Zone1 Is Your Body a Temple or a Graveyard?

[Carl in Michigan]

^ That is the exact opposite of what Jesus taught.

Throughout the Bible, we are told to have an eternal perspective. We are reminded that this life is temporary; a “vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away.” (James 4:14) We are repeatedly told to set our minds on things above, not on earthly things. (Col 3:2, John 6:27, Matt 6:19-21, 1 John 2:15-17, 1 Peter 1:13-15, etc.)

Not only are we exhorted to have an eternal perspective, but we are warned against having the opposite mindset. In Philippians 3, Paul warns against having a temporal mindset, "with minds set on earthly things."

Also, instead of being like everyone else and having a worldly mindset and loving the aspects of this fallen world (which carnism absolutely is) Jesus made it crystal clear that we are supposed to want God's Kingdom and perfect will to be done HERE on earth as it is in heaven.

Here's a video for you. It addresses your point in a little more detail than my post above, but still in under 3 minutes. I made it for Christians who think just like you.

"To him that knows to do good, to do it not, it is a sin unto him."

Many of these people actually know better. They pray, "MY will be done on earth, not like it is in heaven"

 

[buttercup]

"To him that knows to do good, to do it not, it is a sin unto him."

Many of these people actually know better. They pray, "MY will be done on earth, not like it is in heaven"

Yeah, it really comes down to how much a person knows. I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt, and assume they just don't know how absolutely horrible (diabolical) the animal industries are. And if they don't know, then they're just acting on sincere ignorance, like a child does.

But when they DO know and STILL continue to partake in it, that's another matter. That's when that verse you posted absolutely applies.

 

[buttercup]

How would you deal with the feral hogs that are rampaging many regions of the country, or other destructive invasive species?

In this day and age, with all the technology we have, is it really THAT hard to figure out a different way to resolve that problem?

From a biblical perspective, animals are our responsibility. That means that it's up to US to resolve problems like the one you mentioned, and that doesn't mean taking the selfish and easy way out (massive killing.)

Do you really think that humans are not smart enough to figure out a different solution to that problem? I don't think it's a matter of not being smart enough. I think the will is just not there. Too many people just don't care about animals, and they have an extremely anthropocentric mindset. There's so much more to be said here, but we've been through all of this before, and I don't want to repeat myself. For now I'll post this quote for you:

God created animals clean and unclean and instructed us to eat only clean animals. If God designed our digestive systems as well as the animals he gave us to eat, what's the problem?

That is absolutely false, and demonstrably false. In the beginning, when God created animals and humans, He did NOT create them as "clean" or "unclean." Genesis 1 is very clear - ALL animals and humans were herbivores in the very beginning. (Genesis 1:29-30)

And the prophetic scriptures about the future peaceable kingdom are also clear - all creation will go back to being peaceful and herbivorous when Jesus returns. "The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox."

Predation was not God's design and not part of the ultimate plan. It is an aspect of this fallen world.

 

[Woodznutz]

^ That is the exact opposite of what Jesus taught.

Throughout the Bible, we are told to have an eternal perspective. We are reminded that this life is temporary; a “vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away.” (James 4:14) We are repeatedly told to set our minds on things above, not on earthly things. (Col 3:2, John 6:27, Matt 6:19-21, 1 John 2:15-17, 1 Peter 1:13-15, etc.)

Not only are we exhorted to have an eternal perspective, but we are warned against having the opposite mindset. In Philippians 3, Paul warns against having a temporal mindset, "with minds set on earthly things."

Also, instead of being like everyone else and having a worldly mindset and loving the aspects of this fallen world (which carnism absolutely is) Jesus made it crystal clear that we are supposed to want God's Kingdom and perfect will to be done HERE on earth as it is in heaven.

Here's a video for you. It addresses your point in a little more detail than my post above, but still in under 3 minutes. I made it for Christians who think just like you.

