Israel’s proposed Jewish nation-state law hits hurdle

[Lipush]

How is that discriminatory? it changes nothing in the status quo

You're assuming the status quo isn't discriminatory then?

Yes.

Are there any rights given to Israeli Jews, that are denied from Israeli non-Jews?

Well now we need to define who is an Israeli , don't we, (according to you Jew is a religion, or a person who practices Judaism since you are a convert- Is this correct)

Whose does the Israeli people include?

Well that depends on definition, and it's not my place to tell who is worthy of being called Israeli and who's not.

Fact that the law may point some issue doesn't mean it's not good.

I get confused with you, you say you became a Jew but your grandparents and your parents were sent to Israel, in the 1800's to work a farm. So you were born of a Jewish mother, and that would make you a Jew. You were born and raised there, so have every right to live there in my book, but when you said you became a Jew was it that you meant, you became a Jew who practiced Judaism? If this is too personal just say so.

I can explain better, but what does it have to do with the thread? If I was Christian or Arab, it would have mattered just the same?...

 

[Lipush]

On 3 August 2011, Dichter filed, together with another 39 Knesset members, the proposed Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People[1] which seeks to determine the nature of the state of Israel as the Jewish people, and as such it interprets the term "Jewish and democratic state" which appears in the Israeli basic laws Basic Law: Freedom of Occupation and Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty. According to the proposal, Israel will be defined as the nation state of the Jewish people, and in order to prevent Israel from becoming a Binational state, the proposal says that the right to self-determination in Israel would be unique to the Jewish people. The proposal also states that the state of Israel should establish ethnic communities where every resident can preserve its culture and heritage, that the Hebrew language would be considered the only official language of the state of Israel (while the Arabic language would be of a special status), that the Hebrew calendar would become the official calendar of the state of Israel, and that the Hebrew law would serve as an inspiration to Israeli legislators. The bill is currently in early legislative stages and still has not passed a preliminary reading...

The bill's clauses

• Sections 1-2 of the bill detail the principles for which the law was established: "Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people in which the Jewish people fulfill their ambition to self-determination according to their cultural and historical legacy."
• Section 3 regulates the state's symbols - the flag, the anthem and the Emblem of Israel.
• Section 4 stipulates that Hebrew is the only official language of the state of Israel while the Arabic language would be of a "special status".
• Section 5 establishes the Law of Return as part of Israel's Basic Laws.
• Sections 6-7 deal with the relations between the state of Israel and the Jewish diaspora as well as Israel's responsibility for in-gathering world Jewry.
• Sections 8-9 deal with the state's obligation to preserve the Jewish heritage.
• Sections 10-11-12 regulate the Hebrew calendar, holidays and memorial days.
• Section 13 - provides that in a case of a Laconic phrase in the Israeli law, the Israeli court system would use the Jewish law as a source of inspiration.
• Section 14 - deals with the state's obligation to protect the holy places of all faiths located within the territory of Israel.

...

Basic Law proposal Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Two minor changes I would put there-

1. I don't think you should change the status of the Arab language. I used to find it blessed, but if we swet so much blood over this, I find it redundant. Let them keep Arabic formal, what's the damage there, anyway?

2. Section 13- The Knesset keeps a Laconic prase in the Israeli law for a reason, at many cases, because they don't think they can find answers to certain question, or either they don't WANT to find them. I don't tink adressing the Jewish law in those cases can offer the best solution. At cases it can, but in others, we can learn from other western law-makers. Automatically deciding that the Hebrew law is the correct answer.....meh, I would hasitate.

Besides that, I'm good

 

[Penelope]

You're assuming the status quo isn't discriminatory then?

Yes.

Are there any rights given to Israeli Jews, that are denied from Israeli non-Jews?

Well now we need to define who is an Israeli , don't we, (according to you Jew is a religion, or a person who practices Judaism since you are a convert- Is this correct)

Whose does the Israeli people include?

Well that depends on definition, and it's not my place to tell who is worthy of being called Israeli and who's not.

