Islam is not inherently evil

[Gideonprime]

No, they don't worship the same God. That is a lie. If they worship the same God, then why does the Quran instruct to not make friends with Christians or Jews?

Uhh it doesn't it tells followers to be respectful of people of the book.

It is not a lie, all three religions worship the same god. I would suggest you learn a bit more about it before you start calling people liars.

I suggest you learn a bit more about it before you open your mouth and tell someone else too.

Getting your panties in a wad does not make the truth of it any less true. All three of those religion worship the god of abraham.

Sorry it makes you so tweaked but facts are facts.

 

[Uncensored2008]

An idea is not in itself evil nor good.

Ignorant nonsense - only an idea can be good or evil.

The action makes it so.

Ahmed knows Joe is a homosexual. Ahmed is a devout Muslim, so he follows Joe one night, catching him in an alley. Praise be to Allah and Muhammad, Ahmed follows the Holy Koran and cuts off Joe's head with a knife.

John is married to Becky and loves her. One night, Jerome breaks in to rob the house for crack money. He sees Becky and wants to rape her, but as her rips her nightgown from her, John scrambles to the dresser, retrieves his .38, and puts a bullet in Jerome's head.

In your absurd nonsense, both acts are the same, because "killing is evil." Among rational, and civilized people however, a far different perspective is had. Ahmed was evil based on the IDEAS and motives that caused him to kill. John was good based on the ideas and motives which caused him to kill.

If we lived in caves, then what you claim would have merit, but we do not. We have a well developed understanding of ethics. We have Locke and Kant and Machiavelli to study and understand. We are beings with the capacity to reason, whether we choose to do so or not.

I can think evil things all night and then tend to the sick and needy all day.

No, you actually cannot.

Would I be called good or evil when I die?

Evil, because you will invariably manifest the evil of your thoughts in action. Such is the human condition.

"When you look into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you."
Friedrich Nietzsche

 

[Skull Pilot]

For 500 years Muslims raped and enslaved Christian women, taxed Christian men for no reason and took their land away only to murder them in cold blood because they "were" Christian before the first Crusade was called to stop the Muslim menace. If this isn't a testament to Christian faith and tolerance what is?

Christians beheaded people who would not convert. Killed Pagan priests and burned temples. So what's your point?

That religions have spawned some of the greatest evil in the world?

 

[Uncensored2008]

Uhh it doesn't it tells followers to be respectful of people of the book.

Only if they accept the rule of Muslims with willing submission, otherwise they are to be murdered.

It is not a lie, all three religions worship the same god.

Utter nonsense. "Gods" are constructs. Allah is based on the Mesopotamian "moon god" Al-Ilah (the god). The idol of Al-Ilah in the Kaaba is the Phallic or Black Stone, Muslims bow to this idol five times daily, and travel to Mecca to kiss the idol. Allah is constructed from Al-Ilah, who the Hebrews called "Ba'al"

I would suggest you learn a bit more about it before you start calling people liars.

Indeed, though I suspect your is not a matter of knowledge.

 

[Skull Pilot]

An idea is not in itself evil nor good.

Ignorant nonsense - only an idea can be good or evil.

The action makes it so.

Ahmed knows Joe is a homosexual. Ahmed is a devout Muslim, so he follows Joe one night, catching him in an alley. Praise be to Allah and Muhammad, Ahmed follows the Holy Koran and cuts off Joe's head with a knife.

And act of murder. The words in the Koran did not cause the murder the guy with the knife did.

John is married to Becky and loves her. One night, Jerome breaks in to rob the house for crack money. He sees Becky and wants to rape her, but as her rips her nightgown from her, John scrambles to the dresser, retrieves his .38, and puts a bullet in Jerome's head.

Defending one self is not considered evil and never has been.

In your absurd nonsense, both acts are the same, because "killing is evil." Among rational, and civilized people however, a far different perspective is had. Ahmed was evil based on the IDEAS and motives that caused him to kill. John was good based on the ideas and motives which caused him to kill.

Since we haven't mentioned self defense at all you have no right to tell me what I think of self defense.

Religious killings are not usually about self defense

If we lived in caves, then what you claim would have merit, but we do not. We have a well developed understanding of ethics. We have Locke and Kant and Machiavelli to study and understand. We are beings with the capacity to reason, whether we choose to do so or not.

