Zone1 Is Your Body a Temple or a Graveyard?

[buttercup]

That's quibbling at the edges. In fact that Bible says those with "weak faith" may just eat vegetables, and the rest of us should let you do so. And we do. But then you're not to guilt us about our choices.

That's a flatly wrong interpretation. The context of that passage had to do with eating food that may have been offered to idols.

And when you actually think about it, it is absurd to think it is talking about vegetarianism, since vegetarianism was GOD's idea in the first place, and since there are examples in the bible that totally contradict that (standard christian) misinterpretation.

For example, Daniel, who after eating nothing but vegetables and water for a couple weeks was said to be stronger, healthier, and wiser than the rest.... and Daniel is in the all-time Hall of Fame for exceptionally strong faith!


Here's a talk on that:

 

[SweetSue92]

That's a flatly wrong interpretation. The context of that passage had to do with eating food that may have been offered to idols.

And when you actually think about it, it is absurd to think it is talking about vegetarianism, since vegetarianism was GOD's idea in the first place, and since there are examples in the bible that totally contradict that (standard christian) misinterpretation.

For example, Daniel, who after eating nothing but vegetables and water for a couple weeks was said to be stronger, healthier, and wiser than the rest.... and Daniel is in the all-time Hall of Fame for exceptionally strong faith!


Here's a talk on that:

Again: you are free to eat according to your conscience. And so am I.

 

[kathydunn]

We are not in the Garden anymore. Yes, in the Garden, before sin, there would be no eating of flesh. But we DID fall. The one place I erred was being too flippant in my "no mercy" comment. We shouldn't be cruel to animals for no reason. But we most certainly can use them for food.

I'm not going to argue about that; it's clear, and trying to shoehorn veganism/vegetarianism into the Gospel is a dead-ender. You are free to follow your conscience and not eat meat, of course. You are not free to tell ME that eating meat is sinful.

The. End.

But we were supposed to have never left the garden in the first place!! What do you think the garden was? It was this earth in it's perfect form before any thing at all began to destroy it. When everything God created were living in harmony, in perfect Shalom. It is God's goal to restore that paradise, it always has been, so eating the flesh of his beloved sentient creatures was never his plan from the beginning, and God does not change, this is still not his plan, never will be, and one day, he will restore the earth to that Garden of Eden oasis again - don't you see? What we experience was never intended to be experienced, scripture says an enemy has done this - Satan who came to kill, steal and destroy (Matthew 13:28)!

If you are going to be bent on eating the flesh of God's beloved creatures, then you should know what it is you are partaking of and do your homework. You should have to kill the animals yourself to feed yourself instead of paying someone else to do it. You should visit a slaughterhouse, you should watch the footage of those undercover investigators who have filmed the horrors as they are killed. You should watch what happens to chicks who are born to be laying hens, watch what laying hens go through, as well as those who go on to be broiler birds. You should take a look inside a CAFO (confined animal feeding operation) and see how they are all treated. You should know what really happens in the milk and dairy industry to baby cows, to mamas who are artificially impregnated continually so that humans can drink the milk that was designed for their babies to make them grow big and strong (and is the cause of lactose intolerance in humans among many other issues because we are eating of something that was not intended for us to consume - lactose | Health Topics | NutritionFacts.org).

I am old enough to remember when animals on farms were raised outdoors and animal husbandry practices were standard. I am not condoing eating animal flesh, yet those times were far better for the animals than today and far better to consume though consuming them has never been God's design. Today, the whole farming system - even to plants as they pour tons of chemicals on everything and destroy the soil, the water, the air, the polinators; as they experiment on animals and create GMOs out of every geno and seed they can - is a complete abomination to God, it is horrific. And again, if you don't know what you really are putting in your body, how it was raised, where it comes from, you should learn. Incidentally, I wonder, would humans feed the milk they produce to a different species? It isn't designed for any other species other than their own human babies, God has designed each species to produce what is best for their own offspring.

