Zone1 Is Your Body a Temple or a Graveyard?

[kathydunn]

This pretty much set the stage for things until Christ returns.
Genesis 9

1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

God gave animals the green plants or herb, he gave humans every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. So likely, it was God giving over "everything that moves" to the animals. Regardless, God is responding to sin and humans hardness of heart, he had just destroyed the earth due to all this sin and was starting over! In the beginning before sin entered the world he prescribed vegetation to all of us, humans and non humans, this was to be their food, this is his perfect will for us!! What does it mean to have dominion? Does it mean domination? What does it mean to be made in the image of God? Does it mean we look like him or have some attributes of God? Or does it mean we are supposed to embody God over that which he puts us in charge of? In the beginning this is what he did, he put us in charge over the rest of the creation that he made. This is a huge responsibility and role, to carry out God's good instructions, to see that the whole creation under us flourishes!

The following is from an article that I encourage you to read. Humans are full of cognitive dissonance or double mindedness. This article paints that picture quite clearly: A Beloved Swan Named Faye in a NY Pond, Killed and Eaten

"At the beginning of Creation ... before sin entered the world, God established what our relationship toward animals should be. Animals share the sixth day of creation with humans (Gen 1:24–31). In Genesis 2:18–19, Genesis 1:29, animals are not created as resources or food for Adam, but rather companions with Adam. There was no predation or killing of one another. So from the beginning, God’s intention for animals and humans was to coexist in harmony as companions with one another with the earth as their shared home. In Genesis 2:15, God placed man in the garden to have dominion over it, to care for or cultivate it and maintain or keep it. The words care/cultivate in the original language is עבד, transliteration `abad. It means to labour, work, do work; to work for another, serve another by labour. The words keep/maintain in the original language is שׁמר; transliteration shamar. It means to keep, have charge of; to keep guard, keep watch and ward, protect, save life. We get an unmistakable image of the dominion given to us as a responsibility to “serve” and “protect” the garden’s inhabitants and the garden itself. Being made in God’s Image is the embodiment of God in order to care for and watch over that which God created."

 

[buttercup]

Do you not understand 'substitutionary' death. That's what animal sacrifices were. God didn't just poof some 'skin' into existence. Sheez!

Oh, I see now that you don't think God is capable of doing anything in a way that is different than us fallen humans. According to you, God is not powerful enough to do anything in a non-human way. His ways are our ways.... but not only our ways...our post-fall, pro-violence, pro-flesh eating modern day carnist ways!

Sigh. The Almighty perfect holy God is just another regular schmuck who enjoys violence, killing, treating animals like mere objects as opposed to sentient beings that HE created and loves. Now I see why you think the way you do, if that's really what you think God is like.

 

[The Duke]

A Catholic repents of the many lives he stole

What early church writers said about this issue:

Clement wrote, "It is far better to be happy than to have your bodies act as graveyards for animals.

The Apostle Matthew partook of seeds, nuts and vegetables, without flesh".

Of the earliest Christian documents is, Clementine Homiles', a second-century work based on the teachings of St. Peter. Homily XII states, "The unnatural eating of flesh meats is as polluting as the heathen worship of devils, with its sacrifices and its impure feasts, through participation in it a man becomes a fellow eater with devils".

Many monasteries in ancient times to the present practiced vegetarianism.

Clement of Alexandria

Sacrifices were invented by men to be a pretext for eating flesh.

James

James, the brother of the Lord was holy from his mothers womb; and he drank no wine nor strong drink, nor did he eat flesh. Hegesippus, quoted in The Church History of Eusebius, book 2, chapter 23.

Regenstein

Says that nowhere in the New Testament is Jesus depicted as eating Flesh and "if the Last Supper was a Passover meal, there is, no mention of the Pass Over Lamb Dish".

Saint Augustine

Says: Jacobus, the brother of Jesus, lived of seeds and vegetables and did not accept meat or wine.

Saint Basil

The steam of meat meals darkens the spirit. One can hardly have virtue if one enjoys meat meals and feasts. In the earthly paradise, no one sacrificed animals, and no one ate meat.

St Francis of Assisi

All things of creation are children of the Father and thus brothers of man, God wants us to help animals, if they need help. Every creature in distress has the same right to be protected.

