CDZ Islam and Muslims

[Sunni Man]

How do you think about the fact that mohamed invented Islam ?

lets take mekka and the khabba

before mohamed

mekkha was the local center for gods, every tribe had a god and every god was in the khabba(see the koran, its writen there)

so mekka made money of all the tribes comming to mekka to worship their gods in the kabba (see the koran its writen there)

then mohamed decided, ey lets get rid of all these small gods and take the gods of the christians and jews and steal him and make him the god of our city, mekka and we will make a lot off money.


and so mohamed invented islam to make money for mekka

itd an obviouse invention because islam although claiming to be in continuety with the thora and new testament, simply igonores them and says they are wrong so mekka can make money

what do you think ?

All muslims believe that Islam was divinely given to Prophet Muhammad.

Anything other than that is considered blasphemy. .....

 

[hauke]

sure whatever : 1 tenth of your inheritance goes to the children of your wife 9 tenth to your children

does that mean your wife got difrent children then you ?

so your wifes children are not yours ?

how do you explain that sure and don t tell me "i don t know what the koran means, there will be someone in the future who can tell what the koran means"

 

[Kristian]

The name are moslem on Islam and for God.

 

[Kristian]

God is normally and corretly and are Jew in old testament and profit Jesus was long time back a Jew before he get spiked to death. Today he is Catholicism or all Christians God in every Bible in every Christian religion.

 

[Coyote]

Folks, please remember this thread is in the CDZ - that means no flaming, insulting or derailing the thread. Please stay on topic (refer to post #1 if you can't remember it).

 

[Kristian]

That's okey.

 

[320 Years of History]

Is there a way to know who is Sunni and who is Shiite by just appearances?

edit; I asked because if Sunni's are discriminated against in Iran how do you know who is which?

???

• Can one tell an Italian from a Frenchman from an Englishman from an American just by appearances?
• Can one tell a Roman Catholic from an Greek Orthodox Catholic just by appearances?
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Can one tell a Pentecostal from and Episcopalian just by appearances?
  
  
  

I'm not taking umbrage at the basic theme of your inquiry: how one can tell Shiites from Sunnis. It's the "just by appearances" aspect that I find disturbing. I find it unsettling because attaching that phrase to what otherwise would have been a perfectly neutral and reasonable question to ask "loads" the question with the implication that substantive differences among folks' theological beliefs, in their character, be discernable through mere outward appearance.

That line of thinking -- that substance is discernable through mere appearance -- is what is at the heart of American racism and its attendant discrimination, but outside of the U.S., people haven't for over a century generally relied upon mere appearances as a legitimate basis for concluding upon another's intangible traits, qualities that are in, or that derive from what's in, one's' mind. I don't know what it is with many Americans that they are wont to make "everything" that matters boil down to a highly simplified "label," and then using that "label," put "everyone" into their "tidy little box." It'd be nice were that a tenable modality. Hundreds of years ago when there were sumptuary laws, judging based on outward appearances was reasonable, but these days, it's not; the world, humanity, is more complex than that.


So, getting back to your question: can one tell Sunnis from Shiites? Basically, no, although locals and others who know a person and the particulars of their own small(ish) community can tell to some extent. One must know something more than what a person looks like in order to tell. What might some of those additional pieces of information be?

• One's first or last name may help. Given the names of the central characters in the schism between Sunnis and Shiites, it's more likely that a man named Ali, Hassan, or Hussein would be a Shiite. A man named Omar, Abu Bakr, or Yazid would almost certainly be a Sunni, since these names correspond to the opponents of the first imams and the major villains of Shiite history. (Yazid, for example, is said to have assassinated Hussein.) Other names can't be linked to one sect or the other: You'll find plenty of Muslims from both camps named after Mohammed or his daughter Fatima.
• To which call to prayer an individual responds. The language and timing of the calls to prayer for the two sects are slightly different.
• The decorations one has in their home. Often household decorative effects pertain to one or the other sect.
• At which mosque at which a person worships. That said, I suspect, though I don't know for sure, that a Muslim person may well worship at a mosque that's convenient much as non-Episcopalian Presidents have worshiped at St. John's simply because, among other things, it's across the street from where they live.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

One thing worth noting is that like "ultra-devout" Jews and adherents of other religions, ultra-religious/very conservative believers may do or not do things that less orthodox believers may or that they may not. For example, some very conservative Sunnis may not wear a necktie (Note: Though it's so that Wahhabis are at least ostensibly very conservative, it'd be a mistake to conclude that any one or every very conservative Sunni is Wahhabist.)