If you are going to eat animal flesh, do the research as to what eating that flesh is really doing to the human body. Get the facts (Dr. Michael Greger is the go to, I gave you the link earlier). Why do we have so many pharmaceuticals? There is a drug for every ailment known to man! Why do we have so many ailments? Could it be because we do not follow the designs God intended us to follow? I can tell you personally, I have been vegan for 15 years and I have never been healthier! I am a senior and pharmaceutical free; I rarely take a pain killer, I cannot remember the last time I took one either! I cannot remember how long ago it was that I got sick it has been that long. Do you know how much good food there eating vegan?! I tell you, I have never eaten so well, there is such a variety, and I can make every single favorite recipe of foods that contained animal products and that I loved into vegan recipes that are even better! If we follow God's designs - after all, he created all things to work in harmony together and to flourish - if we follow his designs, he will restore our world (2 Chronicles 7:14; Micah 6:8).

What is Factory Farming? | Farm Sanctuary

Factory farms dominate U.S. food production & are harmful to the environment, social justice, animal welfare, & human health.

www.farmsanctuary.org

 

[buttercup]

But we were supposed to have never left the garden in the first place!! What do you think the garden was? It was this earth in it's perfect form before any thing at all began to destroy it. When everything God created were living in harmony, in perfect Shalom. It is God's goal to restore that paradise, it always has been, so eating the flesh of his beloved sentient creatures was never his plan from the beginning, and God does not change, this is still not his plan, never will be, and one day, he will restore the earth to that Garden of Eden oasis again - don't you see? What we experience was never intended to be experienced, scripture says an enemy has done this - Satan who came to kill, steal and destroy (Matthew 13:28)!

If you are going to be bent on eating the flesh of God's beloved creatures, then you should know what it is you are partaking of and do your homework. You should visit a slaughterhouse, you should watch the footage of those undercover investigators who have filmed the horrors as they are killed. You should watch what happens to chicks who are born to be laying hens as well as those who go on to be broiler birds. You should take a look inside a CAFO (confined animal feeding operation) and see how they are all treated. You should know what really happens in the milk and dairy industry to baby cows, to mamas who are artificially impregnated continually so that humans can drink the milk that was designed for their babies to make them grow big and strong (and is the cause of lactose intolerance in humans among many other issues because we are eating of something that was not intended for us to consume - lactose | Health Topics | NutritionFacts.org). I am old enough to remember when animals on farms were raised outdoors and animal husbandry practices were standard. I am not condoing eating animal flesh, yet those times were far better for the animals than today and far better to consume though consuming them has never been God's design. Today, the whole farming system - even to plants as they pour tons of chemicals on everything and destroy the soil, the water, the air, the polinators; as they experiement on animals and create GMOs out of every geno and seed they can - is a complete abomination to God, it is horrific. And again, if you don't know what you really are putting in your body, how it was raised, where it comes from, you should learn. Incidentally, I wonder, would humans feed the milk they produce to a different species? It isn't designed for any other species other than their own human babies, God has designed each species to produce what is best for their own offspring.

If you are going to eat animal flesh, do the research as to what eating that flesh is really doing to the human body. Get the facts (Dr. Michael Greger is the go to, I gave you the link earlier). Why do we have so many pharmaceuticals? There is a drug for every ailment known to man! Why do we have so many ailments? Could it be because we do not follow the designs God intended us to follow? I can tell you personally, I have been vegan for 15 years and I have never been healthier! I am a senior and pharmaceutical free; I rarely take a pain killer, I cannot remember the last time I took one either! I cannot remember how long ago it was that I got sick it has been that long. Do you know how much good food there eating vegan?! I tell you, I have never eaten so well, there is such a variety, and I can make every single favorite recipe of foods that contained animal products and that I loved into vegan recipes that are even better! If we follow God's designs - after all, he created all things to work in harmony together and to flourish - if we follow his designs, he will restore our world (2 Chronicles 7:14; Micah 6:8).

What is Factory Farming? | Farm Sanctuary

Factory farms dominate U.S. food production & are harmful to the environment, social justice, animal welfare, & human health.

www.farmsanctuary.org

Same here, btw! I've been vegan for 8 years now and I pretty much NEVER get sick anymore. And every time I've had my bloodwork done in the last several years, it always comes back perfect, or nearly perfect.

