Israel and Palastine explained.

[Phoenall]

NO, it doesn't do a good job at all. It's very inaccurate.

For one thing, it NEVER mentions the just under one million people from many Arab League nations - who were beggared and ejected by the AL nations.

Relevance?

The whole 'second-class citizen' bit is crap, too. THERE ARE NO 'Jew only' ROADS. License plates are not issued on the basis of religion.

Patently false. http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_movement_access_2009_november_english.pdf
So the Palestinians are supposed to just accept the short end of the stick or be faced with relocation and violence. Gotcha.
Because they already had land and a home.

If 'land grabs' are so very terrible - why aren't the Arab League states being pressured to make reparation for what they stole?

Seems like a separate discussion.

If being 'second class citizens' is so terrible - why aren't the Arab League states being told to stop discriminating against Palestinians in terms of citizenship, jobs, human rights?

Again a separate discussion.

Do answer this then if the arab muslim squatters already had a land and home why did they own so little of it prior to the mandate. They might have occupied the land but they did not own it, nor did they see it as their homeland until 1960 when Arafat told then to fight for what was never theirs.
The many pro Palestinians produce links that show the Jews only owned 7% of the land, but deliberately miss out the fact that the arab muslims owned less than 1% of the land.

 

[Phoenall]

It is always amuses me- They call the people of Gaza and Judea and Samaria "Palestinian refugees".


I'm sorry, but.....what?

Palestinian refugees? But of what state? Palestine? There was never a Palestine to start with.

Oh, you mean, maybe refugees of the Palestine we agree on, in the 1967 borders.

But then...It means they're refugees in the same lands which are to be in a future Palestinian state.

So they are refugees of the same place they sit in?

That makes sense as much as people calling me an "Israeli refugee" or calling the people of London "Britian refugees" or Americans "New-York refugees".

So....What is that all about?

You can spin this anyway you like but the fact of the matter is that indigenous people were displaced to form a Jewish State.

And your concrete evidence that the majority of the arab muslims were indigenous, when the history books tell a completely different story. Even the Ottomans declared that Palestine was devoid of arab muslims, and tried to migrate them in 3 times.

 

[Phoenall]

You can spin this anyway you like but the fact of the matter is that indigenous people were displaced to form a Jewish State.

can you define "INDiGENOUS PEOPLE"??

People who lived in the area before they were invaded and pushed out by European Zionists.

So if they had lived there for 1 week they were indigenous, but if they had lived there for 20 years and came from Europe they were European Zionists.


By the way using the term Zionist in this context is RACIST and ANTI SEMITIC and you will be reported for it

 

[irosie91]

NO, it doesn't do a good job at all. It's very inaccurate.

For one thing, it NEVER mentions the just under one million people from many Arab League nations - who were beggared and ejected by the AL nations.

Relevance?
Patently false. http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_movement_access_2009_november_english.pdf
So the Palestinians are supposed to just accept the short end of the stick or be faced with relocation and violence. Gotcha.
Because they already had land and a home.
Seems like a separate discussion.

If being 'second class citizens' is so terrible - why aren't the Arab League states being told to stop discriminating against Palestinians in terms of citizenship, jobs, human rights?

Again a separate discussion.

Do answer this then if the arab muslim squatters already had a land and home why did they own so little of it prior to the mandate. They might have occupied the land but they did not own it, nor did they see it as their homeland until 1960 when Arafat told then to fight for what was never theirs.
The many pro Palestinians produce links that show the Jews only owned 7% of the land, but deliberately miss out the fact that the arab muslims owned less than 1% of the land.

It gets worse-----MANY MANY times I have come across islamo Nazi pig propaganda
which actually states "ARABS OWNED 93% of the land" and there are morons
who believe that crap

 

[jillian]

Besides the promotion of an improbable divestment and impractical boycott this video does a good job.

thanks for spreading the propaganda. it would probably be helpful if you didn't get your information from a youtube video posted by someone agitating for a unilaterally established "palestinian" state.

 

[Phoenall]

People who lived in the area before they were invaded and pushed out by European Zionists.

Dennis Prager, Not a Pallywood-made video.

The fact that there has never been a Palestinian state doesn't change the fact that Palestinians were pushed out of the area and continue being pushed out of the West Bank today.

The fact that the only Palestinian people prior to 1960 were the Jews should tell you, you are wrong

 

[Crystalclear]

You can spin this anyway you like but the fact of the matter is that indigenous people were displaced to form a Jewish State.

The indigenous people of Israel are the Jews.

The indigenous people of "Palestine" are the Jordanians.

How would you like it if you were kicked out of your house and off your land because some Europeans said that their Holy book meant that they had more of a right then you to live there?

