. Not a different one for every person

Thanks Brother hortysir, however, I have to insist that it's not even about agreeing w/me or not, it's strictly about what Scripture says.

Like you said, there's no evidence of that doctrine at all. In fact, all doctrine is CLEARLY against that false belief of purgatory...amongst other things.

When Christ died He went to Abraham's Bosom which was referred to as Paradise, to collect those who favored God, and He spoke to the souls in Hades. There was a deep chasm that separated the two areas so no one could cross from one place to the other, but they could speak to one another. Those souls that had died without favoring God were all in one place. The bodies of those souls in Hades still remain buried to this day.
The souls of those in Paradise were reunited with the bodies that they inhabited on earth and were rendered immortal, just as Christ retains His immortal body. They returned with Him to earth and then ascended with Him to Heaven.
Those in Paradise were unable to ascend to Heaven until Christ paid for their sins, and broke through the barrier of death. He descended to gather them and bring them back with Him.

Those souls who have died in Christ since Christ's work on the cross go straight up to Heaven. There is no need for a temporary shelter. There is coming a time when those souls will be reunited with their bodies also and will return with Christ at His second coming.
For instance, John saw the souls of those that will be martyred during the tribulation in Heaven, because there is no longer a need to wait until our sins are forgiven as Abraham, David and the others had to do.

The earth will give up it's dead, those in Hades, at the time of the White Throne Judgment.

If Hades was a grave there would be no way for those in Hades to have spoken to Abraham or listened to Christ.
Here is a description of both places:

Luke 16:19-26
“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.

Paradise is no longer necessary. Hades is.
If Hades was a grave Christ would not have been able to address them as the grave is a singular place. Christ spoke to the spirits which is plural.

1Peter 3:19
...by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison

If you belonged to Christ while you were here on earth, your last breath here is your first breath in Heaven.

Paul said of believers, that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The Lord is sitting to the right of God in Heaven.

IR, please understand that I am not intentionally arguing semantics with you...just merely voicing my own opinions based on my own teachings and interpretations

I would like to address the portion I bolded further;
What of "those dead in Christ will rise first"?
Rise from where, if not the pit/grave?

And to the second statement I bolded;
That was explained to me as your "breath of life", not your eternal soul, returning to the One that gave it to you.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Or hell for that matter.

You guys do realize that don't you?

I'm here watching the service live and it's just one false doctrine after the other.

Christiandom as it's today is in a state of confusion.

It's more about the incompatible nature of Judaism and Christianity. In Judaism, when we die we're immediately judged and either proceed to the world to come, or not. Numerous stories relate how the dead did in fact go to 'heaven.' But in Christianity it's said you stay in the ground (or sea) until Judgement Day. So they changed what was originally written. My favorite theologically story is called "Mother and Nest" and relates this fact.

Mother and Nest - Life's Passages - Parsha

Mother and Nest

By Chana Weisberg

"Taking the child within the sight of the mother would cause the mother acute pain. A mother's love and compassion for her offspring is, in Maimonides' words, "not a function of the intellect or speech, but a function of the thought process that exists in animals as well as in people."

By performing this mitzvah, we are training ourselves to feel empathy for all G-d's creations.

According to the Zohar, this commandment also has a profound cosmic impact by arousing heavenly mercy for the Jewish people.

When the mother bird is driven from her nest, she cries bitterly and despairingly over her separation from her young.

The angel appointed over this species appears before the heavenly throne and complains: "Merciful One, why has Your Torah ordered such a callous act?"

The angels designated over the other bird species take up the protest, objecting to their birds meeting the same fate.

G-d then reprimands all the heavenly hosts: "The angels in charge of the birds complain against the birds' plight. But why has none of you expressed concern over the anguish of My sons and the Shechinah (Divine Presence)?

"The Shechinah is exiled. She is alienated from Her nest and home, the Holy Temple. My sons, the fledglings, dwell alone among their enemies, the nations of the world. But none among you cry out to arouse My compassion for them!

"For My own sake, then, I will redeem them!"

The holy Zohar records a miraculous story, about a time when Divine compassion was aroused through this commandment.

Rabbi Elazar, the son of Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai, was walking with his colleagues when a dove appeared. The dove informed Rabbi Elazar that his father-in-law, Rabbi Yosi, had fallen seriously ill.