And I agree with what you said about more variety. Most people eat the same 3 or 4 dead animals over and over, and that's that. Contrary to what many assume, you actually end up discovering so many new different things when you go plantbased, things you never tried before, and in addition to that, of course pretty much everything can be veganized these days.

There are so many common misconceptions, it's crazy. But I do get it! I once had all those same misconceptions that others do.

 

[kathydunn]

When God told Adam that he would surely die if he disobeyed and sinned, who would kill him, or did God create him with a serious physical condition that would trigger his death upon sinning? Or would God dispatch an angel to strike him down? If Adam indeed lived over 900 years it seems to me that he was pretty healthy.

When we became separated from God, from he whom gives us LIFE, we die, spiritually and physically. Why are we separated from God? Because we chose not to adhere to his perfect design, and we believed Satan's lie that we could be like God, that somehow God was withholding something from us that we did not know and that we could know if we disobeyed him. The thing is, we are already like God in that we are made in his image! We had dominion over the animals and the earth, that was our realm of responsibility. The dominion he gave us is to embody him as we care for and protect that which he gave us charge over. Like God has dominion over us - how does he treat us? Like God has dominion over us we are to have dominon over the earth and animals. But we don't do it his way do we? Who was the destroyer? What does it say about the destroyer? That serpent of old who was the serpent telling the first humans God was lying to them? He was a liar from the beginning scripture says, and he coerced us into handing over the keys to the kingdom that we had dominion over to him! Now, humans act more like Satan, who as the bible describes Satan, kills, steals and destroys! It is just what humans do!!

So imagine a pristine unpolluted world (which was the garden of eden). Sin has just entered. The first humans don't yet have all the means to destroy and pollute the world. Industrialization doesn't happen until the 1800's AD. Man did not create GMOs or destroy all the nutrients in the soil that grow our food, destroy all the polinators, pollute the water and the air, create plastic out of the decay of dead things and decimate the planet with it (when there should not have been death in the world in the first place which is where fossil fuels come from, which is also how we fuel our automobiles and other objects of the industrialized world that burn fossil remains which pollute the air and water; we chop down all the trees that God created to clean the air! The ground itself was designed to clean the water but we pollute the soil! On and on it goes, right?). So imagine this pristine world. Of course Adam would have lived longer as did humans in that day, or at least it is one likely factor. God also said he was shortening our lifespans. Why would he do that? One hypothesis could be that God is merciful. Imagine living 900 years in todays polluted diseased world! It would be painful and unmerciful.

 

[buttercup]

scripture says an enemy has done this - Satan who came to kill, steal and destroy (Matthew 13:28)!

I'm glad you brought this up a few times, excellent point. I've heard a lot of secular vegans ask this question....if GOD is for needless bloodshed and killing, then what about the devil?

I was going to share a video (a very scary video, with a horror movie theme to it) I did on that topic.... but it won't show up like normal because it has an age restriction on it. Maybe I'll try to download it and upload it manually.

 

[kathydunn]

Same here, btw! I've been vegan for 8 years now and I pretty much NEVER get sick anymore. And every time I've had my bloodwork done in the last several years, it always comes back perfect, or nearly perfect.

And I agree with what you said about more variety. Most people eat the same 3 or 4 dead animals over and over, and that's that. Contrary to what many assume, you actually end up discovering so many new different things when you go plantbased, things you never tried before, and in addition to that, of course pretty much everything can be veganized these days.

There are so many common misconceptions, it's crazy. But I do get it! I once had all those same misconceptions that others do.

Praise God you have been vegan for 8 years!! That is amazing!! Thank you for all your kind words. I get it too. I had all the same misconceptions. I think in being willing to embrace veganism God was able to open my eyes to more truths, things in his word that we cannot see until we follow the convictions he places on us. I think in not eating flesh foods I am not consuming all that violence and death - so I am healthier but he is also able to show me more and lead me into all truth. He is steering us into all truth, and leading us back to his perfect kingdom. It means swimming upstream of the culture but it is worth it, and the more willing I am to swim upstream of the culture, to examine everything as the bible teaches, the more he seems to show me!

