Israel the Monster: Mass-murder of Innocents

[mash107]

I'm not even sure where to begin with this, but I'll start here:

JORDAN DIDNT EXIST UNTIL THE 20TH CENTURY.

I understand that lots of the land were divided up after the Arabs got rid of their Turkish imperialists in WWI, but my point is still valid, and I was just using short-hand names to describe who was moving and to where. Lots of Arabs ended up emigrating to west Palestine in the 19th and 20th centuries.

 

[dilloduck]

You are getting it backwards, though. No one thought ISRAEL would survive. That is why the british divided the mandate, giving all of the high ground, defensible positions and fortresses to the arabs. They figured the Arabs would finish off the Jews and they'd be absolved of guilt for what they allowed to happen in Europe.

Well that's a new one on me---The formation of Israel was actually a devious plan by the British to exterminate Jews ? Got a link for us on that one ? I've honestly never heard that before.

 

[cunclusion]

But its pretty much agreed this will end badly for one or the other. Thing is this time I do not think Isreal is going to take this operation lightly. After what happened in Lebenon w/Hezbollah they will do this operation a lot different and alot of people innocent and not are going to die.

 

[José]

Originally posted by toomuchtime
You seem to be confused about Israel. Israel is multicultural democracy in which non Jewish citizens participate fully and have the same legal rights and protections as Jews do with two exceptions: only Jews enjoy the right to return under Israeli law and only Jews are required by law to serve in the military, although some Arabs also volunteer to serve. The millions of Arabs who are Israeli citizens enjoy more freedoms, more legal rights and more legal protections than any of the Arabs living in any of the other nations in the region and particpate fully in all aspects of Israeli life. The fact is that Israel is the only multi cultural democracy in the region and is likely to remain the only multicultural democracy in the region for generations. You seem to be suggesting that Israel should be dismantled simply because some Arabs who are not Israeli citizens want to live there anyway. How can you possibly justify such a statement?

I’m not confused about the nature of the Israeli state, toomuchtime. You seem to be unaware of the difference between a democratic state and an ethnocracy.

In every sense of the word, Israel qualifies as an ethnocracy (racial dictatorship) perfectly and the West Bank and Gaza are, by definition, arab bantustans (that is, small, disconnected enclaves where the leaders of the dominant ethnic group keep the native population enclosed, treating them as foreign nationals).

You said it best in a previous post:

If by Western Palestine, you mean Israel, then there are no conditions under which the Palestinians will ever be allowed to live there, so if that's what Hamas is after then they are putting the Palestinian people through a lot of suffering for nothing.

Any state that denies an ethnic group their right to live in their homeland is, by definition, a racial dictatorship.

 

[José]

The reason you see Israel as a democratic state is that, at an unconscious, subliminal level you dehumanize the arab people of Palestine.

You don’t consider them as fully humans entitled to the same set of rights of any other human group.

Democracy is about universal humanization. The man and the woman, the white and the black, the millionaire and the beggar are all entitled to one vote and the same set of rights.

But when you consider a group of human beings as only partially humans, when you believe they lack some of the attributes needed to be considered as fully humans, the very notion of democracy is turned upside down.

Lemme give you a little example showing how dehumanization distorts and prostitutes the very notion of democracy:

The black people of South Africa was never seen in the West through a dehumanizing paradigm.

Zulus and Xhosas were always regarded as fully humans in the West and this is the reason South Africa was always rightly considered as a racial dictatorship.

But the arab people of Palestine are not fully humans in the eyes of the West and this is why a state that keeps millions of refugees herded in small enclaves is seen as a democratic state by so many westeners.

 

[José]

Originally posted by DiveCon
Israel has stopped, several times, the rockets never do
so, you tell me, how many roickets must Israel endure before its ok from you to respond?
or doesnt Israel get to respond?

OK, so the answer to this question that keeps the Israeli/Palestinian conflict alive "WHO DOES WHAT FIRST?" is:

"NOBODY DOES ANYTHING FIRST."

"PALESTINIANS DON'T STOP THEIR ARMED STRUGGLE FIRST AND ISRAEL DOES NOT TALK ABOUT THE DEMOCRATIZATION OF PALESTINE FIRST."

So let’s brace ourselves for more of the same:

Palestinians lobbing rockets into Israel

Israel flattening Palestinian cities

Arabs practicing building demolition in America in reprisal

America invading arab countries in retaliation

Arab/Muslim countries building nuclear deterrents against the West..

