Israel the Monster: Mass-murder of Innocents

[toomuchtime_]

The Israel election is coming, Olmert will punt to the new gov, and bad news for hamas, it will probaly be a hard right gov lead by Bibi.

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I haven't seen a recent poll, but the last I heard, Netanyahu and Livni were more or less tied and with this war going on Barak may be back in the running. Of the three, I think Barak would be the most capable of running a war and occupation in Gaza but also the least agressive.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

Jillian is absolutely right, BlackAsCoal…

When a Palestinian supports a Palestinian state out of one side of his mouth and the right of return out of the other HE IS IN FACT SUPPORTING A DE FACTO ONE STATE SOLUTION.

Do the math yourself, buddy:

support for a Palestinian state + support for the right of return = support for a DE FACTO unitary state.

The western press manipulates the polls by hiding the fact that the Palestinian support for a Palestinian state is meaningless since 99% of Palestinians think that the right of return is not even open for debate.

That's funny Jose'.

Surely you support limiting the number of hispanics who enter the US because they multiply and might tip the balance away from America being majority white.

"The western press" manipulates polls to present a more favorable picture of the Palestinians ????



... sure

 

[BlackAsCoal]

QUESTION: (most particularly to the "America first" crowd) .. What are the benefits of our undeniably biased support for Israel bringing to America and the American people that outweigh the tremendous costs of that support?

Costs such as,

Billions and billions of DWINDLING US taxpayer dollars pouring into Israel .. which was just increased by 25% in 2007 and with Barack Obama promising to increase military aid to Israel by another five billion dollars when he takes office.

Growing resentment against the United States all over the world and proving to the world that the problem with America ain't George Bush. ... a world we are increasingly dependent on.

Exponentially increasing the rise of terrorism, and in fact, giving support to those who use it.

Giving support to more radical elements in the arab world, thus endangering moderate leaders by giving a stronger voice less US friendly opposition.

Creating a greater divide between the EU and the US.

Opening the door to Russia, China, and the SCO to make gains in trade, treaties, and military cooperation throughout the middle east, far east, Africa, and even in South America .. and makes them appear friendlier and more acceptable in some cases to the EU.

AND, not the least of which, endangering the lives of American soldiers fighting in places like Afghanistan and Iraq. Does anybody believe situations in both wars didn't just suddenly become more dangerous? Does anybody believe that those elements our troops are fighting aren't seeing a boon in their recruitment?

I'd welcome any rational answer.

 

[editec]

I have no rational answer for any of those questions, BAC.

But I have a question...

What make you think that America Firsters are ardent supporters of continuing to support Isreal?

Who are these people you speak of?

 

[BlackAsCoal]

I have no rational answer for any of those questions, BAC.

But I have a question...

What make you think that America Firsters are ardent supporters of continuing to support Isreal?

Who are these people you speak of?

"America First" was the mantra of the right-wing, especially those who latched onto Palin. But as demonstrated even on this board, our buased support for Israel reaches across party lines and political ideology. Our slant is both democrat and republican.

Frankly, the paradox of it is just as curious with liberals and conservatives .. who both put the interests of Israel before what is in the best interest of America. Otherwise "antiwar" "humanitarian" liberals turn into nazis when it comes to Israel.

It's a very telling picture of America.

 

[AmericaFirst]

"America First" was the mantra of the right-wing, especially those who latched onto Palin. But as demonstrated even on this board, our buased support for Israel reaches across party lines and political ideology. Our slant is both democrat and republican.

Frankly, the paradox of it is just as curious with liberals and conservatives .. who both put the interests of Israel before what is in the best interest of America. Otherwise "antiwar" "humanitarian" liberals turn into nazis when it comes to Israel.

It's a very telling picture of America.

It's obvious to me. All major television networks, radio stations, newspapers and magazines are owned by the zionist mafia. The most powerful lobbies in America are zionist. The entire US monetary system and debt based dollar is owned by the zionists. Through this power they have convinced weak minded Americans to worship these murdering, land stealing, racist Israelis. In other words most Americans are ignorant to anything but what has been programed into their minds.

Acts like the current Gaza slaughter and the 2006 Lebanon slaughter has some good. The good is most rational thinking Americans can see the zionist media and ZOG (zionist occupied government) is full of shit, and has been exposed for what they are - puppets to the Talmud thumping, murdering, money grubbing racists. My friends in the Military are waking up to these Truths, as well as local police, politicians, Veterans, Christians as well as many SMART American Jews..