I admire your zeal regarding veganism, I just don't agree with it. I see animal agriculture as a blessing (although I would make some changes in the way it's done).

 

[kathydunn]

Jesus instituted the new symbols while they were eating the Passover meal, which included roast lamb. It is clear that the disciples expected that Jesus would eat of the Passover lamb as he had done in previous seasons. No one knows if he abstained on that last Passover that he kept. That a lamb was prepared as usual is certain, however.

It is also unclear if was instituting new Passover symbols via the bread and wine or just wanting to be remembered anytime the disciples met together for a meal.

Hmmmm.... "...it is clear that the disciples expected that Jesus would eat of the Pasover lamb.."?? I see nothing in any of the new testament that would suggest they did. And how do you explain John's account who was an eye witness (Matthew, Mark, and Luke's authors were not 1st century eye witnesses; most scholars agree that the 4th gospel was written by John, the son of Zebedee who was one of the twelve disciples)? In John 20:28-31 it is written:
"Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” 29 A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. 30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. 31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath."

Jesus died on the day of Preparation. The actual Passover meal, the ceremonial eating of the meal, or the "seder," would begin later, just before sundown. This agrees with Exodus. So how would Jesus have been able to partake of any Passover meal and supposedly eat lamb? According to the Gospel of Mark, Jesus died by the 9th hour of the day or around 3 p.m.. Jesus WAS the Passover lamb!!! The sacrifice to END all other sacrifices!!

There is a lot of controversy around "the last supper" in scholarly circles, any google search will tell you this. I believe John's gospel is likely the most accurate since he was one of the 12 apostles.

There is also a lot of evidence that Jesus, his disciples, and the early church they started in the 1st century were vegetarian (equivalent to veganism today).

FNL # 90 - Evidence for Veganism in the Early Church

Were there any vegans in the early church? In this week's live talk we explore what sources say about these questions.

creationcarechurch.org

 

[Woodznutz]

In this day and age, with all the technology we have, is it really THAT hard to figure out a different way to resolve that problem?

From a biblical perspective, animals are our responsibility. That means that it's up to US to resolve problems like the one you mentioned, and that doesn't mean taking the selfish and easy way out (massive killing.)

Do you really think that humans are not smart enough to figure out a different solution to that problem? I don't think it's a matter of not being smart enough. I think the will is just not there. Too many people just don't care about animals, and they have an extremely anthropocentric mindset. There's so much more to be said here, but we've been through all of this before, and I don't want to repeat myself. For now I'll post this quote for you:


View attachment 928371




That is absolutely false, and demonstrably false. In the beginning, when God created animals and humans, He did NOT create them as "clean" or "unclean." Genesis 1 is very clear - ALL animals and humans were herbivores in the very beginning. (Genesis 1:29-30)

And the prophetic scriptures about the future peaceable kingdom are also clear - all creation will go back to being peaceful and herbivorous when Jesus returns. "The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox."

Predation was not God's design and not part of the ultimate plan. It is an aspect of this fallen world.

Recall that righteous Abel sacrificed animals as an offering to God. Cain's offering of things grown in the soil was rejected.

How would you deal with the feral hog problem?

 

[Woodznutz]

Hmmmm.... "...it is clear that the disciples expected that Jesus would eat of the Pasover lamb.."?? I see nothing in any of the new testament that would suggest they did. And how do you explain John's account who was an eye witness (Matthew, Mark, and Luke's authors were not 1st century eye witnesses; most scholars agree that the 4th gospel was written by John, the son of Zebedee who was one of the twelve disciples)? In John 20:28-31 it is written:
"Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” 29 A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. 30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. 31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath."

Jesus died on the day of Preparation. The actual Passover meal, the ceremonial eating of the meal, or the "seder," would begin later, just before sundown. This agrees with Exodus. So how would Jesus have been able to partake of any Passover meal and supposedly eat lamb? According to the Gospel of Mark, Jesus died by the 9th hour of the day or around 3 p.m.. Jesus WAS the Passover lamb!!! The sacrifice to END all other sacrifices!!