 

[SweetSue92]

But we were supposed to have never left the garden in the first place!! What do you think the garden was? It was this earth in it's perfect form before any thing at all began to destroy it. When everything God created were living in harmony, in perfect Shalom. It is God's goal to restore that paradise, it always has been, so eating the flesh of his beloved sentient creatures was never his plan from the beginning, and God does not change, this is still not his plan, never will be, and one day, he will restore the earth to that Garden of Eden oasis again - don't you see? What we experience was never intended to be experienced, scripture says an enemy has done this - Satan who came to kill, steal and destroy (Matthew 13:28)!

If you are going to be bent on eating the flesh of God's beloved creatures, then you should know what it is you are partaking of and do your homework. You should have to kill the animals yourself to feed yourself instead of paying someone else to do it. You should visit a slaughterhouse, you should watch the footage of those undercover investigators who have filmed the horrors as they are killed. You should watch what happens to chicks who are born to be laying hens, watch what laying hens go through, as well as those who go on to be broiler birds. You should take a look inside a CAFO (confined animal feeding operation) and see how they are all treated. You should know what really happens in the milk and dairy industry to baby cows, to mamas who are artificially impregnated continually so that humans can drink the milk that was designed for their babies to make them grow big and strong (and is the cause of lactose intolerance in humans among many other issues because we are eating of something that was not intended for us to consume - lactose | Health Topics | NutritionFacts.org).

I am old enough to remember when animals on farms were raised outdoors and animal husbandry practices were standard. I am not condoing eating animal flesh, yet those times were far better for the animals than today and far better to consume though consuming them has never been God's design. Today, the whole farming system - even to plants as they pour tons of chemicals on everything and destroy the soil, the water, the air, the polinators; as they experiment on animals and create GMOs out of every geno and seed they can - is a complete abomination to God, it is horrific. And again, if you don't know what you really are putting in your body, how it was raised, where it comes from, you should learn. Incidentally, I wonder, would humans feed the milk they produce to a different species? It isn't designed for any other species other than their own human babies, God has designed each species to produce what is best for their own offspring.

If you are going to eat animal flesh, do the research as to what eating that flesh is really doing to the human body. Get the facts (Dr. Michael Greger is the go to, I gave you the link earlier). Why do we have so many pharmaceuticals? There is a drug for every ailment known to man! Why do we have so many ailments? Could it be because we do not follow the designs God intended us to follow? I can tell you personally, I have been vegan for 15 years and I have never been healthier! I am a senior and pharmaceutical free; I rarely take a pain killer, I cannot remember the last time I took one either! I cannot remember how long ago it was that I got sick it has been that long. Do you know how much good food there eating vegan?! I tell you, I have never eaten so well, there is such a variety, and I can make every single favorite recipe of foods that contained animal products and that I loved into vegan recipes that are even better! If we follow God's designs - after all, he created all things to work in harmony together and to flourish - if we follow his designs, he will restore our world (2 Chronicles 7:14; Micah 6:8).

What is Factory Farming? | Farm Sanctuary

Factory farms dominate U.S. food production & are harmful to the environment, social justice, animal welfare, & human health.

www.farmsanctuary.org

You realize that God is omniscient, right?

He KNEW we would fall. There's no "supposed to".--He knew. And it was worth it. If it wasn't, it wouldn't have happened.

 

[kathydunn]

Again, you are free to follow your conscience and be vegan or vegetarian. I won't tell you you're wrong. This is Biblical.

You ARE wrong if you're telling any other Christian we cannot eat meat. Romans 14; 1 Tim 4

I am not telling other Christians anything, I am sharing what scripture is teaching us, and hoping that other brothers and sisters will open their eyes and hearts and see beyond what their particular denomination or what the norm in our churches has been teaching for decades. I am encouraging other Christians to open their minds and hearts to God's voice in the matter! God is watching everything we do, he sees the carnage behind the animal flesh and dairy industry, does he want his people to participate in such an unjust system?? Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, right? So then why are we not treating our bodies like it! How can the Holy Spirit lead and guide us into all truth if we keep eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil? We should be setting ourselves apart - being holy like Jesus is holy (holy means set apart)! Do you agree that God wants us to be righteous (righteous means rightly related)? God wants to restore us right? He wants us to yeild to him, to understand what living in the flesh is vs living in the Spirit, right? How can we live in the Spirit if we keep living in the flesh?