Saint Jerome

The eating of meat was unknown up to the big flood, but since the flood they have the strings and stinking juices of animal meat into our mouths, just as they threw in front of the grumbling sensual people in the desert. Jesus Christ, who appeared when the time had been fulfilled, has again joined the end with the beginning, so that it is no longer allowed for us to eat animal meat.

https://www.all-creatures.org/articles/early.html

 

[Woodznutz]

The diet prescribed to humans and animals before the fall was plant-based.

So, what was Abel doing with his flocks, keeping a petting zoo?

 

[Woodznutz]

Oh, I see now that you don't think God is capable of doing anything in a way that is different than us fallen humans. According to you, God is not powerful enough to do anything in a non-human way. His ways are our ways.... but not only our ways...our post-fall, pro-violence, pro-flesh eating modern day carnist ways!

Sigh. The Almighty perfect holy God is just another regular schmuck who enjoys violence, killing, treating animals like mere objects as opposed to sentient beings that HE created and loves. Now I see why you think the way you do, if that's really what you think God is like.

I think God was more concerned with not having to kill Adam and Eve. The dead lamb prefigured the atoning death of Christ.

 

[buttercup]

"At the beginning of Creation ... before sin entered the world, God established what our relationship toward animals should be. Animals share the sixth day of creation with humans (Gen 1:24–31). In Genesis 2:18–19, Genesis 1:29, animals are not created as resources or food for Adam, but rather companions with Adam. There was no predation or killing of one another. So from the beginning, God’s intention for animals and humans was to coexist in harmony as companions with one another with the earth as their shared home.

So far he has not shown that he cares one whit about God's original design, intent, purpose...let alone His ultimate plan.

He is not looking at the big picture AT ALL. Which is one of the many problems. He is looking at things from a very temporal, worldly and carnist perspective, as opposed to an eternal perspective, which is what we are specifically told to have.

 

[buttercup]

I think God was more concerned with not having to kill Adam and Eve. The dead lamb prefigured the atoning death of Christ.

Except that it doesn't say anything about killing or bringing a dead lamb. You assumed that, because you are looking at everything through a very specific lens. You seem to think God is just like you.

No, the Bible says that God hates the shedding of innocent blood and it even says God hates those who love violence!

The Lord tests the righteous,
But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.
(Psalms 11:5)

I've already talked about animal sacrifice many times before. So, instead of writing it all out again, I'm just going to copy-paste what I posted on another thread about it:

--------

Animal sacrifice is in NO way shape or form a justification for needlessly killing animals in this day and age. God never even wanted animal sacrifice in the first place, the practice was NOT God's idea, it was something that was already occurring at that time in many places in the world. There is evidence that it originated in Egypt.

But because this is a fallen world, often God will 'meet us where we're at.' Assuming those scriptures are legit, one theory on this is that God enacted laws on sacrifice to deal with it in 2 steps. (Some of the following is going to be copy / pasted from a paper a friend of mine wrote on this topic but I have permission to use)


1. Step one was to get people to stop sacrificing to false gods.

At the time when Moses freed the Israelites from their Egyptian bondage, the worship practice of sacrificing animals to idols and to Egyptian gods was widespread and deeply ingrained in the minds of the Israelites living in Egypt.

In the words of first century church leader Clement of Rome:

“When meantime Moses, that faithful and wise steward, perceived that the vice of sacrificing to idols had been deeply ingrained into the Egyptians, and that the root of this evil could not be extracted from them, he allowed them indeed to sacrifice, but permitted it to be done only to God, that by any means he might cut off one half of the deeply ingrained evil, leaving the other half to be corrected by another, and at a future time”.

In other words, worshiping God instead of idols and other gods was the first step toward true worship and the primary objective Moses was tasked with.


2. The second step was to worship God the way God desires to be worshiped instead of in the way humans conceived to worship idols and other gods. This second step was later brought about through Jesus when he offered a better offering to God and thereby completed the way to perfect worship of God.

As another author puts it: “Men were going to sacrifice animals, with or without the law of Moses, but God’s end goal was always to wean men off of such violence and bring them back to the original perfect state of love, compassion, and mercy.”