Etc, etc, etc…

We’re not talking about “normal” international conflicts, crisis here… We’re talking about a scenario that has the potential to conflagrate a nuclear exchange that will not be limited to the region in dispute.

It’s absolutely unbelievable that so many people in the West look at this scenario and does not conclude immediately that an international intervention in Palestine must be considered almost as a matter of survival of mankind.

I shake my head in utter disbelief when I see members of the Board saying things like: “Let’s them fight to the last man” or “They have to solve their land dispute by themselves”, as if we were talking about two tribes in Papua New Guinea disputing a territory with sticks and stones and not about a conflict that has the potential to generate a full nuclear exchange between the West and the Middle East.

As I said in another thread:

Science wonders if there is intelligent life outside our planet but I’m still wondering if there is intelligent life inside the head of a super patriotic American clown.

 

[mash107]

people can't always determine where they live, sometimes people move because of political situations or whatever.

Exactly, so why was Israel created?

 

[DiveCon]

OK, so the answer to this question that keeps the Israeli/Palestinian conflict alive "WHO DOES WHAT FIRST?" is:

"NOBODY DOES ANYTHING FIRST."

"PALESTINIANS DON'T STOP THEIR ARMED STRUGGLE FIRST AND ISRAEL DOES NOT TALK ABOUT THE DEMOCRATIZATION OF PALESTINE FIRST."

So let’s brace ourselves for more of the same:

Palestinians lobbing rockets into Israel

Israel flattening Palestinian cities

Arabs practicing building demolition in America in reprisal

America invading arab countries in retaliation

Arab/Muslim countries building nuclear deterrents against the West..

Etc, etc, etc…

We’re not talking about “normal” international conflicts, crisis here… We’re talking about a scenario that has the potential to conflagrate a nuclear exchange that will not be limited to the region in dispute.

It’s absolutely unbelievable that so many people in the West look at this scenario and does not conclude immediately that an international intervention in Palestine must be considered almost as a matter of survival of mankind.

I shake my head in utter disbelief when I see members of the Board saying things like: “Let’s them fight to the last man” or “They have to solve their land dispute by themselves”, as if we were talking about two tribes in Papua New Guinea disputing a territory with sticks and stones and not about a conflict that has the potential to generate a full nuclear exchange between the West and the Middle East.

As I said in another thread:

Science wonders if there is intelligent life outside our planet but I’m still wondering if there is intelligent life inside the head of a super patriotic American clown.

you are completely wrong
no sense in trying to explain it, you either dont understand what actually happened, or you are willfully ignorant

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Exactly, so why was Israel created?

Simply does not matter anymore, BUT the answer is that Britain planned to create A Jewish State there after the FIRST WW. The plan was for 2 countries one Jew and one Arab. The Arabs REFUSED to create a country. Why? Cause the 5 countries surrounding the area wanted the land for themselves. If they had won they would have divided it up amongst themselves. There was never going to be an other Arab Country there.

 

[Shogun]

you are completely wrong
no sense in trying to explain it, you either dont understand what actually happened, or you are willfully ignorant

CONVINCING.


:jack off motion:

 

[Shogun]

Simply does not matter anymore, BUT the answer is that Britain planned to create A Jewish State there after the FIRST WW. The plan was for 2 countries one Jew and one Arab. The Arabs REFUSED to create a country. Why? Cause the 5 countries surrounding the area wanted the land for themselves. If they had won they would have divided it up amongst themselves. There was never going to be an other Arab Country there.

WHY? because it was ALREADY THEIR ******* LAND and no people on the face of the ******* planet would do what you insist SOME OTHER PEOPLE do for the sake of your revelation bunnies.

 

[toomuchtime_]

I’m not confused about the nature of the Israeli state, toomuchtime. You seem to be unaware of the difference between a democratic state and an ethnocracy.

In every sense of the word, Israel qualifies as an ethnocracy (racial dictatorship) perfectly and the West Bank and Gaza are, by definition, arab bantustans (that is, small, disconnected enclaves where the leaders of the dominant ethnic group keep the native population enclosed, treating them as foreign nationals).

You said it best in a previous post:

If by Western Palestine, you mean Israel, then there are no conditions under which the Palestinians will ever be allowed to live there, so if that's what Hamas is after then they are putting the Palestinian people through a lot of suffering for nothing.

Any state that denies an ethnic group their right to live in their homeland is, by definition, a racial dictatorship.

-----------------------------------------------

If I understand you correctly, you are charging that Israel is not a democracy and is an ethnocracy not because of the way it treats its Arab citizens and other non Jewish citiizens but because it does not extend the right of citizenship to, as you defined your position in another post, virtually any Arab who claims to think of the land of Israel as his/her national homeland regardless of whether any of he/she or any of his/her antecedents ever had any actual connection with the land.