Fact that the law may point some issue doesn't mean it's not good.

I get confused with you, you say you became a Jew but your grandparents and your parents were sent to Israel, in the 1800's to work a farm. So you were born of a Jewish mother, and that would make you a Jew. You were born and raised there, so have every right to live there in my book, but when you said you became a Jew was it that you meant, you became a Jew who practiced Judaism? If this is too personal just say so.

I can explain better, but what does it have to do with the thread? If I was Christian or Arab, it would have mattered just the same?...

well your right, but to try and understand your viewpoint. To label a country as Jewish is in my opinion wrong, we can call one Jewish like we call Saudi Arabia Muslim but the country name is not Muslim. Whether the Jew is a race or a religion is debatable with everyone.

Why you gov. insists upon this is the question. Your PM can take some lessons from the President of the ACLU here in the states who by the way is a Jew. For the PLO to recognize Israel as a Jewish states declares themselves a minority living in a Jewish state.

 

[Lipush]

Yes.

Are there any rights given to Israeli Jews, that are denied from Israeli non-Jews?

Well now we need to define who is an Israeli , don't we, (according to you Jew is a religion, or a person who practices Judaism since you are a convert- Is this correct)

Whose does the Israeli people include?

Well that depends on definition, and it's not my place to tell who is worthy of being called Israeli and who's not.

Fact that the law may point some issue doesn't mean it's not good.

I get confused with you, you say you became a Jew but your grandparents and your parents were sent to Israel, in the 1800's to work a farm. So you were born of a Jewish mother, and that would make you a Jew. You were born and raised there, so have every right to live there in my book, but when you said you became a Jew was it that you meant, you became a Jew who practiced Judaism? If this is too personal just say so.

I can explain better, but what does it have to do with the thread? If I was Christian or Arab, it would have mattered just the same?...

well your right, but to try and understand your viewpoint. To label a country as Jewish is in my opinion wrong, we can call one Jewish like we call Saudi Arabia Muslim but the country name is not Muslim. Whether the Jew is a race or a religion is debatable with everyone.

Why you gov. insists upon this is the question. Your PM can take some lessons from the President of the ACLU here in the states who by the way is a Jew. For the PLO to recognize Israel as a Jewish states declares themselves a minority living in a Jewish state.

I think the fact that Israel is the home of the Jewish people being stated in law is important, and comes in order to decrease the future possibility of hostile take over by our enemies.

That being said, it changes nothing in the domestic issues, as non-Jews have the same social rights as Jews in Israel, I don't see anything changing due to this basic law. The most important being the law of human dignity and security, and that's not about to change. So it's pretty much, "much to do about nothing".

As for myself, I was converted when adopted by my Israeli parents, full and legal conversion, when I was about 3 months old, but I was also lucky and unlucky to be considered the "most favorite granddaughter" of my grandparents, so what they left me and what they left for their other remaining offspring (from my uncles' side) wasn't equal, due to the fact that I was the one to take care and love them most among the other grandkids, and that's I say with pride in my heart and tears in my throat. So I see their struggles and suffering as my own, rightfully so.

 

[fanger]

They adopted you to be the shabat goy. but also had you registered as a Jew, Mazel Tov

 

[Lipush]

Whatever was the reason, it's none of your goddamn business.

 

[Penelope]

Well now we need to define who is an Israeli , don't we, (according to you Jew is a religion, or a person who practices Judaism since you are a convert- Is this correct)

Whose does the Israeli people include?

Well that depends on definition, and it's not my place to tell who is worthy of being called Israeli and who's not.

Fact that the law may point some issue doesn't mean it's not good.

I get confused with you, you say you became a Jew but your grandparents and your parents were sent to Israel, in the 1800's to work a farm. So you were born of a Jewish mother, and that would make you a Jew. You were born and raised there, so have every right to live there in my book, but when you said you became a Jew was it that you meant, you became a Jew who practiced Judaism? If this is too personal just say so.

