Israel and Palastine explained.

[Penelope]

hebrews = israelites = children of jacob = jews. It's all the same: 'jew' doesn't mean 'judahite' only.[/b]

oh it doesn't. One doesn't know what jew means anymore does one. Yes in the bible jews were of the tribe judah. Now they say abraham was a jew, no he was from the land of ur according to the jewish ency, moon worshippers they were before he decided to leave. I imagine there were many different tribes there and abraham spoke hebrew, a language and as such he was known as a hebrew. So lets see that make jews and arabs family does it not?

Also the jews are all intermarried. so what? It's not 'blood' alone: Ruth was not a jewess, and she was the great-grandmother of king david. Judaism accepts proselytes: In fact, there were so many greek proselytes, the word originally was specific to people joining judaism, not any other faith.

you may want to discuss this fact with israel law now, a persons mother needs to be jewish for one to be considered a jew now. Oh yes that was the "final solution" a term made up by jews themselves to change their names and religions but then decided the real "final solution" was to get palestine and move there. Many intermarried, even in the old testament they fell into paganism more often than not.


The israelites fought other people for the land and then lost it severeral times, till the zionist movement begun in 1880 and it was lets go back to judea, even when king cyrus came to their aid and allowed them to return to jerusalem, only 45000 did, the rest were happy in babylon of which the babylon talmud was wrote.

zionism did not 'begin in 1880' - there were always jews trying to return to judea to live there, in every single century. Look at the history of s'fat/safed for one example: It was a great center of talmudic study, in the 16th century.... Just one example

i'll grant you that some jews always tried to return to jerusalem , but zionism is a movement and it begun in and about 1880 when the jews of the soviet union and the us got involved in the best way to get the land of palestine back, so zionism is a movement, and one does not need to be a jew to be a zionist, as joe biden proudly states.




Its israel that wants all the land, and is building illegally.and you presume to 'know' what "israel" wants exactly how? Do you think you 'know' what hamas wants? Or the pa?

you can tell by their actions, look at the map over time, hamas wants the lines returned to the pre 6 day war.

Lots of natural gas and oil in the mediterranean sea right, when does palestine get its share. I think israel owes a lot of money to palestine.there isn't any 'palestine' yet - and they've already sold the mineral rights to two foreign companies, well 90% of them. Which deal had nothing to do with israel, and wasn't made by israel - so israel 'owes' them nothing for that.

I wont get into the oil pipeline from egypt to the edge of gaza now.

As for who owes who what - if the only people you are interested in getting compensation for their losses for are the 'palestinians', you'd be in violation of that 'international law' you keep yelping about. Oh, and it certainly would never be a 'just' arrangement while you choose to ignore the very well-documented ethnic cleansing crimes of jordan, egypt, syria, iraq, and other arab league nations.

many ea countries are warning contractors not to build on newly acquired israel land, now unoccupied and seized illegally. One poster said it well, when israel and palestine is discussing who gets what, israel is eating the pizza.

 

[irosie91]

Penelope----your posts make it absolutely clear that you know nothing
about Judaism or jewish history-----what you do know is islamo Nazi
propaganda------why be SO transparent?

PS----I AM A JEW----BUT NOT OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH----ALL PEOPLE
WHO IDENTIFY AS BEING DESCENDED FROM JACOB----OR WHO ADHERE
TO THE JEWISH (SOMETIMES IN THE PAST CALLED THE HEBREW)
RELIGION ARE,, TODAY CALLED JEWS. GUESS WHY---IF YOU CANNOT--
IT IS BECAUSE YOU SIMPLY DO NOT KNOW-----SO QUIT IMAGINING THAT YOU
ARE AN EXPERT IN ANYTHING BUT ISLAMO NAZI PROPAGANDA

 

[Challenger]

Let's look at history...
[x] Jews kicked out of Israel by Babylonians, became part of Babylonian society, excelled, became an integral cornerstone of Babylonia.
[x] Jews conquered by Greece, became part of Greek society, excelled, became an integral cornerstone of Greece.
[x] Jews out of Israel by Rome, became part of Roman society, excelled, became an integral cornerstone of Rome.
In fact, Romans were converting to Rabbinical Judaism in droves; 20% of Rome was Jewish.

Ooh, can we?