As I've stated to you numerous times, just because God allows bad things to happen in this fallen world does not mean it's what God wants us to embrace, God is always pointing us toward HIS perfect will, which is love, mercy, compassion, not violence.

Now IF the reason you brought up animal sacrifice was to try to claim God doesn't care about animals and likes killing and death, let's look at what GOD thinks about sacrifice, and what He REALLY wants:

Hosea 6:6

For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.


Psalm 40:6

Sacrifice and offering You did not desire;
My ears You have opened.
Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.


Psalm 51:16-17

For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart —
These, O God, You will not despise.


Proverbs 21:3

To do righteousness and justice
Is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.


Jeremiah 7:22-24

For I did not speak to your fathers or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.’ Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the counsels and the dictates of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.


1 Samuel 15:22

But Samuel replied:

“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.


Isaiah 1:11-17

“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says the Lord.

“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle.

I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats.

“When you come to appear before Me,
Who has required this from your hand,
To trample My courts?

Bring no more futile sacrifices;
Incense is an abomination to Me.
The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.
Your New Moons and your appointed feasts
My soul hates;
They are a trouble to Me,
I am weary of bearing them.
When you spread out your hands,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Even though you make many prayers,
I will not hear.
Your hands are full of blood.

“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes.
Cease to do evil,

Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Rebuke the oppressor;
Defend the fatherless,
Plead for the widow.


Micah 6:8

He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?

 

[Woodznutz]

God gave animals the green plants or herb, he gave humans every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. So likely, it was God giving over "everything that moves" to the animals. Regardless, God is responding to sin and humans hardness of heart, he had just destroyed the earth due to all this sin and was starting over! In the beginning before sin entered the world he prescribed vegetation to all of us, humans and non humans, this was to be their food, this is his perfect will for us!! What does it mean to have dominion? Does it mean domination? What does it mean to be made in the image of God? Does it mean we look like him or have some attributes of God? Or does it mean we are supposed to embody God over that which he puts us in charge of? In the beginning this is what he did, he put us in charge over the rest of the creation that he made. This is a huge responsibility and role, to carry out God's good instructions, to see that the whole creation under us flourishes!

The following is from an article that I encourage you to read. Humans are full of cognitive dissonance or double mindedness. This article paints that picture quite clearly: A Beloved Swan Named Faye in a NY Pond, Killed and Eaten

"At the beginning of Creation ... before sin entered the world, God established what our relationship toward animals should be. Animals share the sixth day of creation with humans (Gen 1:24–31). In Genesis 2:18–19, Genesis 1:29, animals are not created as resources or food for Adam, but rather companions with Adam. There was no predation or killing of one another. So from the beginning, God’s intention for animals and humans was to coexist in harmony as companions with one another with the earth as their shared home. In Genesis 2:15, God placed man in the garden to have dominion over it, to care for or cultivate it and maintain or keep it. The words care/cultivate in the original language is עבד, transliteration `abad. It means to labour, work, do work; to work for another, serve another by labour. The words keep/maintain in the original language is שׁמר; transliteration shamar. It means to keep, have charge of; to keep guard, keep watch and ward, protect, save life. We get an unmistakable image of the dominion given to us as a responsibility to “serve” and “protect” the garden’s inhabitants and the garden itself. Being made in God’s Image is the embodiment of God in order to care for and watch over that which God created."

We still have to look out for many animal species, not look after them. Many predatory animals are inhabited by demons. The horrible dinosaurs were the bodies God created for the rebellious angels after the fall, replacing the splendid bodies that they enjoyed the pleasure of the original Eden in. Even today many land and sea creatures exhibit the violent nature of the demons.

The Genesis account of Adam and the animals and the subsequent creation of Eve was a rehearsal of the creation of the 'special angel', Lucifer. As there were no other angels that were a suitable companion for God he created Lucifer as his 'consort', much as Eve was created especially for Adam as none in the animal kingdom were suitable for him.

 

[Woodznutz]

Except that it doesn't say anything about killing or bringing a dead lamb. You assumed that, because you are looking at everything through a very specific lens. You seem to think God is just like you.

No, the Bible says that God hates the shedding of innocent blood and it even says God hates those who love violence!