There is a lot of controversy around "the last supper" in scholarly circles, any google search will tell you this. I believe John's gospel is likely the most accurate since he was one of the 12 apostles.

There is also a lot of evidence that Jesus, his disciples, and the early church they started in the 1st century were vegetarian (equivalent to veganism today).

FNL # 90 - Evidence for Veganism in the Early Church

Were there any vegans in the early church? In this week's live talk we explore what sources say about these questions.

creationcarechurch.org

Jesus and the disciples ate the Passover the day before as Jesus would be killed on the actual day of Passover.

The term "Passover" only occurs 26 times in the New Testament (KJV). It's an easy study for anyone. It clearly shows that Jesus intended to eat the Passover meal of lamb.

I suggest biblegateway.com for easy word study searches in all bible versions. Save it in your 'favorites' for quick access when needed.

 

[buttercup]

Recall that righteous Abel sacrificed animals as an offering to God. Cain's offering of things grown in the soil was rejected.

How would you deal with the feral hog problem?

AGAIN, you're adding to the text. You're looking at things through your modern-day carnist lens.

Like I said the last couple times we had this discussion: Nowhere in that passage does it mention killing, or that Abel offered a dead lamb to God.

Using common sense, do you really think that a God of love would be pleased by the "gift" of a murdered lamb?

Keep in mind, this was long before flesh eating was even supposedly permitted.

So to infer that Abel presented a killed animal would suggest Abel did something contrary to what God instructed. Obviously God wouldn't be pleased by that.

When discussing that passage, first century Jewish historian Josephus wrote: “But Abel brought milk” In the phrase ‘the firstborn of the fat of his flock’ the word translated ‘fat’ in Hebrew is ֵcheleb, which is identical to the Hebrew word for ‘milk’ ָ(chalab), but with different vowels. Since vowels were not added to the Hebrew alphabet until hundreds of years after Josephus, it is likely that the original word describing Abel’s gift was milk rather than fat.

If so, then Abel presented to God a firstborn baby lamb nursing milk from the baby’s mother. Which makes much more sense for a number of reasons. Especially since that was long before animal sacrifice was even introduced in the bible, and - as I've said many times before - animal sacrifice was not God's idea, it has pagan origins.

 

[Woodznutz]

You can run, buttercup, but you can't hide from what the Bible actually says about these things.

 

[kathydunn]

What scriptural evidence do you have to support vegan/vegetarianism as God's perfect will for his people at this time? I have never perceived such a directive in all my years as a Christain and bible student.

As I've read other responses of Buttercup's, she has probably already said these things to you. The diet prescribed to humans and animals before the fall was plant-based. Everything after the fall is God responding to sinful, hard hearted, humans, as he says in Genesis 8, the intent of their hearts is only evil continuously, and we see this pattern repeated over and over. We know that God is just and wants us to be just as well, 2 Chronicles 7 “…if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.” Micah 6:8: "He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God." Why isn't our land being healed? Why as history progresses does the shape of the world seem to get worse rather than better? God is love. What is love? Is love predatory? Jesus says in Ephesians 5:2 to emulate him. Was Jesus predatory? God says to "put on love above all in everything" in Colossians. In Habakkuk 2:17 it says "your destruction of animals will terrify you." Isaiah and others tell us that God never wanted sacrifices, Psalm 40:6-8, Isaiah 1:11-31, Jeremiah 7:21-23, Hebrews 10:1-18. The 10 Commandments, thou shalt not kill, does not say humans only, it infers that killing at all is prohibited, and anyone who knows that God is love, and what the attributes of love are, that killing of any kind would not be in alignment with what it means to love. Who is our neighbor? ALL other living beings are our neighbor. Mercy is a central theme in scripture, those who have power over another are to exercise it with mercy and love, just as God who has power over us is merciful.