Look, I am just encouraging you to test everything you think you might know, hang on to God's hand, and ask Him to show you and to reveal all truth to you about this issue, and then be open to where He will lead you. In the end we will all stand before God and give an accounting for how we lived our lives - did we truly live for him? Did we follow his instructions when he said to live in the world but be not of it? Did we truly explore scripture and ask of God what that even means in a world that commodifies all he has made; when one takes an honest look around, the whole world is pretty messed up, there is destruction everywere, what God has created is being destroyed (his animals, forests, water, air, the harmony and interconnectedness in the web of life - all being destroyed - why? Humans are getting more and more violent. Why? What is the human role in this? Did he not give us dominion, are we not supposed to be good managers over what he put us in charge of, over all the earth and its inhabitants? Could it be that we are failing somehow at caring properly for all he put us in charge of? Will you be able to answer these questions if He asks you?).


I'm going to leave you with two other resources and encourage you to explore them and ask God to show you anything He might want to show you. And I won't keep arguing this point. I don't want to offend you or anyone by over arguing a point. I am praying that you will have eyes that see, ears that hear, and a teachable reachable heart, as I pray that for myself and all of us as well! I always want to be seeking God and not be pious to think that I already know what the truth is about everything. I just encourage you to do the same. Your body is the temple of God. Think about it. Choose LIFE - choose LOVE!!

What 1 Timothy 4 is Really All About - Shepherding All Gods Creatures

Introduction to 1 Timothy 4:1-8 This article was certainly not an academic exercise for me but was the fruit of various painful experiences with both Christians and Churches. 1 Timothy […]

www.shepherdingcreation.com

 

[kathydunn]

You realize that God is omniscient, right?

He KNEW we would fall. There's no "supposed to".--He knew. And it was worth it. If it wasn't, it wouldn't have happened.

Yes, I do! "Supposed to" and omnicience are not polar opposites unable to exist together. We know that there is a perfect will of God for us, right? We know that we are not living out that perfect will now, right? Why is that? Because God wills us not to? That makes no sense and also is not reconcilable with other parts of scripture where God tells us he desires us to follow him and do his perfect will! Is God scitzophrenic? Did God cause us to disobey him in order to fall because God knew we were going to fall? Is that how it works? That doesn't make any sense with free will! How is free will free will if there isn't an element of not knowing which way the subject of that free will might choose? Why can there not be two possible options, God knowing perfectly before hand what will happen if either of them are chosen? Did he give us free will or did he not? Now there is a limit to this free will for sure! Within the realm that he gave his created beings, including angels, their certain amount of free will.

Giving us dominion over the earth and animals we had free will to choose to follow his good instructions or not to. God knew what would happen and knows perfectly what will happen, again, in either direction. He knew for example that if we sinned against him, we would subject everything underneath us to separation from him, because the consequences of sin is separation from him as well as death (and what does this "death" entail? We can look around at the state of the world and see - who's character do humans resemble, that of God's or of Satan's?). Did God ever change his mind about something in scripture? There are many examples, but one is it seems he did with Ninevah. God was going to allow the city to be destroyed but did not want to because there were so many people and animals living there. But the people repented, and when they did, the city was not destroyed. So it also seems we can influence God by what we ourselves choose to do. It seems that somehow, the consequences of sin are built into the sin. God gives us a choice, knowing what will happen in either direction - we can choose to do his perfect will and follow his good instructions; or we can follow our own path and that of our flesh which has been subjected to Satan's influence (he is the prince of this world, we are subject to the powers and principalities of his work in this world).

 

[kathydunn]

Great damage and COMPROMISE has been done to the Church by relaxing the requirements when they went to make GENTILE converts

It was the meat eating GENTILES who were/are weak in the faith. They are not following Jesus and the apostles in this. The same can be said about "Christians" who abandon GOD'S SABBATH for gentile Sunday

Yes, Paul was addressing a GENTILE audience. They were immersed in all kinds of wickedness. So Paul is addressing them as them as the "weaker in faith", this makes sense. I think you are right, the church relaxed their requirements when making gentile converts, they shouldn't have.