[x] Judean rebel elites deported by Babylonians to keep a eye on them where they syncretised Babylonian religion with their own cult to create the Babylonian Talmud or "Judaism." Here they lived the high life until the Iranians conquered the Baylonians and Cyrus decreed they could go if they wanted. Some did, others didn't.
[x] Macedonians destroy the Achaemenid Empire and after Alexander dies, Seleucius gets to rule the area and commences proces of modernizing the place along Hellenistic lines, this is too much for some conservative religious fanatic terrorists who rebel and create a short lived mini-state.
[x] Seleucid empire conquered by Romans. Same set of religious fanatic terrorists cause problems for the Romans until they lose patience and wipe them out. Meanwhile the peaceful adherants of Judaism send out missionaries all over the Roman empire where the Jewish religion takes hold alongside Paganism until the rise of Christianity, then it all goes wrong and the Jewish peoples of the Roman Empire invent a myth of exile and spritiual redemption to keep their morale up, while the Christians go on to dominate most of the Western world.

There you go thats history, not the Zionist hasbara version.

Wow, where did you get that distorted, revisionist history from?

Jews had a right to rebel against Greece and Rome for their liberty. And Judaism, unlike Christianity, was never a missionary religion (with the lone exception of the Idumeans, for which they payed dearly under Herod).

I'm sure Ctesias, Heroditus, Strabo, Curtius, Cassius Dio, etc would be amused at being called "revisionists"

As for Judaism never being a missionary religion... see "Jewish Proselytising in the Roman Empire under the Caesars Domitian, Nerva, Trajan and Hadrian"--Heinrich Graetz and/or "Mission and Conversion: Proselytising in the Religious History of the Roman Empire"--Martin Goodman.

Oh and as regards the Maccabeans, this is also apparently turning out to be Zionist hasbara; Judas Maccabeus may have existed as a successful terrorist but he may well have won no wars against the Seleucids. Modern research at Oxford has discovered evidence that the whole Maccabean revolt, if it happened at all, was really insignificant and the Second Temple was in fact restored and rededicated by the Hellenized high priest Menelaus. Oops, another nail in the coffin of Zionist mythology.

 

[mdalby]

First of all, I am pretty ignorant of the history of Israel so I am trying to get educated. So I found this forum and have been trying to get up to speed. So thanks in advance for your help.

I have heard the following occurred, but I don't have any documentation to support. Can anyone help me document if this is correct?

I heard that during the 1967 Six Day War, Egypt told the Palestinians and the world that they were going to attack Israel and told the Palestinians to leave Jerusalem and Israel so Egypt could attack Jerusalem without injuring the Palestinians. The Palestinians evacuated the area in support of Egypt so they could then go back into Jerusalem and the Israeli state and take the land. After Egypt and Jordan etc lost the 6 day war, the Palestinians wanted to return to take control of the land / homes that they evacuated.

Is this correct?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Ooh, can we?

[x] Judean rebel elites deported by Babylonians to keep a eye on them where they syncretised Babylonian religion with their own cult to create the Babylonian Talmud or "Judaism." Here they lived the high life until the Iranians conquered the Baylonians and Cyrus decreed they could go if they wanted. Some did, others didn't.
[x] Macedonians destroy the Achaemenid Empire and after Alexander dies, Seleucius gets to rule the area and commences proces of modernizing the place along Hellenistic lines, this is too much for some conservative religious fanatic terrorists who rebel and create a short lived mini-state.
[x] Seleucid empire conquered by Romans. Same set of religious fanatic terrorists cause problems for the Romans until they lose patience and wipe them out. Meanwhile the peaceful adherants of Judaism send out missionaries all over the Roman empire where the Jewish religion takes hold alongside Paganism until the rise of Christianity, then it all goes wrong and the Jewish peoples of the Roman Empire invent a myth of exile and spritiual redemption to keep their morale up, while the Christians go on to dominate most of the Western world.

There you go thats history, not the Zionist hasbara version.

Wow, where did you get that distorted, revisionist history from?

Jews had a right to rebel against Greece and Rome for their liberty. And Judaism, unlike Christianity, was never a missionary religion (with the lone exception of the Idumeans, for which they payed dearly under Herod).