Rabbi Elazar ordered the dove to assure Rabbi Yosi that in three days he would miraculously recover, and Rabbi Elazar and his colleagues would then arrive at his home to celebrate.

Soon afterwards, the distressed dove returned to inform them that since Rabbi Elazar had annulled the heavenly decree hanging over his father-in-law, the angel of death had taken in his stead another Rabbi Yosi--Rabbi Yosi of Pekiyin.

Hearing this tragic news, Rabbi Elazar decided to travel to Pekiyin to comfort Rabbi Yosi's family and to personally take part in the burial of this great sage.

Upon their arrival, the rabbis were informed that Rabbi Yosi was survived by a young son and daughter. Rabbi Yosi's wife, the mother of these two young children, had died a short time before, and these youngsters were now doubly orphaned.

In the room where the departed lay, the son would not allow anyone near his father's body. He laid his head close to his father's and wept bitterly and uncontrollably. Looking heavenward, he declared:

"Master of the Universe, You wrote in your holy Torah these words:

"'If you chance upon a bird's nest, in any tree or on the ground, with fledglings or eggs, and the mother is sitting over the fledglings or on the eggs, do not take the mother together with her young. Let the mother go and take only the young...'

"Master of the Universe! According to your holy Torah, we must let the mother live, and surely we must not take the mother and leave the children unattended.

"You, G-d, must fulfill the words of Your holy Torah. My sister and I are two little birds. My mother has died, and so our father has taken her place to care for us.

"According to Your Torah, dear G-d, You may take either me or my sister, but You may not take away my beloved father!"

Hearing the poignant plea of this innocent child, Rabbi Elazar's colleagues began to weep.

Suddenly, the room became silent, as a pillar of fire appeared, hovering over the bed of the departed. Everyone in the room ran out, and Rabbi Elazar's frightened colleagues wanted to do the same.

Rabbi Elazar calmed them, saying, "A great miracle is about to occur."

Out of the fiery pillar, a heavenly voice sounded: "Fortunate are you, Rabbi Yosi, to merit such a wise son whose justified complaints split the gates of heaven, ascending before G-d's Throne of Glory.

"A new verdict has been passed. You, Rabbi Yosi, will live twenty-two more years, in order to have the privilege of teaching this wise child."

Then, as suddenly as it had descended, the pillar disappeared, as Rabbi Yosi's eyes fluttered open.

Rabbi Elazar exclaimed to his friends, "How fortunate are we to have witnessed with our own eyes the miracle of the dead coming to life!"

Rabbi Elazar then blessed Rabbi Yosi, "How fortunate are you to have experienced the miracle of the resurrection of the dead because of the wisdom of your young son!"

Meanwhile, the young child had fainted from the overwhelming events. When he awoke, it was impossible for him to fully express his elation, as he smothered his father with hugs and kisses.

Rabbi Elazar remained for three days to celebrate. During this time, he asked Rabbi Yosi to describe what he had observed in the heavens.

Rabbi Yosi replied, "I may not disclose to human ears what I have seen. I can only reveal that when my son was pleading, weeping and protesting to G-d from the depths of his being with utter sincerity, and he referred to the mitzvah of sending the mother bird away, three-hundred thousand heavenly chairs shook, as three-hundred thousand tzaddikim (righteous individuals) stood up in the heavens, begging G-d to return me to the living!"

"And those that repose in dust will come to life" (Isaiah 26:19)

The cry of one earnest, sincere, orphaned child who longed to be rejoined with his father was all it took. The tender voice of the young son of Rabbi Yosi of Pekiyin broke through the heavens and stormed directly to the Throne of Glory to perform an unexpected miracle.

Certainly, then, the earnest, sincere cry of each of us, G-d's orphaned children, can ascend to the very heavens and bring upon us the promised Era of Redemption that we have awaited for so long. Certainly, our sincere pleas, too, will evoke the many hundreds of thousands of tzaddikim to storm the heavens to bring upon us this epoch.

And then, we will no longer experience the orphaned child's sad cries, or exile's harsh pains, as the good in all of creation will become openly manifest and revealed."

 

[Avatar4321]

What's your answer to:

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

....????
This is expressed in different terms in the various versions of the bible....but they essentially shoot down your argument that people aren't there already.

Easy. Paradise isn't heaven or hell.