So, yes, it'd be nice to be able to generalize in the way implied by your original question; however, intellectual integrity, even simple sagacity, and fairness dictate that one refrain from doing so. Better, if one must know, to just ask a person if they are Shiite or Sunni.

 

[RodISHI]

Is there a way to know who is Sunni and who is Shiite by just appearances?

edit; I asked because if Sunni's are discriminated against in Iran how do you know who is which?

???

• Can one tell an Italian from a Frenchman from an Englishman from an American just by appearances?
• Can one tell a Roman Catholic from an Greek Orthodox Catholic just by appearances?
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Can one tell a Pentecostal from and Episcopalian just by appearances?
  
  
  

I'm not taking umbrage at the basic theme of your inquiry: how one can tell Shiites from Sunnis. It's the "just by appearances" aspect that I find disturbing. I find it unsettling because attaching that phrase to what otherwise would have been a perfectly neutral and reasonable question to ask "loads" the question with the implication that substantive differences among folks' theological beliefs, in their character, be discernable through mere outward appearance.

That line of thinking -- that substance is discernable through mere appearance -- is what is at the heart of American racism and its attendant discrimination, but outside of the U.S., people haven't for over a century generally relied upon mere appearances as a legitimate basis for concluding upon another's intangible traits, qualities that are in, or that derive from what's in, one's' mind. I don't know what it is with many Americans that they are wont to make "everything" that matters boil down to a highly simplified "label," and then using that "label," put "everyone" into their "tidy little box." It'd be nice were that a tenable modality. Hundreds of years ago when there were sumptuary laws, judging based on outward appearances was reasonable, but these days, it's not; the world, humanity, is more complex than that.


So, getting back to your question: can one tell Sunnis from Shiites? Basically, no. One must know something more than what a person looks like in order to tell. What might some of those additional pieces of information be?

• One's first or last name may help. Given the names of the central characters in the schism between Sunnis and Shiites, it's more likely that a man named Ali, Hassan, or Hussein would be a Shiite. A man named Omar, Abu Bakr, or Yazid would almost certainly be a Sunni, since these names correspond to the opponents of the first imams and the major villains of Shiite history. (Yazid, for example, is said to have assassinated Hussein.) Other names can't be linked to one sect or the other: You'll find plenty of Muslims from both camps named after Mohammed or his daughter Fatima.
• To which call to prayer an individual responds. The language and timing of the calls to prayer for the two sects are slightly different.
• The decorations one has in their home. Often household decorative effects pertain to one or the other sect.
• At which mosque at which a person worships. That said, I suspect, though I don't know for sure, that a Muslim person may well worship at a mosque that's convenient much as non-Episcopalian Presidents have worshiped at St. John's simply because, among other things, it's across the street from where they live.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

One thing worth noting is that like "ultra-devout" Jews and adherents of other religions, ultra-religious/very conservative believers may do or not do things that less orthodox believers may or that they may not. For example, some very conservative Sunnis may not wear a necktie (Note: Though it's so that Wahhabis are at least ostensibly very conservative, it'd be a mistake to conclude that any one or every very conservative Sunni is Wahhabist.)

So, yes, it'd be nice to be able to generalize in the way implied by your original question; however, intellectual integrity, even simple sagacity, and fairness dictate that one refrain from doing so. Better, if one must know, to just ask a person if they are Shiite or Sunni.

I do not general use looks or even speech to determine anything. I am more of a notice them by their fruits type person. Sunni man is a good example of that when he first came on to the board he was a raving raging idiot but his heart even showed through that. The boards best Pagan calmed him.

 

[Sunni Man]

• • One's first or last name may help. Given the names of the central characters in the schism between Sunnis and Shiites, it's more likely that a man named Ali, Hassan, or Hussein would be a Shiite.

  • Incorrect.
  
  I have known many Sunni muslims named Ali, Hassan, and Hussein.

In fact, Ali is the most popular name after Muhammad among Sunni muslims. ......

 

[320 Years of History]

Is there a way to know who is Sunni and who is Shiite by just appearances?

edit; I asked because if Sunni's are discriminated against in Iran how do you know who is which?

???

• Can one tell an Italian from a Frenchman from an Englishman from an American just by appearances?
• Can one tell a Roman Catholic from an Greek Orthodox Catholic just by appearances?
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Can one tell a Pentecostal from and Episcopalian just by appearances?
  
  
  

I'm not taking umbrage at the basic theme of your inquiry: how one can tell Shiites from Sunnis. It's the "just by appearances" aspect that I find disturbing. I find it unsettling because attaching that phrase to what otherwise would have been a perfectly neutral and reasonable question to ask "loads" the question with the implication that substantive differences among folks' theological beliefs, in their character, be discernable through mere outward appearance.