I'm sure Ctesias, Heroditus, Strabo, Curtius, Cassius Dio, etc would be amused at being called "revisionists"

As for Judaism never being a missionary religion... see "Jewish Proselytising in the Roman Empire under the Caesars Domitian, Nerva, Trajan and Hadrian"--Heinrich Graetz and/or "Mission and Conversion: Proselytising in the Religious History of the Roman Empire"--Martin Goodman.

Oh and as regards the Maccabeans, this is also apparently turning out to be Zionist hasbara; Judas Maccabeus may have existed as a successful terrorist but he may well have won no wars against the Seleucids. Modern research at Oxford has discovered evidence that the whole Maccabean revolt, if it happened at all, was really insignificant and the Second Temple was in fact restored and rededicated by the Hellenized high priest Menelaus. Oops, another nail in the coffin of Zionist mythology.

I suppose that there was no Hasmonean dynasty ruling Judea for almost a century, either.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

First of all, I am pretty ignorant of the history of Israel so I am trying to get educated. So I found this forum and have been trying to get up to speed. So thanks in advance for your help.

I have heard the following occurred, but I don't have any documentation to support. Can anyone help me document if this is correct?

I heard that during the 1967 Six Day War, Egypt told the Palestinians and the world that they were going to attack Israel and told the Palestinians to leave Jerusalem and Israel so Egypt could attack Jerusalem without injuring the Palestinians. The Palestinians evacuated the area in support of Egypt so they could then go back into Jerusalem and the Israeli state and take the land. After Egypt and Jordan etc lost the 6 day war, the Palestinians wanted to return to take control of the land / homes that they evacuated.

Is this correct?

I don't know about that. I do know that prior to the Six-Day War, the Jordanians destroyed the Jewish Quarter in the Old City.

 

[irosie91]

First of all, I am pretty ignorant of the history of Israel so I am trying to get educated. So I found this forum and have been trying to get up to speed. So thanks in advance for your help.

I have heard the following occurred, but I don't have any documentation to support. Can anyone help me document if this is correct?

I heard that during the 1967 Six Day War, Egypt told the Palestinians and the world that they were going to attack Israel and told the Palestinians to leave Jerusalem and Israel so Egypt could attack Jerusalem without injuring the Palestinians. The Palestinians evacuated the area in support of Egypt so they could then go back into Jerusalem and the Israeli state and take the land. After Egypt and Jordan etc lost the 6 day war, the Palestinians wanted to return to take control of the land / homes that they evacuated.

Is this correct?

no----I am old and was----alive and very receptive to facts---in 1967---
it was May---school had just ended for me---finals over ---the whole thing
was televised CRISIS IN THE MIDDLE EAST-----hours and hours of UN
proceedings----interviews---and on location footage Nasser (Egypt)
fomented the crisis----he was a BAATHIST (like assad and sadaam) which
is an arab nationalist.----he tried to UNITE THE ARAB WORLD ---he even had
a name for it THE UNITED ARAB REPUBLIC UAR--was a topic of news
for many years. In May he decided it was time for a war with Israel---
He was heavily armed by the USSR--(communist Russia et al) and even given
expert Russian military men. ---planes, tanks etc etc He enlisted his friends---
Lebanon, Syria, Jordan ----and stated his intention of a war of ANNHILATION
against Israel----very flamboyantly. If he had told people to evacuate
Jerusalem---I would have remembered that. What he did do is place an embargo
on the water way Strait of Tiran----an act of war against Israel----things
were tense----the US threatened to violate the embargo. Nasser built
up his army and huge legion of Russian tanks on the border between Sinai
and Israel-----and gathered his huge aviation collection and LOOMED---
predicting imminent rape and pillage of tel aviv. Israel was a wreck----
planes already bought from france----were held back by france----
so Israel stage a kind of "just take them" operation and also bombed
a few unpiloted planes sitting on the tarmac in Egypt-----the WAR was one
the same day------Egypt poised and ready-----at first it was between Egypt and
Israel---but then Jordan popped in----and then Syria and Lebanon-----
The most fierce HAND TO HAND fighting was in Jerusalem----the people
of east Jerusalem fled to Jordan-----so now you know. I do not recall Nasser
TELLING them to do it-----they did it because of the intensive fighting. "
I believe of the Israeli soldiers who died----that Jerusalem fight was the most
deadly----don't quote me. The Egyptian army was a total mess of
confusion. The soldiers abandoned their tanks and ran across the Sinai----
many died of dehydration. Syria was defeated as was Lebanon ---all in six
days----so now you know

 

[irosie91]

I forgot to mention----after the six day war----the residents of east Jerusalem
did return to their homes -----very quickly-----it was done within about one week.--
their return was televised---interviews ---etc etc.