I can explain better, but what does it have to do with the thread? If I was Christian or Arab, it would have mattered just the same?...

well your right, but to try and understand your viewpoint. To label a country as Jewish is in my opinion wrong, we can call one Jewish like we call Saudi Arabia Muslim but the country name is not Muslim. Whether the Jew is a race or a religion is debatable with everyone.

Why you gov. insists upon this is the question. Your PM can take some lessons from the President of the ACLU here in the states who by the way is a Jew. For the PLO to recognize Israel as a Jewish states declares themselves a minority living in a Jewish state.

I think the fact that Israel is the home of the Jewish people being stated in law is important, and comes in order to decrease the future possibility of hostile take over by our enemies.

That being said, it changes nothing in the domestic issues, as non-Jews have the same social rights as Jews in Israel, I don't see anything changing due to this basic law. The most important being the law of human dignity and security, and that's not about to change. So it's pretty much, "much to do about nothing".

As for myself, I was converted when adopted by my Israeli parents, full and legal conversion, when I was about 3 months old, but I was also lucky and unlucky to be considered the "most favorite granddaughter" of my grandparents, so what they left me and what they left for their other remaining offspring (from my uncles' side) wasn't equal, due to the fact that I was the one to take care and love them most among the other grandkids, and that's I say with pride in my heart and tears in my throat. So I see their struggles and suffering as my own, rightfully so.

Thanks for sharing , very interesting story. I only have issues with the bolded part below
I think the fact that Israel is the home of the Jewish people being stated in law is important, and comes in order to decrease the future possibility of hostile take over by our enemies.

Naming your state that would only increase your enemies, a Jewish state, what the hell does that "even mean" a state for the Jews? Once again alienating yourself from others, and if you have lots of enemies look into the history of your government, as far right as can be, the early ones from Russia (Ukraine and atheists Zionist), and as we know "you still have the fighting spirit" so the enemies you have are of your own making in many ways.

It would be ok, but we can't have a country built upon and named on the religion or even race. It would never be fair that way. Maybe if one lived in the states they would understand more, although we do have some sects here that stick to themselves, we do not have anything like that really.

That being said, it changes nothing in the domestic issues.

I think it does, it already has , the pals are behind a fence, the Jews want the temple mount and they are seizing E. Jerusalem because they have more power, more money and more army.

 

[Phoenall]

The corresponding state of affairs in the homeland of Islam...

=============================

The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is an Islamic theocratic monarchy in which Sunni Islam is the official state religion. Although no law requires citizens or passport holders to be Muslim, almost all citizens are Muslims. Children born to Muslim fathers are by law deemed Muslim, and conversion from Islam to another religion is considered apostasy and punishable by death. Blasphemy against Sunni Islam is also punishable by death, but the more common penalty is a long prison sentence. There have been no confirmed reports of executions for either apostasy or blasphemy in recent years.[1]

Religious freedom is virtually non-existent.[2] The Government does not provide legal recognition or protection for freedom of religion, and it is severely restricted in practice. As a matter of policy, the Government guarantees and protects the right to private worship for all, including non-Muslims who gather in homes for religious practice; however, this right is not always respected in practice and is not defined in law.[3] Moreover, the public practice of non-Muslim religions is prohibited.[1] The Saudi Mutaween (Arabic: مطوعين), or Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (i.e., the religious police) enforces the prohibition on the public practice of non-Muslim religions. Sharia applies to all people inside Saudi Arabia, regardless of religion.

...

Saudi Arabia is an Islamic monarchy and the Government has declared the Qur'an and the Sunnah (tradition) of Muhammad to be the country’s Constitution. Freedom of religion is severely limited. Islam is the official religion. Under the law, children born to Muslim fathers are also Muslim, regardless of the country or the religious tradition in which they have been raised. The Government prohibits the public practice of other religions but the government generally allows private practice of non-Muslim religions.[1] The Government bases its legitimacy on governance according to the precepts of the rigorously conservative and strict interpretation of the Salafi or Wahhabi school of the Sunni branch of Islam and discriminates against other branches of Islam. Neither the Government nor society in general accepts the concepts of separation of religion and state, and such separation does not exist.