Actually, the British who ruled the mandate Palestine said Jewish people could move to Palestine and live there together with the Arab inhabitants. The Arabs didn't want peace and started a war. They lost and many fled. It was their mistake, they wanted all of the country and couldn't live together with other groups of people.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Let's look at history...
[x] Jews kicked out of Israel by Babylonians, became part of Babylonian society, excelled, became an integral cornerstone of Babylonia.
[x] Jews conquered by Greece, became part of Greek society, excelled, became an integral cornerstone of Greece.
[x] Jews out of Israel by Rome, became part of Roman society, excelled, became an integral cornerstone of Rome.
In fact, Romans were converting to Rabbinical Judaism in droves; 20% of Rome was Jewish.

Ooh, can we?

[x] Judean rebel elites deported by Babylonians to keep a eye on them where they syncretised Babylonian religion with their own cult to create the Babylonian Talmud or "Judaism." Here they lived the high life until the Iranians conquered the Baylonians and Cyrus decreed they could go if they wanted. Some did, others didn't.
[x] Macedonians destroy the Achaemenid Empire and after Alexander dies, Seleucius gets to rule the area and commences proces of modernizing the place along Hellenistic lines, this is too much for some conservative religious fanatic terrorists who rebel and create a short lived mini-state.
[x] Seleucid empire conquered by Romans. Same set of religious fanatic terrorists cause problems for the Romans until they lose patience and wipe them out. Meanwhile the peaceful adherants of Judaism send out missionaries all over the Roman empire where the Jewish religion takes hold alongside Paganism until the rise of Christianity, then it all goes wrong and the Jewish peoples of the Roman Empire invent a myth of exile and spritiual redemption to keep their morale up, while the Christians go on to dominate most of the Western world.

There you go thats history, not the Zionist hasbara version.

Wow, where did you get that distorted, revisionist history from?

Jews had a right to rebel against Greece and Rome for their liberty. And Judaism, unlike Christianity, was never a missionary religion (with the lone exception of the Idumeans, for which they payed dearly under Herod).

 

[MHunterB]

How would you like it if you were kicked out of your house and off your land because some Europeans said that their Holy book meant that they had more of a right then you to live there?

Let's look at history...
[x] Jews kicked out of Israel by Babylonians, became part of Babylonian society, excelled, became an integral cornerstone of Babylonia.
[x] Jews conquered by Greece, became part of Greek society, excelled, became an integral cornerstone of Greece.
[x] Jews out of Israel by Rome, became part of Roman society, excelled, became an integral cornerstone of Rome.
In fact, Romans were converting to Rabbinical Judaism in droves; 20% of Rome was Jewish.

Any other questions designed to make you appear to be completely ignorant of history?

We live in a globalized modernized society ruled by international law. Land is not doled out based on wrongs done in antiquity. This piss poor argument doesn't make any sense.

That wasn't an 'argument': it was a history lesson. A pity some are unable to recognize a history lesson even when labeled as such......

Speaking of 'globalized modernized society': The UN is the 'international law' group which established the Mandate - and which split most of it off to become Jordan, AND which further divided the Mandate - and which assigned a portion of it to the State of Israel.

You seem to have forgotten all about the UN in your haste to seek to delegitimate that State - which indeed was established by international law.

 

[MHunterB]

How would you like it if you were kicked out of your house and off your land because some Europeans said that their Holy book meant that they had more of a right then you to live there?

Except that *that* isn't what happened. And if your little heart bleeds so for the poor refugee Palestinians - why don't you care about the Jewish Arab refugees created by the ethnic cleansing of Egypt, Syria, Iraq, etc, etc, etc, ????

Or are you still stuck on your stupid fantasy that all Israeli Jews are "European"? NOT EVEN HALF - you can google it for yourself.

I have always favored the Jews right of return to their native homes in Arab countries.

Where is their right of return organization? I will support it?

We're not stupid: we've no intention of allowing those lying thieves of the AL nations the chance to abuse us again. What we want - and DESERVE! - is just compensation for what was taken from us. We'll settle for that, and not even require those governments which conspired to commit ethnic cleansing to stand trial for their crimes. As long as they admit, apologize and compensate.

Your 'offer' of support is heavily ironic: after all, you are one of those who's advocated the US do as the Arab League cabal and strip American Jews of our civil rights.

 

[Penelope]

I won't bother to argue with you about anything I'm tired of this kind of repeating facts I have to write over and over again, Israel is the FIRST and ONLY state, you and you illegal settlements and fake refugees that came out of nowhere can find somewhere else.
How that kind of attitude sound? I'm sicking tired of rockets above my head and people tell me to leave, you are disrespectful and lack of common sense, I see no reason to befriend with you.