Reason is all well and good but action is the only thing that manifests good or evil.

I can think evil things all night and then tend to the sick and needy all day.

No, you actually cannot.

I beg to differ. Of course I could. If you don't think you could then that's another thing altogether

Would I be called good or evil when I die?

Evil, because you will invariably manifest the evil of your thoughts in action. Such is the human condition.

Invariably? To use that word in regards to human behavior illustrates your poor grasp of the subject

"When you look into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you."
Friedrich Nietzsche

And what? the abyss makes me do bad things?

Stop with the boogey man stories.

 

[Gideonprime]

Uhh it doesn't it tells followers to be respectful of people of the book.

Only if they accept the rule of Muslims with willing submission, otherwise they are to be murdered.

It is not a lie, all three religions worship the same god.

Utter nonsense. "Gods" are constructs. Allah is based on the Mesopotamian "moon god" Al-Ilah (the god). The idol of Al-Ilah in the Kaaba is the Phallic or Black Stone, Muslims bow to this idol five times daily, and travel to Mecca to kiss the idol. Allah is constructed from Al-Ilah, who the Hebrews called "Ba'al"

I would suggest you learn a bit more about it before you start calling people liars.

Indeed, though I suspect your is not a matter of knowledge.

You may suspect what you wish.

I've heard over and over about the whole "Moon Cult" nonsense.

However, since muslims believe they are worshipping God (the hebrew and christian God). I think I'll go with those in the know.

 

[Uncensored2008]

To the Bolded - Of course they were not good. However, at that time in history they were doing what the europeans did in the 1500's onward. It was the first world invading the third world.

So it was a reaction to events that would occur 800 years in the future? That certainly justifies the Muslim empire crushing all beneath their feet.

Earopeans were poor dirty and little more than savages before the crusades.

Or at least you're willing to fabricate such a scenario.

Their tools and weapons were of inferior quailty their math and science did not really even exist.

Myths born of prejudice are fun, aren't they?

Europe was a disjointed land, settling from the Viking invasion. To claim no knowledge of math and science begs the question of all those damned castles, trebuchets, mills, water-wheels and other items that were present.

Don't get me wrong, facts are irrelevant when promoting Islam..

Most of what made europe great were stolen from the Middle East during the crusades.

ROFL

Yes, and the television was created by American Indians in the 1600's and stolen by the evil whites.

I've encountered your type before. All that is good is from Islam...

In fact though, higher mathematics came from China, not the Arabs. The Muslims were along the trade routes, thus benefited before Europe based on contact with the far east. This is not to say that there were not some great thinkers.

Still, to give Islam the credit for Ahmad ibn Rushd and so many other illustrious thinkers, who passed half their life in prison, in forced hiding, in disgrace, whose books were burned and whose writings almost suppressed by theological authority, is as if one were to ascribe to the Inquisition the discoveries of Galileo, and a whole scientific development which it was not able to prevent.

The Middle east had the advantage from teh time of early settlement of humans so at that point in history . . .they happened to be on top. Like europe was and like we are(well more or less).

The Middle East was conquered by the Warlord Muhammad and his hoards, what they had, they took by force of arms.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Christians beheaded people who would not convert.

You can provide evince of this?

Didn't think so.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The Crusades were nothing but a series of religious wars sanctioned by the Catholic Church.

Based on the Muslim invasion of Europe.

Agents of the church killed people. Hence the church is evil.

But of course the invading Muslims were good.

Actions define good and evil and the Christian religion has a long history of torture and murder.

The Catholic church certainly does. Difference is that no one excuses or condones the actions of the Catholics, not the way you excuse the Muslims.

Where have I excused Muslims of anything?

 

[NeoTemplar]

Uhh it doesn't it tells followers to be respectful of people of the book.

It is not a lie, all three religions worship the same god. I would suggest you learn a bit more about it before you start calling people liars.

I suggest you learn a bit more about it before you open your mouth and tell someone else too.

Getting your panties in a wad does not make the truth of it any less true. All three of those religion worship the god of abraham.

Sorry it makes you so tweaked but facts are facts.

Your right facts are facts to bad you don't have any.

The Crusades were nothing but a series of religious wars sanctioned by the Catholic Church.

Based on the Muslim invasion of Europe.



But of course the invading Muslims were good.