...

=================================================

Following this same logic, it would appear that the Motherland of Islam is ALSO 'racist' and practices 'apartheid', at a level FAR in excess of that which Muslims are attempting to castigate Israel for...

Just tooooooooo comical for words...

I would agree, the Motherland of Islam is 'racist' and practices 'apartheid'. What's even more comical than what you state as being "Just tooooooooo comical for words," is that the Motherland of Judaism is doing her best to be just like her Islamic sister only does it while feigning freedom and democracy. ~ Susan

'All religions are evil.'​

Then show were Israel is RACIST and APARTHIED inside its recognised borders ?

 

[Phoenall]

How is that discriminatory? it changes nothing in the status quo

You're assuming the status quo isn't discriminatory then?

Yes.

Are there any rights given to Israeli Jews, that are denied from Israeli non-Jews?

Well now we need to define who is an Israeli , don't we, (according to you Jew is a religion, or a person who practices Judaism since you are a convert- Is this correct)

Whose does the Israeli people include?

Well that depends on definition, and it's not my place to tell who is worthy of being called Israeli and who's not.

Fact that the law may point some issue doesn't mean it's not good.

I get confused with you, you say you became a Jew but your grandparents and your parents were sent to Israel, in the 1800's to work a farm. So you were born of a Jewish mother, and that would make you a Jew. You were born and raised there, so have every right to live there in my book, but when you said you became a Jew was it that you meant, you became a Jew who practiced Judaism? If this is too personal just say so.

You show your complete lack of any intelligence or understanding of what the arab muslims have said about the Jews. They have it written in their charters to kill every Jew in Palestine, apart from those who lived there before 1857. So how can you defend the Palestinians and then go against the same palestinians when it comes to Jews who were born after 1857.

 

[Phoenall]

Well that depends on definition, and it's not my place to tell who is worthy of being called Israeli and who's not.

Fact that the law may point some issue doesn't mean it's not good.

I get confused with you, you say you became a Jew but your grandparents and your parents were sent to Israel, in the 1800's to work a farm. So you were born of a Jewish mother, and that would make you a Jew. You were born and raised there, so have every right to live there in my book, but when you said you became a Jew was it that you meant, you became a Jew who practiced Judaism? If this is too personal just say so.

I can explain better, but what does it have to do with the thread? If I was Christian or Arab, it would have mattered just the same?...

well your right, but to try and understand your viewpoint. To label a country as Jewish is in my opinion wrong, we can call one Jewish like we call Saudi Arabia Muslim but the country name is not Muslim. Whether the Jew is a race or a religion is debatable with everyone.

Why you gov. insists upon this is the question. Your PM can take some lessons from the President of the ACLU here in the states who by the way is a Jew. For the PLO to recognize Israel as a Jewish states declares themselves a minority living in a Jewish state.

I think the fact that Israel is the home of the Jewish people being stated in law is important, and comes in order to decrease the future possibility of hostile take over by our enemies.

That being said, it changes nothing in the domestic issues, as non-Jews have the same social rights as Jews in Israel, I don't see anything changing due to this basic law. The most important being the law of human dignity and security, and that's not about to change. So it's pretty much, "much to do about nothing".

As for myself, I was converted when adopted by my Israeli parents, full and legal conversion, when I was about 3 months old, but I was also lucky and unlucky to be considered the "most favorite granddaughter" of my grandparents, so what they left me and what they left for their other remaining offspring (from my uncles' side) wasn't equal, due to the fact that I was the one to take care and love them most among the other grandkids, and that's I say with pride in my heart and tears in my throat. So I see their struggles and suffering as my own, rightfully so.

Thanks for sharing , very interesting story. I only have issues with the bolded part below
I think the fact that Israel is the home of the Jewish people being stated in law is important, and comes in order to decrease the future possibility of hostile take over by our enemies.