That line of thinking -- that substance is discernable through mere appearance -- is what is at the heart of American racism and its attendant discrimination, but outside of the U.S., people haven't for over a century generally relied upon mere appearances as a legitimate basis for concluding upon another's intangible traits, qualities that are in, or that derive from what's in, one's' mind. I don't know what it is with many Americans that they are wont to make "everything" that matters boil down to a highly simplified "label," and then using that "label," put "everyone" into their "tidy little box." It'd be nice were that a tenable modality. Hundreds of years ago when there were sumptuary laws, judging based on outward appearances was reasonable, but these days, it's not; the world, humanity, is more complex than that.


So, getting back to your question: can one tell Sunnis from Shiites? Basically, no. One must know something more than what a person looks like in order to tell. What might some of those additional pieces of information be?

• One's first or last name may help. Given the names of the central characters in the schism between Sunnis and Shiites, it's more likely that a man named Ali, Hassan, or Hussein would be a Shiite. A man named Omar, Abu Bakr, or Yazid would almost certainly be a Sunni, since these names correspond to the opponents of the first imams and the major villains of Shiite history. (Yazid, for example, is said to have assassinated Hussein.) Other names can't be linked to one sect or the other: You'll find plenty of Muslims from both camps named after Mohammed or his daughter Fatima.
• To which call to prayer an individual responds. The language and timing of the calls to prayer for the two sects are slightly different.
• The decorations one has in their home. Often household decorative effects pertain to one or the other sect.
• At which mosque at which a person worships. That said, I suspect, though I don't know for sure, that a Muslim person may well worship at a mosque that's convenient much as non-Episcopalian Presidents have worshiped at St. John's simply because, among other things, it's across the street from where they live.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

One thing worth noting is that like "ultra-devout" Jews and adherents of other religions, ultra-religious/very conservative believers may do or not do things that less orthodox believers may or that they may not. For example, some very conservative Sunnis may not wear a necktie (Note: Though it's so that Wahhabis are at least ostensibly very conservative, it'd be a mistake to conclude that any one or every very conservative Sunni is Wahhabist.)

So, yes, it'd be nice to be able to generalize in the way implied by your original question; however, intellectual integrity, even simple sagacity, and fairness dictate that one refrain from doing so. Better, if one must know, to just ask a person if they are Shiite or Sunni.

I do not general use looks or even speech to determine anything. I am more of a notice them by their fruits type person. Sunni man is a good example of that when he first came on to the board he was a raving raging idiot but his heart even showed through that. The boards best Pagan calmed him.

Red:
Okay....I didn't see anything in your question and accompanying remark that indicated you do or you don't. I commented on the character of the question, not your character or your thinking. There's no need to internalize/personalize my response to your question and assert your egalitarian nature, unless you feel you must....

You asked the question, but that you asked that question, particularly in this thread where members have been entreated to inquire about Islam/Muslims, doesn't tell other anything about the nature of what or how you think. Such is the difference between what a reader my conclude from a question versus from a statement.

 

[Tresha91203]

The seclusion and separation of women is known as "purdah" (curtain) in muslim culture.

The word is used to describe the practice of physically segregating women from from men in social situations. Such as seating in restaurants, public events, or at the mosque. And to denote the concealing of a female's body "arwa" (beauty) with clothing that covers her skin and hair.

The rules of purdah allow a woman to uncover herself in her home around male relatives that she would not be allowed to marry; father, uncles, brothers, sons.

If you are invited to visit inside a muslim home. The women will either be covered, or completely absent from view, depending on the country they are from. ......

This would be something I could live with if I were a believer. As an introvert, the vast majority of my time is spent at home taking care of the moms (we have both mothers on the property with us). Husband would likely have to invest in a wall around the property if he wanted me to continue mowing and maintaining the acreage. I don't see how it would be possible to work outside here (90+ degrees with 80%+ humidity) in a burka without ending up in the ER.

My concern would be the punishments for things I have no control over (peeping Tom's for instance).

 

[Sunni Man]

.

My concern would be the punishments for things I have no control over (peeping Tom's for instance).

There is no punishment for a woman because of a stalker.

If you see one just call the police and they will deal with him. ......

 

[320 Years of History]

• • One's first or last name may help. Given the names of the central characters in the schism between Sunnis and Shiites, it's more likely that a man named Ali, Hassan, or Hussein would be a Shiite.

  • Incorrect.
  
  I have known many Sunni muslims named Ali, Hassan, and Hussein.

In fact, Ali is the most popular name after Muhammad among Sunni muslims. ......