 

[kathydunn]

I don't think the clear meaning of scripture is debatable.

Clear meaning!? Wow, are we reading from the same book? Scripture often contradicts itself and seems to conflict! It is not clear at all in many areas and takes discernment and hearing the voice of God. God said the sheep hear my voice. I'm learning a ton, now that I questioned everything I thought I knew and asked God to guide me into all truth. I also know I have SO much more to learn.

 

[surada]

Hmmmm.... "...it is clear that the disciples expected that Jesus would eat of the Pasover lamb.."?? I see nothing in any of the new testament that would suggest they did. And how do you explain John's account who was an eye witness (Matthew, Mark, and Luke's authors were not 1st century eye witnesses; most scholars agree that the 4th gospel was written by John, the son of Zebedee who was one of the twelve disciples)? In John 20:28-31 it is written:
"Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” 29 A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. 30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. 31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath."

Jesus died on the day of Preparation. The actual Passover meal, the ceremonial eating of the meal, or the "seder," would begin later, just before sundown. This agrees with Exodus. So how would Jesus have been able to partake of any Passover meal and supposedly eat lamb? According to the Gospel of Mark, Jesus died by the 9th hour of the day or around 3 p.m.. Jesus WAS the Passover lamb!!! The sacrifice to END all other sacrifices!!

There is a lot of controversy around "the last supper" in scholarly circles, any google search will tell you this. I believe John's gospel is likely the most accurate since he was one of the 12 apostles.

There is also a lot of evidence that Jesus, his disciples, and the early church they started in the 1st century were vegetarian (equivalent to veganism today).

FNL # 90 - Evidence for Veganism in the Early Church

Were there any vegans in the early church? In this week's live talk we explore what sources say about these questions.

creationcarechurch.org

Don't you read the thread?

Paschal lamb, in Judaism, the lamb sacrificed at the first Passover, on the eve of the Exodus from Egypt, the most momentous event in Jewish history.

According to the story of the Passover (Exodus, chapter 12), the Jews marked their doorposts with the blood of the lamb, and this sign spared them from destruction.

In early Jewish history an unblemished year-old lamb sacrificed in the Temple of Jerusalem on the 14th of Nisan to commemorate the eve of the Exodus was later eaten by the family.

For those who had been impeded from visiting the Temple at the prescribed time, a second Passover festival was permitted a month later. In modern times Jews use a roasted shank bone at the seder (q.v.) meal as symbolic of the Paschal lamb. St. Paul, drawing a parallel with the sacrifice made by Jesus, referred to Christ as the Paschal lamb (I Corinthians 5:7); hence, the Christian view of Christ as the spotless Lamb of God who by his death freed mankind from the bonds of sin.

 

[surada]

Great damage and COMPROMISE has been done to the Church by relaxing the requirements when they went to make GENTILE converts

It was the meat eating GENTILES who were/are weak in the faith. They are not following Jesus and the apostles in this. The same can be said about "Christians" who abandon GOD'S SABBATH for gentile Sunday

Paschal lamb, in Judaism, the lamb sacrificed at the first Passover, on the eve of the Exodus from Egypt, the most momentous event in Jewish history.

According to the story of the Passover (Exodus, chapter 12), the Jews marked their doorposts with the blood of the lamb, and this sign spared them from destruction.

In early Jewish history an unblemished year-old lamb sacrificed in the Temple of Jerusalem on the 14th of Nisan to commemorate the eve of the Exodus was later eaten by the family.

For those who had been impeded from visiting the Temple at the prescribed time, a second Passover festival was permitted a month later. In modern times Jews use a roasted shank bone at the seder (q.v.) meal as symbolic of the Paschal lamb. St. Paul, drawing a parallel with the sacrifice made by Jesus, referred to Christ as the Paschal lamb (I Corinthians 5:7); hence, the Christian view of Christ as the spotless Lamb of God who by his death freed mankind from the bonds of sin.