When I use the term, Israel, I am referring to what some call pre 1967 Israel, really the Israel that was defined by the 1949 cease fire line, but at least in this post, you seem to mean all of what was the western Mandate when you use the term, Israel. If by Israel, we mean pre 1967 Israel, the it certainly is a robust, transparent democracy and not an ethnic dictatorship or ethnocracy since all of its citizens, regardless of race, religion or ethnicity, enjoy all the same freedoms, rights and protections. If, on the other hand, if we mean pre 1967 Israel and the territories when we say, Israel, then in this usage, Israel is certainly not a democracy since a large number of people would not enjoy the rights of citizenship, but since a large number of Arabs would enjoy these rights, those who currently hold Israeli citizenship, it is not clear that the discrimination is on the basis of race, religion or ethnicity, but more on geography, since a Jew from the US who had not applied for Israeli citizenship and moved to Gaza or the West Bank would not be entitled to the freedoms, rights and protections an Arab citizen of Israel enjoys, but an Arab from the territories who became a citizen of Israel, as some 100,000 did during Oslo under Israel's family unification laws, would enjoy all the same freedoms, rights and protections any Jewish citizen of Israel enjoys.

 

[Shogun]

hey dude.. when jews stop trying to pack their "democracy" with imported jews specifically for the sake of maintaining ethnic dominance then you can start applying the hint of racism at people. Enjoying the "same freedom, rights etc as long as this state remains clearly and overtly ruled by jews" is a joke that any civil rights era black man could appriciate THIS SIDE of the election of Obama.

 

[Shogun]

edit: dual post.

 

[mash107]

Simply does not matter anymore, BUT the answer is that Britain planned to create A Jewish State there after the FIRST WW. The plan was for 2 countries one Jew and one Arab. The Arabs REFUSED to create a country. Why? Cause the 5 countries surrounding the area wanted the land for themselves. If they had won they would have divided it up amongst themselves. There was never going to be an other Arab Country there.

Or, more plausible, they didn't want to allow hundreds of thousands of Arab residents to be forcibly removed from their homes in that region, which would've been the case with the partition, so they protested with all their might. Granted, more lost their homes as a result of the war than would've otherwise with the agreement, but I would've definitely shot down that partition without a question, too. Especially considering the land they were being given was mostly desert to the south of Jerusalem. It has nothing to do with who first refused; it has to do with a total abdication of the respect for private property. There can be no liberty or prosperity, only despair, without respect for private property, as the 20th century experiment with communism has shown.

Only the Arab residents have the right to determine where they live and who governs them. It's the renunciation of this basic tenet of human rights that laid the groundwork for all the wars and conflict we've seen since. It is very relevant to today's conflict. You think it's any coincidence that the majority of Palestinians live in absolute poverty, and that some of the most desperate of them turn to violence? That poverty is precisely because of their force removal from their lands. Even more tragic, the leaders of these exiled Arabs, like the monarch of Jordan, are even less respectful of their rights, compounding their suffering.

 

[José]

Originally posted by toomuchtime
If I understand you correctly, you are charging that Israel is not a democracy and is an ethnocracy not because of the way it treats its Arab citizens and other non Jewish citiizens but because it does not extend the right of citizenship to, as you defined your position in another post, virtually any Arab who claims to think of the land of Israel as his/her national homeland regardless of whether any of he/she or any of his/her antecedents ever had any actual connection with the land.

We’ve already been through that, toomuchtime. This is getting a bit tiring.

Ahmed’s parents arrived in Western Palestine in 1947

Moche’s parents arrived in Western Palestine in the same year.

These four individuals had virtually no historical connection with Western Palestine.

Ahmed and Mosche, on the other hand, having lived their entire lives in Palestine, think about themselves as Palestinians, not as an Egyptian and a Russian Jew, AND RIGHTFULLY SO.

Any state that denies their right to live in any part of their homeland is by definition a racial dictatorship.