Actions define good and evil and the Christian religion has a long history of torture and murder.

The Catholic church certainly does. Difference is that no one excuses or condones the actions of the Catholics, not the way you excuse the Muslims.

To the Bolded - Of course they were not good. However, at that time in history they were doing what the europeans did in the 1500's onward. It was the first world invading the third world.

Earopeans were poor dirty and little more than savages before the crusades.

Their tools and weapons were of inferior quailty their math and science did not really even exist.

Most of what made europe great were stolen from the Middle East during the crusades.
The Middle east had the advantage from teh time of early settlement of humans so at that point in history . . .they happened to be on top. Like europe was and like we are(well more or less).

Bullshit, The Byzantines were half of the separated Roman Empire and most of what made Rome great came from Greece also the only intelligent race in the middle east were the Persians and most of their knowledge was lost when they were conquered by the Muslims, what little Knowledge the Muslims had came mostly from the Persians.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Christians beheaded people who would not convert.

You can provide evince of this?

Didn't think so.

I wouldn't post it if I couldn't source it.

The Historical Charlemagne

Charlemagne several times spared the lives of his defeated foes; yet in 782 at Verden, after a Saxon uprising, he ordered 4,500 Saxons beheaded.

 

[NeoTemplar]

Christians beheaded people who would not convert.

You can provide evince of this?

Didn't think so.

I wouldn't post it if I couldn't source it.

The Historical Charlemagne

Charlemagne several times spared the lives of his defeated foes; yet in 782 at Verden, after a Saxon uprising, he ordered 4,500 Saxons beheaded.

You dumbass that was a tactical move any military leader would have beheaded the Saxons, it had nothing to do with Religion.

In an age when the usual penalty for defeat was death, Charlemagne several times spared the lives of his defeated foes; yet in 782 at Verden, after a Saxon uprising, he ordered 4,500 Saxons beheaded.

 

[Gideonprime]

To the Bolded - Of course they were not good. However, at that time in history they were doing what the europeans did in the 1500's onward. It was the first world invading the third world.

So it was a reaction to events that would occur 800 years in the future? That certainly justifies the Muslim empire crushing all beneath their feet.

Earopeans were poor dirty and little more than savages before the crusades.

Or at least you're willing to fabricate such a scenario.



Myths born of prejudice are fun, aren't they?

Europe was a disjointed land, settling from the Viking invasion. To claim no knowledge of math and science begs the question of all those damned castles, trebuchets, mills, water-wheels and other items that were present.

Don't get me wrong, facts are irrelevant when promoting Islam..

Most of what made europe great were stolen from the Middle East during the crusades.

ROFL

Yes, and the television was created by American Indians in the 1600's and stolen by the evil whites.

I've encountered your type before. All that is good is from Islam...

In fact though, higher mathematics came from China, not the Arabs. The Muslims were along the trade routes, thus benefited before Europe based on contact with the far east. This is not to say that there were not some great thinkers.

Still, to give Islam the credit for Ahmad ibn Rushd and so many other illustrious thinkers, who passed half their life in prison, in forced hiding, in disgrace, whose books were burned and whose writings almost suppressed by theological authority, is as if one were to ascribe to the Inquisition the discoveries of Galileo, and a whole scientific development which it was not able to prevent.

The Middle east had the advantage from teh time of early settlement of humans so at that point in history . . .they happened to be on top. Like europe was and like we are(well more or less).

The Middle East was conquered by the Warlord Muhammad and his hoards, what they had, they took by force of arms.

Oh I am not promoting Islam. I dislike all religions equally.

Lets do this in order shall we - My point was not that it was a reaction to what happened years later - it was to point out that the Eurpeans ddid later the same thing the muslims were doing then - Taking superior tech and "exploring" the world. What you think the Europeans were not "Crushing all beneath their feet? Think again.

Have you heard of Damaskus Steel? It is what the Muslim were using - It was far suprerior to the steel of the Europeans - Why do you thnk the Europeans left Smiths alive? It wasn't because they were converting to Christianity - They were useful and better at the craft than European Smiths.

Did I say Europe had no technology or science? Only that Arabic science and math was superior. Yes China also had higher math and guess what The Muslims (arabs) were trading through out their known world long before Europe was and yes they benefitted first. Just as the US did and now China and other less developed but fast developing countries are doing with our technology. At least you addmitted the truth in that. Those castles etc were made with a 13 knot rope . . .not really high tech. Capable of lovely things and great feats of arcitechture to be sure but not high tech.