Israelites, Jacob had 12 sons , not just one. Also the Jews are all intermarried. The Israelites fought other people for the land and then lost it severeral times, till the Zionist movement begun in 1880 and it was lets go back to Judea, even when King Cyrus came to their aid and allowed them to return to Jerusalem, only 45000 did, the rest were happy in Babylon of which the Babylon Talmud was wrote.

Its Israel that wants all the land, and is building illegally. Lots of natural gas and oil in the Mediterranean Sea right, when does Palestine get its share. I think Israel owes a lot of money to Palestine.

 

[Zmrzlina]

can you define "INDiGENOUS PEOPLE"??

People who lived in the area before they were invaded and pushed out by European Zionists.

So if they had lived there for 1 week they were indigenous, but if they had lived there for 20 years and came from Europe they were European Zionists.


By the way using the term Zionist in this context is RACIST and ANTI SEMITIC and you will be reported for it

Zionist isn't a racist term. It is a proponent of Jewish nationalism. I used European because the British were Zionist as well in their assistance in transferring their Imperial power to the Jews. Also you must be new to this forum. I have reported actual hate speech and it fell on dead ears.

 

[Daniyel]

I won't bother to argue with you about anything I'm tired of this kind of repeating facts I have to write over and over again, Israel is the FIRST and ONLY state, you and you illegal settlements and fake refugees that came out of nowhere can find somewhere else.
How that kind of attitude sound? I'm sicking tired of rockets above my head and people tell me to leave, you are disrespectful and lack of common sense, I see no reason to befriend with you.

Israelites, Jacob had 12 sons , not just one. Also the Jews are all intermarried. The Israelites fought other people for the land and then lost it severeral times, till the Zionist movement begun in 1880 and it was lets go back to Judea, even when King Cyrus came to their aid and allowed them to return to Jerusalem, only 45000 did, the rest were happy in Babylon of which the Babylon Talmud was wrote.

Its Israel that wants all the land, and is building illegally. Lots of natural gas and oil in the Mediterranean Sea right, when does Palestine get its share. I think Israel owes a lot of money to Palestine.

So you want the bible answer for that? There you go.
God promised the land of Israel to the Israelis, period.
The 12 tribes of Israel are all Jewish and descendants of Jacob, since Jewish marry only with Jewish I don't see how those tribes blended with Palestinians which by the way reject the relation to those tribes, and considered as Nabi Ismail descendants, the brother of Isaac that poked him with arrows, that's why Sarah told Abraham to exile him.
Israel gave Sinai to the Egyptians along with all the oil, Israel does not posses oil except inside the meddaterrian sea inside Israel sea territory.

 

[MHunterB]

Israelites, Jacob had 12 sons , not just one.

Hebrews = Israelites = Children of Jacob = Jews. It's all the same: 'Jew' doesn't mean 'Judahite' only.

Also the Jews are all intermarried. So what? It's not 'blood' alone: Ruth was not a Jewess, and she was the great-grandmother of King David. Judaism accepts proselytes: in fact, there were so many Greek proselytes, the word originally was specific to people joining Judaism, not any other faith.


The Israelites fought other people for the land and then lost it severeral times, till the Zionist movement begun in 1880 and it was lets go back to Judea, even when King Cyrus came to their aid and allowed them to return to Jerusalem, only 45000 did, the rest were happy in Babylon of which the Babylon Talmud was wrote.

Zionism did not 'begin in 1880' - there were ALWAYS Jews trying to return to Judea to live there, in every single century. Look at the history of S'fat/Safed for one example: it was a great center of Talmudic study, in the 16th Century.... Just one example


Its Israel that wants all the land, and is building illegally.And you presume to 'know' what "Israel" wants exactly HOW? Do you think you 'know' what HAMAS wants? Or the PA?

Lots of natural gas and oil in the Mediterranean Sea right, when does Palestine get its share. I think Israel owes a lot of money to Palestine.There isn't any 'Palestine' yet - and they've already SOLD the mineral rights to two foreign companies, well 90% of them. Which deal had NOTHING to do with Israel, and wasn't made by Israel - so Israel 'owes' them NOTHING for that.

As for who owes who what - if the ONLY people you are interested in getting compensation for their losses for are the 'Palestinians', you'd be in violation of that 'international law' you keep yelping about. Oh, and it certainly would never be a 'just' arrangement while you choose to ignore the very well-documented ethnic cleansing crimes of Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and other Arab League nations.

My responses are in blue above.

 

[MHunterB]

Zionist isn't a racist term. It is a proponent of Jewish nationalism. I used European because the British were Zionist as well in their assistance in transferring their Imperial power to the Jews. Also you must be new to this forum. I have reported actual hate speech and it fell on dead ears.