How do I know this? Because three days later when the Lord has risen from the dead He told Mary not to touch Him since He still had not ascended to heaven to see His Father. So if Christ was to meet the theif in paradise. It was somewhere else.

Paradise is the place the righteous dead dwell as they await the resurrection. It's also been called Abraham's Bosom in the Gospel of Luke.

The counter part is Prison, where the wicked dwell that Peter mentioned in his Epistle teaching that Christ visited the Spirit's in prison and declared their liberty between His death and resurrection.

Sounds like you're preaching a purgatory doctrine here. If so, then that's another false doctrine not backed up by Scripture.

Except of course those scriptures i pointed to in my post. And the ones peach cited. You can deny them all you want but they don't just disappear because you do.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Good Christian page about this question here:
Don Stewart :: Did the Old Testament Believers Go Immediately to Heaven When They Died?

"Enoch And Elijah

We know that two Old Testament characters, Enoch and Elijah, did not die but were taken into the presence of God. When Elijah arrived in heaven he certainly found others apart from God and Enoch!

General Resurrection

The idea of a general resurrection of the dead was taught in the Old Testament.

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2)

Righteous With God In Heaven

There are, however, passages that seem to speak of the righteous entering the presence of the Lord. David wrote.

Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever (Psalm 23:6).


The house of the Lord may be a reference to heaven.

Be With God

The psalmist believed his spirit would be with God in the next world.

You guide me with Your counsel, and afterward You will take me into glory. Whom have I in heaven but You? And earth has nothing I desire besides You (Psalm 73:24,25).

Summary

The righteous who died before the coming of Christ are now in God's presence. As to whether they were in heaven before He came, or in some other place of blessing, the Bible does not clearly say. The information is not sufficient to make any conclusion.

 

[hobelim]

I agree with Marc

I see no Scriptural evidence of a 'purgatory' or 'limbo'

I only see "hades" as a pit or grave...where we all go until final judgement day.
Notice I didn't say final judgement dayS. There is only one. Not a different one for every person

Hades is the realm of the dead. If the consequences for setting aside the commands of God is death than anyone who has worshipped false Gods or has mislead others unto doing the same is scripturally dead and has descended into the netherworld ever since the day they first defied divine law. This is the first death, the second death is death of the body.

Any rational person here who has ever tried to have a conversation with some of the more devout believers here has seen with their own eyes the disturbing effects on the mind of a person who has descended into hades.


If at some point if a person learns that there is no santa claus or tooth fairy and then begins to question whether one God could be three beings, or if a virgin could give birth without the other 23 chromosomes required to form a human child and decides to live a more rational life and leave whatever perverse faith they were taught to believe and imitate since birth then they have scripturally risen from the dead.

Purgatory would be that indeterminate time after this first resurrection from the tomb of false religious beliefs and degrading religious practices and before they see evidence of the divine providence in this life promised to those who live righteous lives, evidence that they are accepted by God.

And as far as the final judgment, what judgment can anyone expect aside from the judgments of God that have already been revealed from the beginning?


If what Jesus said is true then those who have taken part in the first resurrection do not come under judgment because they have already passed from death to eternal life, a new existence that will not end upon death of the body.

 

[rightwinger]

Who wants to go to heaven immediately after death?

I want to stick around and haunt people

 

[MarcATL]

Easy. Paradise isn't heaven or hell.

How do I know this? Because three days later when the Lord has risen from the dead He told Mary not to touch Him since He still had not ascended to heaven to see His Father. So if Christ was to meet the theif in paradise. It was somewhere else.

Paradise is the place the righteous dead dwell as they await the resurrection. It's also been called Abraham's Bosom in the Gospel of Luke.

The counter part is Prison, where the wicked dwell that Peter mentioned in his Epistle teaching that Christ visited the Spirit's in prison and declared their liberty between His death and resurrection.

Sounds like you're preaching a purgatory doctrine here. If so, then that's another false doctrine not backed up by Scripture.

Except of course those scriptures i pointed to in my post. And the ones peach cited. You can deny them all you want but they don't just disappear because you do.

That's nice, but as usual, you didn't answer the direct question.

Let me try again...this time even more directly.

Were you suggesting/preaching/teaching some form of the purgatory doctrine?

Yes or no?

 

[hangover]

It's a False Doctrine That People Go To Heaven Immediately After Death

Unless you are God, you're talking out of your ass.