I think you are trying to make me out tp be something that I am not - I am merely being honest about history. Your Euro-centric view of history (or at least what you seem to be opartraying here) is . . .less than accurate.

SO the ME was not settled first? Really? You gonna stick with that?

 

[Skull Pilot]

You can provide evince of this?

Didn't think so.

I wouldn't post it if I couldn't source it.

The Historical Charlemagne

Charlemagne several times spared the lives of his defeated foes; yet in 782 at Verden, after a Saxon uprising, he ordered 4,500 Saxons beheaded.

You dumbass that was a tactical move any military leader would have beheaded the Saxons, it had nothing to do with Religion.

Prove it.

He founded sees, issued a decree banning the rites of the heathen gods, and ordered the Saxons to be baptized and to pay tithes. The only result was another large raid on the Franks, after which the emperor beheaded 4,000 Saxons at Verden. The war went on, with Saxons burning new churches, killing Christian priests, and rebuilding the shrines of the gods. 2

2 Owen Chadwick, A History of Christianity (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1995), p. 101

http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/ma.stm

 

[Uncensored2008]

Where have I excused Muslims of anything?

In the last 50 posts of this thread.

 

[sitarro]

In the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, colonizers justified the slaughter and exploitation of the Indians in the New World by arguing that the Indian “savages” were wild animals, idolaters whom God had ordained to be enslaved by Christians.
Hans Koning, The Conquest of America: How the Indian Nations Lost Their Continent (New York: Cornerstone Press, 1993), p 27.

The enslavement of Africans was similarly justified through the book of Genesis. It was argued that Africans were a cursed people (drawn from the myth of the Curse of Ham or Canaan) whose skin color had blackened to mark the curse. Thus, even after the African slaves converted to Christianity they could be retained as slaves.
George Fredrickson, Racism: A Short History (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2002), p 40–47.
International Socialist Review

Nice history lesson....... do you have anything from a time that we didn't use walking for our only source of transportation...... how about since the 8 track tape.......can you pull up something from the last 50 years?

 

[Uncensored2008]

I wouldn't post it if I couldn't source it.

The Historical Charlemagne

Charlemagne several times spared the lives of his defeated foes; yet in 782 at Verden, after a Saxon uprising, he ordered 4,500 Saxons beheaded.

So, that says nothing of cutting the heads off of those who wouldn't convert. We know about the wars with the Saxons, but wars are wars.

 

[Gideonprime]

Bullshit, The Byzantines were half of the separated Roman Empire and most of what made Rome great came from Greece also the only intelligent race in the middle east were the Persians and most of their knowledge was lost when they were conquered by the Muslims, what little Knowledge the Muslims had came mostly from the Persians.

I thik you are missing the point. I never said that teh Muslims did not get their tech from other sources.

They had beeter weapons, better math and better science than the vast majority of Europe at the time of the crusades.

How they obtained it was not part of that truth.

Only that their steel was superior, their navigation was better, etc.

They got their tech, europe (the majority of it, spain, france gremany, the UK (not that it was the UK then) all benefitted from that tech, teken during the crusades and tehnw eent on to conquer and rule most of the rest of the planet.

Now I don;t here you whining about how horrible the Europeans were for taking it from those they conquered or belittling them as you are the Muslimswho get some if their tech through the exact same route?

Biased much?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Where have I excused Muslims of anything?

In the last 50 posts of this thread.

You're wrong as usual.

I have stated that words in a book are neither inherently good nor inherently evil and that actions are what manifest good or evil.

you're going to have to explain how you got "excusing Muslims" from that

 

[Skull Pilot]

I wouldn't post it if I couldn't source it.

The Historical Charlemagne

Charlemagne several times spared the lives of his defeated foes; yet in 782 at Verden, after a Saxon uprising, he ordered 4,500 Saxons beheaded.

So, that says nothing of cutting the heads off of those who wouldn't convert. We know about the wars with the Saxons, but wars are wars.

Charlemagne was hell bent on converting the Saxons to Christianity. Deny it if you want but conversion under threat of violence is a recurring theme in the Christian religion.