 

[José]

Originally posted by toomuchtime
When I use the term, Israel, I am referring to what some call pre 1967 Israel, really the Israel that was defined by the 1949 cease fire line, but at least in this post, you seem to mean all of what was the western Mandate when you use the term, Israel. If by Israel, we mean pre 1967 Israel, the it certainly is a robust, transparent democracy and not an ethnic dictatorship or ethnocracy since all of its citizens, regardless of race, religion or ethnicity, enjoy all the same freedoms, rights and protections. If, on the other hand, if we mean pre 1967 Israel and the territories when we say, Israel, then in this usage, Israel is certainly not a democracy since a large number of people would not enjoy the rights of citizenship, but since a large number of Arabs would enjoy these rights, those who currently hold Israeli citizenship, it is not clear that the discrimination is on the basis of race, religion or ethnicity, but more on geography, since a Jew from the US who had not applied for Israeli citizenship and moved to Gaza or the West Bank would not be entitled to the freedoms, rights and protections an Arab citizen of Israel enjoys, but an Arab from the territories who became a citizen of Israel, as some 100,000 did during Oslo under Israel's family unification laws, would enjoy all the same freedoms, rights and protections any Jewish citizen of Israel enjoys.

You portray pre-1967 Israel as if the country were as democratic as Switzerland as if the country weren’t already a jewish version of South Africa complete with ethnic enclaves from which the undesirable ethnic group were not allowed to leave.

More evidence of the dehumanizing paradigm through which you see the Palestinian people.

What you fail to notice is that citizenship is one of the tools racial dictatorships have to implement their racist policies, toomuchtime.

South Africa under Apartheid also considered itself a democratic state since most of its black population were “foreign workers” living in South Africa with a visa.

They were citizens of the so called Black Republics or Bantustans, complete with passports, police, checkpoints etc…

The manipulation of the legal status of the discriminated ethnic group is one of the ways used by ethnocratic states to maintain the privileged position of the dominant ethnic group.

In simple English:

As long as the Israeli government refuses to give citizenship to millions of Palestinians presently living in refugee camps throughout the Middle East, Israel will still be a jewish racial dictatorship no matter how many rights are granted to its token Palestinian population.

Israel is a jewish ethnocratic state. This is a fact.

Israel should be dismantled and replaced by a democratic state. This is an opinion.

I happen to agree with it because I oppose any form of ethnic supremacism but I will never accuse anyone who does not hold the same opinion of being factually wrong.

Let’s limit ourselves to debating opinions not facts, so we do not get demoralized.

 

[DiveCon]

You portray pre-1967 Israel as if the country were as democratic as Switzerland as if the country weren’t already a jewish version of South Africa complete with ethnic enclaves from which the undesirable ethnic group were not allowed to leave.

More evidence of the dehumanizing paradigm through which you see the Palestinian people.

What you fail to notice is that citizenship is one of the tools racial dictatorships have to implement their racist policies, toomuchtime.

South Africa under Apartheid also considered itself a democratic state since most of its black population were “foreign workers” living in South Africa with a visa.

They were citizens of the so called Black Republics or Bantustans, complete with passports, police, checkpoints etc…

The manipulation of the legal status of the discriminated ethnic group is one of the ways used by ethnocratic states to maintain the privileged position of the dominant ethnic group.

In simple English:

As long as the Israeli government refuses to give citizenship to millions of Palestinians presently living in refugee camps throughout the Middle East, Israel will still be a jewish racial dictatorship no matter how many rights are granted to its token Palestinian population.

Israel is a jewish ethnocratic state. This is a fact.

Israel should be dismantled and replaced by a democratic state. This is an opinion.

I happen to agree with it because I oppose any form of ethnic supremacism but I will never accuse anyone who does not hold the same opinion of being factually wrong.

Let’s limit ourselves to debating opinions not facts, so we do not get demoralized.

"token rights"?????

wow, that is just beyond stupid
they have Arab members of the Knesset

 

[Godboy]

As long as the Israeli government refuses to give citizenship to millions of Palestinians presently living in refugee camps throughout the Middle East, Israel will still be a jewish racial dictatorship no matter how many rights are granted to its token Palestinian population.

Tell me, why on earth would Israel let in the people who have been doing rocket and suicide attacks against them for decades? Give me one good reason why anyone would do that? Its not as if its a secret that the Palestinians want to see Israel destroyed, so i dont understand why anyone would be confused about Israels position, unless of course you just hate jews....

Oh, and you apparently dont understand the definition of a dictatorship, or you are just doing your best to use evil sounding words to describe Israeli leadership, as if that somehow helps your case. To me, it just makes you just sound stupid.

...and by the way, if i was to demand citizenship from Israel, im guessing i would get the same response the Palestinians get. You dont get to demand citizenship, it is rewarded to people Israel finds deserving of it. I think right now, the Palestinians are getting what they deserve, which sure as hell isnt citizenship.

 

[jillian]

Because terrorist psychos think jews should lay down and die for them...

stupid, aren't they?