The Lord tests the righteous,
But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.
(Psalms 11:5)

I've already talked about animal sacrifice many times before. So, instead of writing it all out again, I'm just going to copy-paste what I posted on another thread about it:

--------

Animal sacrifice is in NO way shape or form a justification for needlessly killing animals in this day and age. God never even wanted animal sacrifice in the first place, the practice was NOT God's idea, it was something that was already occurring at that time in many places in the world. There is evidence that it originated in Egypt.

But because this is a fallen world, often God will 'meet us where we're at.' Assuming those scriptures are legit, one theory on this is that God enacted laws on sacrifice to deal with it in 2 steps. (Some of the following is going to be copy / pasted from a paper a friend of mine wrote on this topic but I have permission to use)


1. Step one was to get people to stop sacrificing to false gods.

At the time when Moses freed the Israelites from their Egyptian bondage, the worship practice of sacrificing animals to idols and to Egyptian gods was widespread and deeply ingrained in the minds of the Israelites living in Egypt.

In the words of first century church leader Clement of Rome:

“When meantime Moses, that faithful and wise steward, perceived that the vice of sacrificing to idols had been deeply ingrained into the Egyptians, and that the root of this evil could not be extracted from them, he allowed them indeed to sacrifice, but permitted it to be done only to God, that by any means he might cut off one half of the deeply ingrained evil, leaving the other half to be corrected by another, and at a future time”.

In other words, worshiping God instead of idols and other gods was the first step toward true worship and the primary objective Moses was tasked with.


2. The second step was to worship God the way God desires to be worshiped instead of in the way humans conceived to worship idols and other gods. This second step was later brought about through Jesus when he offered a better offering to God and thereby completed the way to perfect worship of God.

As another author puts it: “Men were going to sacrifice animals, with or without the law of Moses, but God’s end goal was always to wean men off of such violence and bring them back to the original perfect state of love, compassion, and mercy.”

As I've stated to you numerous times, just because God allows bad things to happen in this fallen world does not mean it's what God wants us to embrace, God is always pointing us toward HIS perfect will, which is love, mercy, compassion, not violence.

Now IF the reason you brought up animal sacrifice was to try to claim God doesn't care about animals and likes killing and death, let's look at what GOD thinks about sacrifice, and what He REALLY wants:

Hosea 6:6

For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.


Psalm 40:6

Sacrifice and offering You did not desire;
My ears You have opened.
Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.


Psalm 51:16-17

For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart —
These, O God, You will not despise.


Proverbs 21:3

To do righteousness and justice
Is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.


Jeremiah 7:22-24

For I did not speak to your fathers or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.’ Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the counsels and the dictates of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.


1 Samuel 15:22

But Samuel replied:

“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.


Isaiah 1:11-17

“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says the Lord.

“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle.

I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats.

“When you come to appear before Me,
Who has required this from your hand,
To trample My courts?

Bring no more futile sacrifices;
Incense is an abomination to Me.
The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.
Your New Moons and your appointed feasts
My soul hates;
They are a trouble to Me,
I am weary of bearing them.
When you spread out your hands,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Even though you make many prayers,
I will not hear.
Your hands are full of blood.

“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes.
Cease to do evil,

Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Rebuke the oppressor;
Defend the fatherless,
Plead for the widow.


Micah 6:8

He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?

When God told Adam that he would surely die if he disobeyed and sinned, who would kill him, or did God create him with a serious physical condition that would trigger his death upon sinning? Or would God dispatch an angel to strike him down? If Adam indeed lived over 900 years it seems to me that he was pretty healthy.

 

[kathydunn]

No. Not toward animals we can eat. If YOU want to do that as part of your Christianity, you go right ahead. I would never tell you that you're wrong. But if you judge ME for it--there you are wrong.

I couldn't believe I read this! What?!!! The WHOLE bible is full of passages about how important mercy is!!! It is everywhere in scripture even when it is not saying to be merciful directly! And no one is judging you, this is not about one of us over the other being right or wrong. This is about what God is teaching us in scripture. It is about being a disciple of Jesus and following him and what he says are the Father's good instructions. It is about searching the scriptures and seeking God's face and truth above ALL else! Scripture can be hard to understand, there is a lot that should go into reading, studying, and understanding it, it is not a simple book, it appears to be designed to have to really seek and discern what the truth is! And God says, the sheep know HIS voice! Mercy is not something one can miss, God puts the hightest priority over being merciful and acting in love - in everything we do!!! This would include how we treat animals.