The other most important truth that is being exposed to rational thinking Americans is the criminal banking system. The criminals (private foreign owned for profit corporation) at the Federal Reserve have pretty much destroyed most Americans retirement accounts through fiat dollar manipulations, debt dollars, bubbles and electing their puppets into the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches of the American government. They are sending our great country into a depression. They have stolen trillions of dollars from US Taxpayers in just the past months alone!

The true Enemy is finally being exposed!

Will we take our country back? I think so! It might get ugly! SO WHAT!

So what will happen to these ignorant zionists that will not come out of their sleep and identify the Enemy Within? Will they be shipped off to Israel to be among their masters?

 

[Mr. President]

I read through your post twice before commenting just to make sure i read it right. Do you really believe that?

 

[AmericaFirst]

I read through your post twice before commenting just to make sure i read it right. Do you really believe that?

Until I can find something to contradict the facts, yes, of course I do.

 

[José]

Originally posted by BlackAsCoal
That's funny Jose'.

Surely you support limiting the number of hispanics who enter the US because they multiply and might tip the balance away from America being majority white.

I support the right of the US to limit hispanic immigration because the moment Mexico lost the will to fight for the land stolen by the Anglo settlers the mexican northern provinces became legitimate US posession.

The palestinian people suffer to this day for the land lost to Israel. It is depicted in all palestinian artistic expressions, music, literature, poetry, painting, sculpture... you name it.

Palestinian grandparents, moments before they die, call their grandchildren and "officially" gave them the keys to their homes in Western Palestine begging them to promise that, someday in the future, they will return to their ancestral land.

Compare these emotional link to Western Palestine with Mexican's attitude towards Texas, California, New Mexico etc, etc...

It's just a distant, somewhat melancholic memory from the time their country stretched from Central America to Canada.

Palestinians are prepared to fight and die for their ancestral homeland.

Mexicans wouldn't even jump a fence to live in their former provinces if they knew they wouldn't make any money there.

The difference between the two peoples and their relationship to the land lost to invaders couldn't be any more different.

 

[José]

BlackAsCoal

As you can see, unlike jillian and DavidS, I don't allow my ethnic background to cloud or influence my political analysis.

 

[toomuchtime_]

I support the right of the US to limit hispanic immigration because the moment Mexico lost the will to fight for the land stolen by the Anglo settlers the mexican northern provinces became legitimate US posession.

The palestinian people suffer to this day for the land lost to Israel. It is depicted in all palestinian artistic expressions, music, literature, poetry, painting, sculpture... you name it.

Palestinian grandparents, moments before they die, call their grandchildren and "officially" gave them the keys to their homes in Western Palestine begging them to promise that, someday in the future, they will return to their ancestral land.

Compare these emotional link to Western Palestine with Mexican's attitude towards Texas, California, New Mexico etc, etc...

It's just a distant, somewhat melancholic memory from the time their country stretched from Central America to Canada.

Palestinians are prepared to fight and die for their ancestral homeland.

Mexicans wouldn't even jump a fence to live in their former provinces if they knew they wouldn't make any money there.

The difference between the two peoples and their relationship to the land lost to invaders couldn't be any more different.

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Does this mean you are not claiming a right of return for Arab renters? Clearly you enjoy a good story that gets your emotional juices flowing, and there's nothing wrong with that; many people do and that's why there are so many soap operas on TV. But if you are basing your support of a right of return on a historical connection to the land, consider these two facts which you can verify at the UN website.

First, UNWRA, the UN agency that that keeps tract of Palestinian refugees and provides them various kinds of aid, defines a refugee as some one who was in what became Israel for at least two years between 1946 and 1948 or that person's descendants. This is the definition of a refugee Arab negotiators have been insisting on when claiming a right of return for the refugees.

Second, the early British reports to the League of Nations note that the land west of the Jordan River was only sparsely populated once one got away from the coast, but the later reports repeatedly complain about the inability of the British to stop large numbers of Arabs from the surrounding countries from emigrating to the land west of the River, especially in the mid and late 1930's. So taking into consideration the enormous increase in Arab population from when the British first arrived in the early 1920's to 1948, it is clear that a large percentage of the Arabs living west of the River in 1948 were recent immigrants just as the Jews there were and had no historical connection to the land.

So then are you basing your support for a right of return on this presumed historical connection to their homeland, which would exclude many of the Arabs the UN and the Palestinians call refugees, or are you supporting a right of return for all the descendants of all the Arabs who were there for two years between 1946 abd 1948 even if they had no historical connection to the land?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Don't baffle these people with FACTS.