 

[Challenger]

First of all, I am pretty ignorant of the history of Israel so I am trying to get educated. So I found this forum and have been trying to get up to speed. So thanks in advance for your help.

I have heard the following occurred, but I don't have any documentation to support. Can anyone help me document if this is correct?

I heard that during the 1967 Six Day War, Egypt told the Palestinians and the world that they were going to attack Israel and told the Palestinians to leave Jerusalem and Israel so Egypt could attack Jerusalem without injuring the Palestinians. The Palestinians evacuated the area in support of Egypt so they could then go back into Jerusalem and the Israeli state and take the land. After Egypt and Jordan etc lost the 6 day war, the Palestinians wanted to return to take control of the land / homes that they evacuated.

Is this correct?

No. this is a wild conflation of Zionist mythology about the 1948, '56 and '67 wars. Palestinians were ethically cleansed in 1947-48, tried to return between 1949-55 but were mostly raped, robbed and/ormurdered by the IDF (Benny Morris "Israel's Border Wars" will tell you all about that in more detail). In 1967 Palestinian refugees in Trans Jordan and Gaza found themselves under Zionist Israeli domination (those that hadn't fled or had nowhere to go). Those that got away are still refugees in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and the rest of the world.

 

[Challenger]

...I suppose that there was no Hasmonean dynasty ruling Judea for almost a century, either.

Don't know. We only have Flavius Josephus' word on that one. It's quite possible that as Seleucid power diminished in the area, the Hasmoneans stepped into the vacuum as a Roman "puppet state", but apparently the reality was that the Hasmonean "kingdom" passed from a Seleucid puppet state to Roman puppet state without ever going through independance first. To be fair, I've only recently come across this interesting de-construction of Hasmonean history, so I can't make any definitive determinations either way, yet.

 

[Daniyel]

First of all, I am pretty ignorant of the history of Israel so I am trying to get educated. So I found this forum and have been trying to get up to speed. So thanks in advance for your help.

I have heard the following occurred, but I don't have any documentation to support. Can anyone help me document if this is correct?

I heard that during the 1967 Six Day War, Egypt told the Palestinians and the world that they were going to attack Israel and told the Palestinians to leave Jerusalem and Israel so Egypt could attack Jerusalem without injuring the Palestinians. The Palestinians evacuated the area in support of Egypt so they could then go back into Jerusalem and the Israeli state and take the land. After Egypt and Jordan etc lost the 6 day war, the Palestinians wanted to return to take control of the land / homes that they evacuated.

Is this correct?

No. this is a wild conflation of Zionist mythology about the 1948, '56 and '67 wars. Palestinians were ethically cleansed in 1947-48, tried to return between 1949-55 but were mostly raped, robbed and/ormurdered by the IDF (Benny Morris "Israel's Border Wars" will tell you all about that in more detail). In 1967 Palestinian refugees in Trans Jordan and Gaza found themselves under Zionist Israeli domination (those that hadn't fled or had nowhere to go). Those that got away are still refugees in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and the rest of the world.

-Ignoring the massive diss you made there on IDF-
I want to ask you one simple question, Would you let those who want you dead to live?

 

[fanger]

-Ignoring the massive diss you made there on IDF-
I want to ask you one simple question, Would you let those who want you dead to live?

It's the killing of whole family's and other people, who you justify your killing of by saying they where "Human shields" by way of excusing your vile actions

 

[Mojo2]

Israel and Palestine 2013: War Explained! - YouTube

Besides the promotion of an improbable divestment and impractical boycott this video does a good job.

After watching this video I now understand how young people are so often on the wrong side of this argument.

The Palestinians are particularly bigoted against Jews and it is for more than the conflict over the land.

That video is a masterful blend of lies, omissions, half-truths and manipulation of facts.