Did God really give us animals to eat? In the beginning he did not. His perfect intent for the world going forward is found in that very good beginning. If sin had not entered the world, we would not be having this conversaiton, for things would have continued as they were supposed to. But sin did. And now, after the fall and forward, God is responding to sin, trying to save us from Satan and our own wickedness (in Genesis 8 God says the intent of man's heart is only evil continually). God's plan throughout scripture is to provide a way to redeem us. Jesus is the culmination of that plan. What is he trying to redeem us from? What is he trying to do, what is the end goal? Isn't it to bring us back into that perfect relationship we once had with the Father, into that perfect will the Father has had and longs for with us, into that peace or Shalom of the Garden of Eden? Why do we fight so hard to continue to eat animal flesh?

"Thou shall not kill" did NOT specify only humans. Killing is antithetical to the very being of God, Satan came to kill, steal and destroy. Kill steal and destroy what? First of all to get us to emulate him, and the rest is plain to see throughout all our history from the bible days forward, it has been nothing but a blood bath. We war with each other; we sacrifice animals when the prophets in the old covenant continually say God doesn't want blood sacrifices; we argue over some of the silliest things that have no eternal value whatsoever, we cannot unify, which God also puts a high priority on, being unified as his body!

The one thing in particular, however, I just don't get - why do Christians hang on to their flesh eating? It is SO violent, it is a blood bath, it is inhumane, unethical, unjust - sentient beings are being treated like holocaust victims only even worse. We are supposed to have mercy and empathy with other beings that feel everything that you and I do! Humans need to put themselves in the animals place and imagine what it is like to be them, we really do!! It is a biblical principle. Jesus knows our hearts, he knows his sheep, and he gave us dominion over the animals to know them, to care for, protect, and to see that they flourish - he did NOT give us dominion to dominate, use, commodify, destroy - those are attributes of Satan.

What is dominion? -- "God’s intention for animals and humans was to coexist in harmony as ... with the earth as their shared home. In Genesis 2:15, God placed man in the garden to have dominion over it, to care for or cultivate it and maintain or keep it. The words care/cultivate in the original language is עבד, transliteration `abad. It means to labour, work, do work; to work for another, serve another by labour. The words keep/maintain in the original language is שׁמר; transliteration shamar. It means to keep, have charge of; to keep guard, keep watch and ward, protect, save life. We get an unmistakable image of the dominion given to us as a responsibility to “serve” and “protect” the garden’s inhabitants and the garden itself. Being made in God’s Image is the embodiment of God in order to care for and watch over that which God created." A Beloved Swan Named Faye in a NY Pond, Killed and Eaten

As Matthew Scully says (everyone ought to have to read his book, it should be a class project in every high school):

“Let's just call things what they are. When a man's love of finery clouds his moral judgment, that is vanity. When he lets a demanding palate make his moral choices, that is gluttony. When he ascribes the divine will to his own whims, that is pride. And when he gets angry at being reminded of animal suffering that his own daily choices might help avoid, that is moral cowardice.”​

― Matthew Scully, Dominion: The Power of Man, the Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy

 

[Woodznutz]

Except that it doesn't say anything about killing or bringing a dead lamb. You assumed that, because you are looking at everything through a very specific lens. You seem to think God is just like you.

No, the Bible says that God hates the shedding of innocent blood and it even says God hates those who love violence!

The Lord tests the righteous,
But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.
(Psalms 11:5)

I've already talked about animal sacrifice many times before. So, instead of writing it all out again, I'm just going to copy-paste what I posted on another thread about it:

--------

Animal sacrifice is in NO way shape or form a justification for needlessly killing animals in this day and age. God never even wanted animal sacrifice in the first place, the practice was NOT God's idea, it was something that was already occurring at that time in many places in the world. There is evidence that it originated in Egypt.