The Bible and Veganism: 14 Answers to 14 Objections - Shepherding All Gods Creatures

LINK TO FULL PDF TEXT: The Bible and Veganism: 14 Answers to 14 Objections CONTENTS 1. Introduction 2. Genesis 1:26: humans were given ‘dominion’ over animals 3. Genesis 4:3-5: Abel […]

www.shepherdingcreation.com

https://www.esv.org/Psalm+50:8;Hosea+6:6;Psalm+51:16;Psalm+40:6–8;Isaiah+1:11–31;Jeremiah+7:21–23;Hebrews+10:4–10/​

 

[Woodznutz]

AGAIN, you're adding to the text. You're looking at things through your modern-day carnist lens.

Like I said the last couple times we had this discussion: Nowhere in that passage does it mention killing, or that Abel offered a dead lamb to God.

Using common sense, do you really think that a God of love would be pleased by the "gift" of a murdered lamb?

Keep in mind, this was long before flesh eating was even supposedly permitted.

So to infer that Abel presented a killed animal would suggest Abel did something contrary to what God instructed. Obviously God wouldn't be pleased by that.

When discussing that passage, first century Jewish historian Josephus wrote: “But Abel brought milk” In the phrase ‘the firstborn of the fat of his flock’ the word translated ‘fat’ in Hebrew is ֵcheleb, which is identical to the Hebrew word for ‘milk’ ָ(chalab), but with different vowels. Since vowels were not added to the Hebrew alphabet until hundreds of years after Josephus, it is likely that the original word describing Abel’s gift was milk rather than fat.

If so, then Abel presented to God a firstborn baby lamb nursing milk from the baby’s mother. Which makes much more sense for a number of reasons. Especially since that was long before animal sacrifice was even introduced in the bible, and - as I've said many times before - animal sacrifice was not God's idea, it has pagan origins.

God himself killed the first lamb as a substitutional sacrifice to cover the sin of Adam and Eve. As in all such killings the sacrifice represents the future death of Christ. If God didn't insist on substitutionary animal sacrifices he would have been obliged to kill every human as the penalty of their sins.

 

[buttercup]

You can run, buttercup, but you can't hide from what the Bible actually says about these things.

I just corrected your ASSUMPTION that Abel offered a dead lamb, based on your pro-killing, pro-flesh eating modern-day carnist lens you see everything through.

So the only one running here is YOU, running from the tons and tons and tons and tons and tons of commands from God to be merciful. You are choosing to ignore the command to be merciful, while looking for anything to justify continuing to look at animals as mere food items or objects, as opposed to precious beings to God, which they are.

 

[Woodznutz]

As I've read other responses of Buttercup's, she has probably already said these things to you. The diet prescribed to humans and animals before the fall was plant-based. Everything after the fall is God responding to sinful, hard hearted, humans, as he says in Genesis 8, the intent of their hearts is only evil continuously, and we see this pattern repeated over and over. We know that God is just and wants us to be just as well, 2 Chronicles 7 “…if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.” Micah 6:8: "He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God." Why isn't our land being healed? Why as history progresses does the shape of the world seem to get worse rather than better? God is love. What is love? Is love predatory? Jesus says in Ephesians 5:2 to emulate him. Was Jesus predatory? God says to "put on love above all in everything" in Colossians. In Habakkuk 2:17 it says "your destruction of animals will terrify you." Isaiah and others tell us that God never wanted sacrifices, Psalm 40:6-8, Isaiah 1:11-31, Jeremiah 7:21-23, Hebrews 10:1-18. The 10 Commandments, thou shalt not kill, does not say humans only, it infers that killing at all is prohibited, and anyone who knows that God is love, and what the attributes of love are, that killing of any kind would not be in alignment with what it means to love. Who is our neighbor? ALL other living beings are our neighbor. Mercy is a central theme in scripture, those who have power over another are to exercise it with mercy and love, just as God who has power over us is merciful.