It is overwhelming in it's audacity.

It is 180 degrees off kilter.

Do you think the sincere sounding narrator knows she is promoting a false set of beliefs about this conflict?

Do you think she realizes she defends racists and bigots?

Wouldn't that be like a Jew defending Nazis during WWII?

 

[Daniyel]

-Ignoring the massive diss you made there on IDF-
I want to ask you one simple question, Would you let those who want you dead to live?

It's the killing of whole family's and other people, who you justify your killing of by saying they where "Human shields" by way of excusing your vile actions

You are so full of crap, you also didn't answer my damn question, you prefer letting those who want you to die to live?
If you ask me who deserve to die, I prefer Hamas of course, I wouldn't tolerate my family being threaten and if it means that those who voted Hamas including their women (very innocent), and sadly the children will die, fine by me since nobody give a damn about my side, and I don't care how innocent they are, once they agree to put their family in risk and calling on offense against me - they deserve to die.
Please also note that Israel agreed to negotiate and ceasefire but they rejected it.

 

[Mojo2]

First of all, I am pretty ignorant of the history of Israel so I am trying to get educated. So I found this forum and have been trying to get up to speed. So thanks in advance for your help.

I have heard the following occurred, but I don't have any documentation to support. Can anyone help me document if this is correct?

I heard that during the 1967 Six Day War, Egypt told the Palestinians and the world that they were going to attack Israel and told the Palestinians to leave Jerusalem and Israel so Egypt could attack Jerusalem without injuring the Palestinians. The Palestinians evacuated the area in support of Egypt so they could then go back into Jerusalem and the Israeli state and take the land. After Egypt and Jordan etc lost the 6 day war, the Palestinians wanted to return to take control of the land / homes that they evacuated.

Is this correct?

At about the 52:00 mark the expert talks about how the Zionists were known as "Palestinians" until the great Identity Theft by Arab Muslims to steal the term immediately after Israeli statehood.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

What non-self-governing territory???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngFYOLOkmaI
Dennis Prager, Not a Pallywood-made video.

Propaganda crap.

People in non self governing territories have the right to self determination without external interference, the right to independence and sovereignty, and the right to territorial integrity.

"A state" is not necessary.

(COMMENT)

Since the time of the Partition Plan the Arab Palestinians were stumbling through self government; very ineffectively.

First, the "external interference" was on the part of the Arab League. Prior to the termination of the British Mandate, the UK was the Government. After the termination, and the War of Independence, the Arab Palestinians established the "All Palestine Government" in the Gaza Strip and the Jordanians, the the consent of the Arab Palestinians, annexed the West Bank.

In both cases, the Arab Palestinian exercised their right of self determination. They chose the type of government they wanted and no other nation interfered with their decision.

In fact, in 1988, the Arab Palestinians declared independence, which was a third attempt at self-governance; clearly exercising the right of self-determination. While the government was parasitic then, as it is now, the only external interference was in the form of donor nation contributions to keep the State of Palestine solvent and line the pockets of a very corrupt Palestinian Leadership.

If the Arab Palestinians had not attempted to assassinate the King of Jordan, and had not been such a criminal influence, it might still be part of Jordan today. But the character of the Arab Palestinian was not about to let that happen. To troublesome and unproductive, The Hashemite Kingdom dropped them in a clean break; cutting all economic and political ties in 1988.

Similarly, in 1959, Egypt, recognizing the ineffectiveness of the All Palestine Government, annulled the organization in favor of a standard occupation government.

Your implication that some allied eternal influence retarded self-government is an over simplification of what really happened. As Article 22 of the League of Nations Covenant eluded to, there were some people that were not yet ready to stand on their own. The Arab Palestinian demonstrated their abilities a number of times.

Most Respectfully,
R

You posted all of that without addressing my post.

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, et al,

What non-self-governing territory???

Propaganda crap.

People in non self governing territories have the right to self determination without external interference, the right to independence and sovereignty, and the right to territorial integrity.

"A state" is not necessary.

(COMMENT)

Since the time of the Partition Plan the Arab Palestinians were stumbling through self government; very ineffectively.

First, the "external interference" was on the part of the Arab League. Prior to the termination of the British Mandate, the UK was the Government. After the termination, and the War of Independence, the Arab Palestinians established the "All Palestine Government" in the Gaza Strip and the Jordanians, the the consent of the Arab Palestinians, annexed the West Bank.