But because this is a fallen world, often God will 'meet us where we're at.' Assuming those scriptures are legit, one theory on this is that God enacted laws on sacrifice to deal with it in 2 steps. (Some of the following is going to be copy / pasted from a paper a friend of mine wrote on this topic but I have permission to use)


1. Step one was to get people to stop sacrificing to false gods.

At the time when Moses freed the Israelites from their Egyptian bondage, the worship practice of sacrificing animals to idols and to Egyptian gods was widespread and deeply ingrained in the minds of the Israelites living in Egypt.

In the words of first century church leader Clement of Rome:

“When meantime Moses, that faithful and wise steward, perceived that the vice of sacrificing to idols had been deeply ingrained into the Egyptians, and that the root of this evil could not be extracted from them, he allowed them indeed to sacrifice, but permitted it to be done only to God, that by any means he might cut off one half of the deeply ingrained evil, leaving the other half to be corrected by another, and at a future time”.

In other words, worshiping God instead of idols and other gods was the first step toward true worship and the primary objective Moses was tasked with.


2. The second step was to worship God the way God desires to be worshiped instead of in the way humans conceived to worship idols and other gods. This second step was later brought about through Jesus when he offered a better offering to God and thereby completed the way to perfect worship of God.

As another author puts it: “Men were going to sacrifice animals, with or without the law of Moses, but God’s end goal was always to wean men off of such violence and bring them back to the original perfect state of love, compassion, and mercy.”

As I've stated to you numerous times, just because God allows bad things to happen in this fallen world does not mean it's what God wants us to embrace, God is always pointing us toward HIS perfect will, which is love, mercy, compassion, not violence.

Now IF the reason you brought up animal sacrifice was to try to claim God doesn't care about animals and likes killing and death, let's look at what GOD thinks about sacrifice, and what He REALLY wants:

Hosea 6:6

For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.


Psalm 40:6

Sacrifice and offering You did not desire;
My ears You have opened.
Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.


Psalm 51:16-17

For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart —
These, O God, You will not despise.


Proverbs 21:3

To do righteousness and justice
Is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.


Jeremiah 7:22-24

For I did not speak to your fathers or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.’ Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the counsels and the dictates of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.


1 Samuel 15:22

But Samuel replied:

“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.


Isaiah 1:11-17

“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says the Lord.

“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle.

I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats.

“When you come to appear before Me,
Who has required this from your hand,
To trample My courts?

Bring no more futile sacrifices;
Incense is an abomination to Me.
The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.
Your New Moons and your appointed feasts
My soul hates;
They are a trouble to Me,
I am weary of bearing them.
When you spread out your hands,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Even though you make many prayers,
I will not hear.
Your hands are full of blood.

“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes.
Cease to do evil,

Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Rebuke the oppressor;
Defend the fatherless,
Plead for the widow.


Micah 6:8

He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?

God didn't end animal sacrifices until the death of Christ. And, only with the indwelling Holy Spirit, sent after Jesus' death, was/is mankind able to "love mercy and walk humbly with God". So, the prior pleas for such good behavior were prophetic in nature.

 

[SweetSue92]

I couldn't believe I read this! What?!!! The WHOLE bible is full of passages about how important mercy is!!! It is everywhere in scripture even when it is not saying to be merciful directly! And no one is judging you, this is not about one of us over the other being right or wrong. This is about what God is teaching us in scripture. It is about being a disciple of Jesus and following him and what he says are the Father's good instructions. It is about searching the scriptures and seeking God's face and truth about ALL else! Scripture is hard enough to understand, there is a lot that should go into reading, studying, and understanding it, it is not a simple book! That said, it is not something one can miss that God puts the hightest priority over being merciful and acting in love - in everything we do!!! This would include how we treat animals.