 

[José]

Originally posted by toomuchtime
So then are you basing your support for a right of return on this presumed historical connection to their homeland, which would exclude many of the Arabs the UN and the Palestinians call refugees, or are you supporting a right of return for all the descendants of all the Arabs who were there for two years between 1946 abd 1948 even if they had no historical connection to the land?

Toomuchtime

The irony in all your posts is that you seek to delegitimise the claim of thousands of arabs who lived in Western Palestine for a few years before the creation of Israel in order to legitimize the claim of thousands of jews who lived in Western Palestine for a few years before the creation of Israel.



What the **** is that, buddy?

A crazy competition to determine who lived in Palestine for the shortest period of time before 1948?

 

[José]

toomuchtime

I said in a previous post that people should avoid debating facts because this leads to the demoralization of the debater in the eyes of their peers.

So now it’s time to follow my own advice.

It is a fact that thousands of arabs immigrated to Palestine during the first half of the last century and specially during the years that preceded the creation of Israel.

If I have to deny this historical fact in order to support democracy in Palestine then I’d prefer jewish racism.

There were two main reasons behind the influx of arabs into Palestine, one economic and one political:

The economic reason was the surge in agricultural/industrial activity that followed the immigration of European jews to Palestine.

Arabs moved to Palestine during the 20’s, 30’s and 40’s more or less like Mexicans move to America these days.

The political reason that led many arabs to live in Palestine is the fact that somewhere during the 30’s and 40’s both sides realized that the future of Palestine would be defined by the people living there.

So a demographic race between jews and arabs started.

Your assertion is absolutely right. There is a number of arabs who lived in Palestine for a couple of years before the creation of Israel and an even greater number of European jews.

There are two problems with your argument:

First problem:

You are trying to delegitimise the right of Palestinian arabs to live in Western Palestine but the tool you’re using to go about it (arabs who lived less than 2 years in Palestine) does not fit this purpose.

From the 600.000 arabs who left Western Palestine during the creation of Israel, more than 400.000 have legitimate proof they lived in Western Palestine for at least one generation.

Second (and most important) problem:

It doesn’t matter if a given European jew and a given arab lived in Western Palestine for one week, two years or half a century.

The fact is that their descendants think about Palestine as their national home.

How long their parents or grandparents spent in Palestine is immaterial now.

The Palestinian people don’t have the right to demand that an Israeli jew leave Western Palestine just because their grandparents arrived there in 1947.

And Israeli jews can't deny the right of a Palestinian to live in Western Palestine for similar reasons.

In their minds, Western Palestine is their national home regardless of how long their jewish/arab relatives lived there.

 

[DiveCon]

Toomuchtime

The irony in all your posts is that you seek to delegitimise the claim of thousands of arabs who lived in Western Palestine for a few years before the creation of Israel in order to legitimize the claim of thousands of jews who lived in Western Palestine for a few years before the creation of Israel.



What the **** is that, buddy?

A crazy competition to determine who lived in Palestine for the shortest period of time before 1948?

uh, jews have been there for about 3000 years

 

[José]

Originally posted by DiveCon
uh, jews have been there for about 3000 years

Yep, but the thousands of euro jews who founded the modern state of Israel were about as Palestinians as Puff Daddy.

Again...

This is not relevant in 2008/2009.

The children and grandchildren of those euro jews are now as Palestinians as any arab whose family lived there for 400 years.

No one has the right to demand that they leave the only place they call home.

 

[Angel Heart]

Pallywood at it's best. Pathetic sheep the lot of ya.

 

[Annie]

Yep, but the thousands of euro jews who founded the modern state of Israel were about as Palestinians as Puff Daddy.

Again...

This is not relevant in 2008/2009.

The children and grandchildren of those euro jews are now as Palestinians as any arab whose family lived there for 400 years.

No one has the right to demand that they live the only place they call home.

Take that to the bank. May the strongest prevail.

 

[osaileh]

thank you

 

[DiveCon]

Yep, but the thousands of euro jews who founded the modern state of Israel were about as Palestinians as Puff Daddy.

Again...

This is not relevant in 2008/2009.

The children and grandchildren of those euro jews are now as Palestinians as any arab whose family lived there for 400 years.

No one has the right to demand that they leave the only place they call home.

so, they can live in peace with Israel anywhere they chose to live in PEACE
let them stop lobbing rockets and this would never happen