 

[SweetSue92]

Yes, I do! "Supposed to" and omnicience are not polar opposites unable to exist together. We know that there is a perfect will of God for us, right? We know that we are not living out that perfect will now, right? Why is that? Because God wills us not to? That makes no sense and also is not reconcilable with other parts of scripture where God tells us he desires us to follow him and do his perfect will! Is God scitzophrenic? Did God cause us to disobey him in order to fall because God knew we were going to fall? Is that how it works? That doesn't make any sense with free will! How is free will free will if there isn't an element of not knowing which way the subject of that free will might choose? Why can there not be two possible options, God knowing perfectly before hand what will happen if either of them are chosen? Did he give us free will or did he not? Now there is a limit to this free will for sure! Within the realm that he gave his created beings, including angels, their certain amount of free will.

Giving us dominion over the earth and animals we had free will to choose to follow his good instructions or not to. God knew what would happen and knows perfectly what will happen, again, in either direction. He knew for example that if we sinned against him, we would subject everything underneath us to separation from him, because the consequences of sin is separation from him as well as death (and what does this "death" entail? We can look around at the state of the world and see - who's character do humans resemble, that of God's or of Satan's?). Did God ever change his mind about something in scripture? There are many examples, but one is it seems he did with Ninevah. God was going to allow the city to be destroyed but did not want to because there were so many people and animals living there. But the people repented, and when they did, the city was not destroyed. So it also seems we can influence God by what we ourselves choose to do. It seems that somehow, the consequences of sin are built into the sin. God gives us a choice, knowing what will happen in either direction - we can choose to do his perfect will and follow his good instructions; or we can follow our own path and that of our flesh which has been subjected to Satan's influence (he is the prince of this world, we are subject to the powers and principalities of his work in this world).

What saves us?

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Praise God you have been vegan for 8 years!! That is amazing!! Thank you for all your kind words. I get it too. I had all the same misconceptions. I think in being willing to embrace veganism God was able to open my eyes to more truths, things in his word that we cannot see until we follow the convictions he places on us. I think in not eating flesh foods I am not consuming all that violence and death - so I am healthier but he is also able to show me more and lead me into all truth. He is steering us into all truth, and leading us back to his perfect kingdom. It means swimming upstream of the culture but it is worth it, and the more willing I am to swim upstream of the culture, to examine everything as the bible teaches, the more he seems to show me!

Exactly! This is in the spirit of what He meant when He said you have to be willing to lose (give up) your own life to gain eternal life in His Kingdom.

Sometimes you have to be willing to give up your own desires. And those things you might think you can't live without.

If you can do that, He will give you new understanding. When people stop obeying what they KNOW to be true, that's when your spiritual growth stagnates

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Sadly, more stuff you made up.

You can be vegan if you choose.

It's wholly unnecessary for Christians.

I posted a video of a Catholic man who repented of taking lives of the innocent. What exactly in that post did I "make up" in your mind?

Do you think I made the video? Do you think I talked him into making the video? Once again you're being irrational and not thinking before responding

 

[surada]

I posted a video of a Catholic man who repented of taking lives of the innocent. What exactly in that post did I "make up" in your mind?

Do you think I made the video? Do you think I talked him into making the video? Once again you're being irrational and not thinking before responding

What does that prove exactly? Abraham served meat to the angels.

 

[surada]

Again: you are free to eat according to your conscience. And so am I.

G‑d said, “Behold, I have given you every seed-bearing herb which is upon the surface of the entire earth, and every tree that has seed-bearing fruit; it will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and to all the fowl of the heavens, and to everything that moves upon the earth, in which there is a living spirit, every green herb to eat,” and it was so. (Genesis 1:29–30)

 

[surada]

God's sacrifice in the Garden, at the very least then reveals the legitimacy of animal sacrifice for human benefit. Abel, a keeper of sheep, understood how to make an acceptable sacrifice using animals (Gen 4:3-4). Why was Abel a keeper of sheep? For what purpose? Perhaps to eat? Moreover, the description of Abel's sacrifice is instructive. Notice the phrase, "and of their fat portions" (Gen 4:4). This is similar to the peace offerings offered later where the "fat" was burned and the meat was eaten (Lev 3:9).

Cain offered a grain offering. Later in the Old Testament we learn that grain offerings were accompanied by peace offerings (Lev. 3; 6:14-23). So, in Genesis 4 we may be observing the first coupling of peace and grain offerings. If so, then part of the offering may have been eaten by man.