Naming your state that would only increase your enemies, a Jewish state, what the hell does that "even mean" a state for the Jews? Once again alienating yourself from others, and if you have lots of enemies look into the history of your government, as far right as can be, the early ones from Russia (Ukraine and atheists Zionist), and as we know "you still have the fighting spirit" so the enemies you have are of your own making in many ways.

It would be ok, but we can't have a country built upon and named on the religion or even race. It would never be fair that way. Maybe if one lived in the states they would understand more, although we do have some sects here that stick to themselves, we do not have anything like that really.

That being said, it changes nothing in the domestic issues.

I think it does, it already has , the pals are behind a fence, the Jews want the temple mount and they are seizing E. Jerusalem because they have more power, more money and more army.

It means exactly what it say ISRAEL IS THE NATIONAL HOME OF THE JEWS as enshrined in CUSTOMARY INTERNATIONAL LAW extending back to 1919. It is also an extension of the UN declaration when it enshrined Israel as the Jewish State

 

[Phoenall]

Well that depends on definition, and it's not my place to tell who is worthy of being called Israeli and who's not.

Fact that the law may point some issue doesn't mean it's not good.

I get confused with you, you say you became a Jew but your grandparents and your parents were sent to Israel, in the 1800's to work a farm. So you were born of a Jewish mother, and that would make you a Jew. You were born and raised there, so have every right to live there in my book, but when you said you became a Jew was it that you meant, you became a Jew who practiced Judaism? If this is too personal just say so.

I can explain better, but what does it have to do with the thread? If I was Christian or Arab, it would have mattered just the same?...

well your right, but to try and understand your viewpoint. To label a country as Jewish is in my opinion wrong, we can call one Jewish like we call Saudi Arabia Muslim but the country name is not Muslim. Whether the Jew is a race or a religion is debatable with everyone.

Why you gov. insists upon this is the question. Your PM can take some lessons from the President of the ACLU here in the states who by the way is a Jew. For the PLO to recognize Israel as a Jewish states declares themselves a minority living in a Jewish state.

I think the fact that Israel is the home of the Jewish people being stated in law is important, and comes in order to decrease the future possibility of hostile take over by our enemies.

That being said, it changes nothing in the domestic issues, as non-Jews have the same social rights as Jews in Israel, I don't see anything changing due to this basic law. The most important being the law of human dignity and security, and that's not about to change. So it's pretty much, "much to do about nothing".

As for myself, I was converted when adopted by my Israeli parents, full and legal conversion, when I was about 3 months old, but I was also lucky and unlucky to be considered the "most favorite granddaughter" of my grandparents, so what they left me and what they left for their other remaining offspring (from my uncles' side) wasn't equal, due to the fact that I was the one to take care and love them most among the other grandkids, and that's I say with pride in my heart and tears in my throat. So I see their struggles and suffering as my own, rightfully so.

Thanks for sharing , very interesting story. I only have issues with the bolded part below
I think the fact that Israel is the home of the Jewish people being stated in law is important, and comes in order to decrease the future possibility of hostile take over by our enemies.

Naming your state that would only increase your enemies, a Jewish state, what the hell does that "even mean" a state for the Jews? Once again alienating yourself from others, and if you have lots of enemies look into the history of your government, as far right as can be, the early ones from Russia (Ukraine and atheists Zionist), and as we know "you still have the fighting spirit" so the enemies you have are of your own making in many ways.

It would be ok, but we can't have a country built upon and named on the religion or even race. It would never be fair that way. Maybe if one lived in the states they would understand more, although we do have some sects here that stick to themselves, we do not have anything like that really.

That being said, it changes nothing in the domestic issues.

I think it does, it already has , the pals are behind a fence, the Jews want the temple mount and they are seizing E. Jerusalem because they have more power, more money and more army.

The Yemeni's are behind a fence, so are the gazans on their southern border. There are many more people behind fences for worse reasons than the Palestinians are. Without that fence the possibility of thousands of Jews being murdered was a possibility. Now it is not so likely