The Bible and Veganism: 14 Answers to 14 Objections - Shepherding All Gods Creatures

LINK TO FULL PDF TEXT: The Bible and Veganism: 14 Answers to 14 Objections CONTENTS 1. Introduction 2. Genesis 1:26: humans were given ‘dominion’ over animals 3. Genesis 4:3-5: Abel […]

www.shepherdingcreation.com

https://www.esv.org/Psalm+50:8;Hosea+6:6;Psalm+51:16;Psalm+40:6–8;Isaiah+1:11–31;Jeremiah+7:21–23;Hebrews+10:4–10/​

So why did God bless Israel with abundant flocks and herds, and required blood sacrifices from those animals?

 

[buttercup]

God himself killed the first lamb as a substitutional sacrifice to cover the sin of Adam and Eve. As in all such killings the sacrifice represents the future death of Christ. If God didn't insist on substitutionary animal sacrifices he would have been obliged to kill every human as the penalty of their sins.

AGAIN, you are adding to the text! It's really getting old having this same discussion with you over and over and over. The last few times we had this discussion, I told you THEN that you are adding to the text.

NOWHERE IN THAT PASSAGE DOES IT SAY THAT GOD KILLED AN ANIMAL. YOU ARE ADDING TO THE TEXT, due to your pro-violence, pro-flesh eating modern day carnist lens that you see everything through.

 

[Woodznutz]

I just corrected your ASSUMPTION that Abel offered a dead lamb, based on your pro-killing, pro-flesh eating modern-day carnist lens you see everything through.

So the only one running here is YOU, running from the tons and tons and tons and tons and tons of commands from God to be merciful. You are choosing to ignore the command to be merciful, while looking for anything to justify continuing to look at animals as mere food items or objects, as opposed to precious beings to God, which they are.

As noted above God blessed Abel and later Israel with abundant flocks and herds, requiring that many be offered as atonement for sin.

 

[buttercup]

So why did God bless Israel with abundant flocks and herds, and required blood sacrifices from those animals?

Animal sacrifice was not God's idea. It was a practice that was already taken place in many parts of the world, and it has pagan origins. There is evidence that it originated in Egypt. We've been through this many, many times before.

I'm starting to wonder if you have a bad memory.... or if you just enjoy going through the same arguments over and over and over?

 

[Woodznutz]

AGAIN, you are adding to the text! It's really getting old having this same discussion with you over and over and over. The last few times we had this discussion, I told you THEN that you are adding to the text.

NOWHERE IN THAT PASSAGE DOES IT SAY THAT GOD KILLED AN ANIMAL. YOU ARE ADDING TO THE TEXT, due to your pro-violence, pro-flesh eating modern day carnist lens that you see everything through.

Who do you think killed the animal whose skin replaced the fig leaves that Adam and Eve made to cover themselves? If not God himself then an appointed angel did it.

 

[buttercup]

Who do you think killed the animal whose skin replaced the fig leaves that Adam and Eve made to cover themselves? If not God himself then an appointed angel did it.

How did God create the world, according to Genesis 1?

You are treating the Creator of the universe as if He was just a regular schmuck, and a modern-day schmuck at that, who looks at everything through a pro-violence, pro-flesh eating carnist lens. Sorry, but a perfect holy God of love does not enjoy violence, the Bible says the exact opposite!

 

[Woodznutz]

Animal sacrifice was not God's idea. It was a practice that was already taken place in many parts of the world, and it has pagan origins. There is evidence that it originated in Egypt. We've been through this many, many times before.

I'm starting to wonder if you have a bad memory.... or if you just enjoy going through the same arguments over and over and over?

Bible truth doesn't change, so why should my arguments?

 

[Woodznutz]

How did God create the world, according to Genesis 1?

Do you not understand 'substitutionary' death. That's what animal sacrifices were. God didn't just poof some 'skin' into existence. Sheez!