Notice I wrote "may" help, not "is" an assured way to tell. I could have done without citing "Ali." It is common to both sects, but I think Ali is more common among Shiites. That said, in retrospect I agree with you; it's too common -- no matter the somewhat greater predominance of it among shiites -- either way to use it as a just indicator.

Truly, however, the thrust of my post was about eschewing generalizations on Muslims' state of mind based on their mere appearance.

 

[Sunni Man]

Like I said earlier, I can generally tell which country a muslim man or woman is from just by looking at their physical features and their clothes. And also deduce whether they are Sunni, Shia, or another sect. .....

 

[320 Years of History]

Like I said earlier, I can basically tell which country a muslim man or woman is from just by looking at them and their clothes. And also deduce whether they are Sunni, Shia, or another sect. .....

Yes, fine. But that constitutes utilizing more information than mere appearance.

• Appearance/Style of dress --> Country of origin --> Sunni or Shiite
• Appearance --> Sunni or Shiite

 

[Sunni Man]

One aspect of muslim behavior that I hear people comment about and seems quite puzzling. Is that right before a so called suicide bombing or airplane hi-jacking. Some times it's reported the Shahid (martyr) was seen drinking and partying at strip clubs. Not all of them exhibit this behavior but some do.

In Islam a shahid upon the moment of death will be forgiven all past sins and be immediately granted entrance into Paradise (heaven). So their rational is why not experience a day of earthly sin. Because when they die all will be forgiven.

The majority of muslims who embrace martyrdom are very religious and wouldn't think of engaging in this type of sordid behavior before their death. ......


*disclaimer* I am not condoning or encouraging the subject of this post. Just providing information.

 

[Sunni Man]

Fun facts.

Most mosques have separate entrance doors for men and women. The doors are clearly marked with a sign stating gender.......Men.......Women.

Muslim men and women pray in different areas of the mosque. The men pray in the front portion of the prayer area, and the women pray behind the men. There is usually a curtain or some kind of barrier between the men and women section.

The ratio of men to women attending the prayers is at least 20 men for every woman. That's because women are encouraged to pray at home. Plus many of them have young children to attend to at home.

Children are welcomed into the mosque. Although most children go to the woman's section with their mothers. Some men have their son's and daughter's sit with them in the men's section. .......

 

[Staidhup]

The Muslim community will need to clean its own house first before respect will be granted. The west has no business in dictating or imposing cultural practices to be granted respect, that will come from within.

 

[Staidhup]

Let it not be forgotten that both the Muslim, Jewish, and Christian faiths come from Abraham by Hagar and Sarah, respectfully Ishmael and Isaac. All three faiths believe in one central God.

 

[Tresha91203]

.

My concern would be the punishments for things I have no control over (peeping Tom's for instance).

There is no punishment for a woman because of a stalker.

If you see one just call the police and they will deal with him. ......

That's good to know. I thought the word of a woman counts less than that of a man. In a "he said, she said" situation, i assumed the male would be believed. If my hair were uncovered while walking 15 feet from my back door to the cottage behind our house where my mother stays, and some peeping tom looks over a high brick/concrete wall (not some short or dinky vinyl/wood fence with slats), could i be punished?

I am speaking of real precautions: high walls, solid walls, house set far enough back from the wall that no one could see in windows without tresspassing or using scopes/binoculars, windows with 1-way tint so they cannot be looked through. I am not speaking of picket fences that can be seen through without actively trying or windows with drapes wide open. If my precautions are serious but they fail through no fault of my own, could i expect society to blame the perpetrator rather than me, even if the perpetrator is male and i had no male witness on my behalf, just me and the moms?

There are some Christian religions that require high levels of modesty even inside their homes with no guests present. One of those religions does not allow air conditioning. This religion cannot flourish in some climates.

I would be very uncomfortable being accountable to both God and my husband. I understand the concept of submission, the practicality of it, and don't have an issue with it. I've pretty much submitted my whole life. However, one cannot effectively serve two masters. No man is perfect and all will be incorrect now and then. When Husband makes a decision that turns out to be not so good, i am not held accountable for that decision, even if I actively abide by it. I don't mind rules, even lots of rules, even if many rules are protocol. I am a structure and rules kind of gal. There is a certain comfort for me in following rules and living right.

I've never known a Muslim well enough to ask questions like this without feeling like it was rude or invasive, so I appreciate the opportunity. I hope I'm not nitpicky. I'm just curious if I'd be able to stay out of trouble if I made the effort. Islam is often presented in a way that makes me feel like I could try my best to live right and still end up stoned to death.