In both cases, the Arab Palestinian exercised their right of self determination. They chose the type of government they wanted and no other nation interfered with their decision.

In fact, in 1988, the Arab Palestinians declared independence, which was a third attempt at self-governance; clearly exercising the right of self-determination. While the government was parasitic then, as it is now, the only external interference was in the form of donor nation contributions to keep the State of Palestine solvent and line the pockets of a very corrupt Palestinian Leadership.

If the Arab Palestinians had not attempted to assassinate the King of Jordan, and had not been such a criminal influence, it might still be part of Jordan today. But the character of the Arab Palestinian was not about to let that happen. To troublesome and unproductive, The Hashemite Kingdom dropped them in a clean break; cutting all economic and political ties in 1988.

Similarly, in 1959, Egypt, recognizing the ineffectiveness of the All Palestine Government, annulled the organization in favor of a standard occupation government.

Your implication that some allied eternal influence retarded self-government is an over simplification of what really happened. As Article 22 of the League of Nations Covenant eluded to, there were some people that were not yet ready to stand on their own. The Arab Palestinian demonstrated their abilities a number of times.

Most Respectfully,
R

You posted all of that without addressing my post.

Liar. He asked you a question directly related to your comment, and you ignored it.
Read the first line of his post.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

What non-self-governing territory???


(COMMENT)

Since the time of the Partition Plan the Arab Palestinians were stumbling through self government; very ineffectively.

First, the "external interference" was on the part of the Arab League. Prior to the termination of the British Mandate, the UK was the Government. After the termination, and the War of Independence, the Arab Palestinians established the "All Palestine Government" in the Gaza Strip and the Jordanians, the the consent of the Arab Palestinians, annexed the West Bank.

In both cases, the Arab Palestinian exercised their right of self determination. They chose the type of government they wanted and no other nation interfered with their decision.

In fact, in 1988, the Arab Palestinians declared independence, which was a third attempt at self-governance; clearly exercising the right of self-determination. While the government was parasitic then, as it is now, the only external interference was in the form of donor nation contributions to keep the State of Palestine solvent and line the pockets of a very corrupt Palestinian Leadership.

If the Arab Palestinians had not attempted to assassinate the King of Jordan, and had not been such a criminal influence, it might still be part of Jordan today. But the character of the Arab Palestinian was not about to let that happen. To troublesome and unproductive, The Hashemite Kingdom dropped them in a clean break; cutting all economic and political ties in 1988.

Similarly, in 1959, Egypt, recognizing the ineffectiveness of the All Palestine Government, annulled the organization in favor of a standard occupation government.

Your implication that some allied eternal influence retarded self-government is an over simplification of what really happened. As Article 22 of the League of Nations Covenant eluded to, there were some people that were not yet ready to stand on their own. The Arab Palestinian demonstrated their abilities a number of times.

Most Respectfully,
R

You posted all of that without addressing my post.

Liar. He asked you a question directly related to your comment, and you ignored it.
Read the first line of his post.

Do you mean this stupid question?

What non-self-governing territory???

A question that I have already answered a thousand times.

Besides, Rocco is the "expert" he should know what a non self governing territory is.

 

[toastman]

You posted all of that without addressing my post.

Liar. He asked you a question directly related to your comment, and you ignored it.
Read the first line of his post.

Do you mean this stupid question?

What non-self-governing territory???

A question that I have already answered a thousand times.

Besides, Rocco is the "expert" he should know what a non self governing territory is.

Figures, still no answer. Just more... What do you call it. Oh ya! Song and dance.

 

[toastman]

You posted all of that without addressing my post.

Liar. He asked you a question directly related to your comment, and you ignored it.
Read the first line of his post.

Do you mean this stupid question?

What non-self-governing territory???

A question that I have already answered a thousand times.

Besides, Rocco is the "expert" he should know what a non self governing territory is.

Face it Tinmore, Rocco is a huge threat to you because he is more knowledgable then anyone here on this conflict and he is able to dismantle all your repetitive lies with valid and indisputable evidence.
Instead of always fighting him, you should be thanking him for teaching you and correcting your mistakes.