 

[koshergrl]

How do you know? Have you died?

I base all my beliefs on God's Word...The Bible.

What do you base your beliefs on sir?

Christ tells the sinner on the cross that they would be together in heaven that day.

We don't have to wait around.

 

[MarcATL]

How do you know? Have you died?

I base all my beliefs on God's Word...The Bible.

What do you base your beliefs on sir?

Christ tells the sinner on the cross that they would be together in heaven that day.

We don't have to wait around.

If that's the case, then who are the "dead in Christ" that Jesus is coming back for when He returns?

 

[Chuckt]

I base all my beliefs on God's Word...The Bible.

What do you base your beliefs on sir?

Christ tells the sinner on the cross that they would be together in heaven that day.

We don't have to wait around.

If that's the case, then who are the "dead in Christ" that Jesus is coming back for when He returns?

Marc,

The body sleeps. The soul goes to live with the Lord:

At death, the body lies in repose in the grave awaiting the resurrection of the last day, but the soul goes to be at home with the Lord. This is the doctrine of the intermediate state. Believers experience in a provisional sense the rewards that await them in heaven, while unbelievers experience a taste of their eternal torment in hell (Luke 16:19–31).

Who are the dead in Christ in 1 Thessalonians 4:16?

Chuck

 

[hobelim]

I base all my beliefs on God's Word...The Bible.

What do you base your beliefs on sir?

Christ tells the sinner on the cross that they would be together in heaven that day.

We don't have to wait around.

If that's the case, then who are the "dead in Christ" that Jesus is coming back for when He returns?

Good question.


Jesus compared himself to the bronze serpent lifted up by Moses which is a story about the people degenerating into idolatry during the time of testing in the wilderness which shows that Jesus knew that worship involving his name would similarly degenerate into idolatry which it has ever since Jesus was declared to be an edible triune god by the Roman Church.

If the consequence for worshiping false gods, bearing false witness, murder, etc., is death then perhaps these lost souls are the 'dead in Christ' who are supposed to be the first to rise.

 

[Avatar4321]

Sounds like you're preaching a purgatory doctrine here. If so, then that's another false doctrine not backed up by Scripture.

Except of course those scriptures i pointed to in my post. And the ones peach cited. You can deny them all you want but they don't just disappear because you do.

That's nice, but as usual, you didn't answer the direct question.

Let me try again...this time even more directly.

Were you suggesting/preaching/teaching some form of the purgatory doctrine?

Yes or no?

I really don't see the point repeating myself. But there is a place where our spirits dwell to await the resurrection of the death. The scriptures describe this place as a paradise or a prison, depending on the state of our souls. You could call this place purgatory, chocolate ice cream, or whatever you want. I've already given you the references. I don't know how I can be any clearer.

 

[Avatar4321]

It's a False Doctrine That People Go To Heaven Immediately After Death

Unless you are God, you're talking out of your ass.

Funny, there are almost 8 billion people on this planet who aren't God and I'm pretty sure they all talk out of their mouth, atleast if they do talk at all.

 

[Avatar4321]

How do you know? Have you died?

I base all my beliefs on God's Word...The Bible.

What do you base your beliefs on sir?

Christ tells the sinner on the cross that they would be together in heaven that day.

We don't have to wait around.

No. He said they would be in paradise that day. Paradise and Heaven are not the same place. How do we know? Because after the Resurrection Christ said He had still not ascended to Heaven.

If after the resurrection Christ had still not been to heaven, then clearly either Paradise is a different place than heaven, or Christ lied to the theif. I am not going to seriously consider the argument that the Holy one of Israel is a liar.

 

[Avatar4321]

Christ tells the sinner on the cross that they would be together in heaven that day.

We don't have to wait around.

If that's the case, then who are the "dead in Christ" that Jesus is coming back for when He returns?

Marc,

The body sleeps. The soul goes to live with the Lord:

At death, the body lies in repose in the grave awaiting the resurrection of the last day, but the soul goes to be at home with the Lord. This is the doctrine of the intermediate state. Believers experience in a provisional sense the rewards that await them in heaven, while unbelievers experience a taste of their eternal torment in hell (Luke 16:19–31).

Who are the dead in Christ in 1 Thessalonians 4:16?

Chuck

The soul is the body and spirit united as one. Without the body the soul is incomplete.