Once the power was transferred, it was no longer 'European' - perhaps 'with European support' would have been a better way to express it. After all, the UN wasn't and isn't exclusively 'European' - and that's where the 'authority' comes from to establish nation-states from within any UN Mandate.

Considering you've only been here for two MONTHS, it's amusing to read your attempts to mischaracterize anyone else posting now as a newby. When one is evidently unable to read the 'joined' dates accompanying every post, it doesn't augur well for their powers of observation....... lol.

 

[irosie91]

from Zmrzlina>>>
People who lived in the area before they were invaded and pushed out by European Zionists.

from irosie
when did that happen, Zmrzlina? Ie --when were people invaded
by European Zionists and "pushed out"???

from zmrzlina>
Zionist isn't a racist term. It is a proponent of Jewish nationalism. I used European because the British were Zionist as well in their assistance in transferring their Imperial power to the Jews. Also you must be new to this forum. I have reported actual hate speech and it fell on dead ears.

from irosie
Zionist is used as a perjorative by persons who oppose them, just as "yankee"
was used a perjorative by southerners during the civil war. My sense is that
you use it as a perjorative. Your statement that the British were
Zionists is a little silly as is that "transferred their imperial power"---do you
refer to the formation of the kingdom of Jordan as a "transfer or imperial
power" by the brits? If I were to refer to "muslims" as colonizers and
oppressors? How about if I substitute the term "meccaists" for
"muslims"???

 

[Zmrzlina]

from irosie
when did that happen, Zmrzlina? Ie --when were people invaded
by European Zionists and "pushed out"???

from zmrzlina>
Zionist isn't a racist term. It is a proponent of Jewish nationalism. I used European because the British were Zionist as well in their assistance in transferring their Imperial power to the Jews. Also you must be new to this forum. I have reported actual hate speech and it fell on dead ears.

from irosie
Zionist is used as a perjorative by persons who oppose them, just as "yankee"
was used a perjorative by southerners during the civil war. My sense is that
you use it as a perjorative. Your statement that the British were
Zionists is a little silly as is that "transferred their imperial power"---do you
refer to the formation of the kingdom of Jordan as a "transfer or imperial
power" by the brits? If I were to refer to "muslims" as colonizers and
oppressors? How about if I substitute the term "meccaists" for
"muslims"???

So I'm an anti-semite because I'm arguing against certain aspects of Zionism? Good job at showing how ridiculous your side of the argument is.

 

[Zmrzlina]

Zionist isn't a racist term. It is a proponent of Jewish nationalism. I used European because the British were Zionist as well in their assistance in transferring their Imperial power to the Jews. Also you must be new to this forum. I have reported actual hate speech and it fell on dead ears.

Once the power was transferred, it was no longer 'European' - perhaps 'with European support' would have been a better way to express it. After all, the UN wasn't and isn't exclusively 'European' - and that's where the 'authority' comes from to establish nation-states from within any UN Mandate.

Considering you've only been here for two MONTHS, it's amusing to read your attempts to mischaracterize anyone else posting now as a newby. When one is evidently unable to read the 'joined' dates accompanying every post, it doesn't augur well for their powers of observation....... lol.

Go ahead and report me for anti-semitism because I disagree with you. Fascist.

 

[Daniyel]

Zionist isn't a racist term. It is a proponent of Jewish nationalism. I used European because the British were Zionist as well in their assistance in transferring their Imperial power to the Jews. Also you must be new to this forum. I have reported actual hate speech and it fell on dead ears.

Once the power was transferred, it was no longer 'European' - perhaps 'with European support' would have been a better way to express it. After all, the UN wasn't and isn't exclusively 'European' - and that's where the 'authority' comes from to establish nation-states from within any UN Mandate.

Considering you've only been here for two MONTHS, it's amusing to read your attempts to mischaracterize anyone else posting now as a newby. When one is evidently unable to read the 'joined' dates accompanying every post, it doesn't augur well for their powers of observation....... lol.

Go ahead and report me for anti-semitism because I disagree with you. Fascist.

I personally don't mind if you are anti semi at all, but I do mind once you bring false or fake facts to dispose me or any other.

 

[irosie91]

I have always favored the Jews right of return to their native homes in Arab countries.

Where is their right of return organization? I will support it?

You raise an interesting point, Mr tin. It is one I have considered----my husband
was born in a shariah cesspit-------I have a wonderful idea----lets discuss the
matter with the new CALIPH in Iraq----there are lots of Iraqi jews in the
world . We could do a test run-----lets get a few Hundred Iraqi jews to
return to Iraq----(first ask the CALIPH) and they could be a kind of test
group to test under what circumstance "arabs" should return to Israel and
how they should be governed. Would that work for you?