Did God really give us animals to eat? In the beginning he did not. His perfect intent for the world going forward is found in that very good beginning. If sin had not entered the world, we would not be having this conversaiton, for things would have continued as they were supposed to. But sin did. And now, after the fall and forward, God is responding to sin, trying to save us from Satan and our own wickedness (in Genesis 8 God says the intent of man's heart is only evil continually). God's plan throughout scripture is to provide a way to redeem us. Jesus is the culmination of that plan. What is he trying to redeem us from? What is he trying to do, what is the end goal? Isn't it to bring us back into that perfect relationship we once had with the Father, into that perfect will the Father has had and longs for with us? Why do we fight so hard to continue to eat animal flesh? "Thou shall not kill" did NOT specify only humans. Killing is antithetical to the very being of God, Satan came to kill, steal and destroy. Kill steal and destroy what? First of all to get us to emulate him, and the rest is plain to see throughout all our history from the bible days forward, it has been nothing but a blood bath. We war with each other, we argue over some of the silliest things that have no eternal value whatsoever, we cannot unify, which God also puts a high priority on, being unified as his body! The one thing in particular, however, I just don't get - why do Christians hang on to their flesh eating? It is SO violent, it is a blood bath, it is inhumane, unethical, unjust - sentient beings are being treated like holocaust victims only even worse. We are supposed to have mercy and empathy with other beings that feel everything that you and I do! Humans need to put themselves in the animals place and imagine what it is would be like to be them, we really do!! It is a biblical principle. Jesus knows our hearts, he knows his sheep, and he gave us dominion over the animals to know them, to care for, protect, and to se that they flourish - he did NOT give us dominion to dominate, use, commodify, destroy - those are attributes of Satan.

What is dominion? -- "God’s intention for animals and humans was to coexist in harmony as ... with the earth as their shared home. In Genesis 2:15, God placed man in the garden to have dominion over it, to care for or cultivate it and maintain or keep it. The words care/cultivate in the original language is עבד, transliteration `abad. It means to labour, work, do work; to work for another, serve another by labour. The words keep/maintain in the original language is שׁמר; transliteration shamar. It means to keep, have charge of; to keep guard, keep watch and ward, protect, save life. We get an unmistakable image of the dominion given to us as a responsibility to “serve” and “protect” the garden’s inhabitants and the garden itself. Being made in God’s Image is the embodiment of God in order to care for and watch over that which God created." A Beloved Swan Named Faye in a NY Pond, Killed and Eaten

As Matthew Scully says (everyone ought to have to read his book, it should be a class project in every high school):

“Let's just call things what they are. When a man's love of finery clouds his moral judgment, that is vanity. When he lets a demanding palate make his moral choices, that is gluttony. When he ascribes the divine will to his own whims, that is pride. And when he gets angry at being reminded of animal suffering that his own daily choices might help avoid, that is moral cowardice.”​

― Matthew Scully, Dominion: The Power of Man, the Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy

We are not in the Garden anymore. Yes, in the Garden, before sin, there would be no eating of flesh. But we DID fall. The one place I erred was being too flippant in my "no mercy" comment. We shouldn't be cruel to animals for no reason. But we most certainly can use them for food.

I'm not going to argue about that; it's clear, and trying to shoehorn veganism/vegetarianism into the Gospel is a dead-ender. You are free to follow your conscience and not eat meat, of course. You are not free to tell ME that eating meat is sinful.

The. End.

 

[buttercup]

When God told Adam that he would surely die if he disobeyed and sinned, who would kill him, or did God create him with a serious physical condition that would trigger his death upon sinning? Or would God dispatch an angel to strike him down? If Adam indeed lived over 900 years it seems to me that he was pretty healthy.

I never interpreted that to mean that someone would kill Adam immediately if he sinned. Just that once sin came into the world, that's when death began. Yes, Adam DID eventually die, as God said.

As the bible says, the wages of sin is death (not just physical but spiritual) which is why everyone needs forgiveness.

 

[Woodznutz]

If sin had not entered the world, we would not be having this conversaiton, for things would have continued as they were supposed to.

It was God's intent that sin enter the world. If not it wouldn't have. God has unfinished spiritual business regarding the rebellion, and we are part of his grand plan for the restitution of his damaged spiritual kingdom. God is making a grand omelet, and he has to break many eggs in the effort.

 

[kathydunn]

God didn't end animal sacrifices until the death of Christ. And, only with the indwelling Holy Spirit, sent after Jesus' death, was/is mankind able to "love mercy and walk humbly with God". So, the prior pleas for such good behavior were prophetic in nature.

If one looks close enough, they will see that after the fall of man, when Cain and Abel supposedly brought what would be the first sacrifices to God, God did not ask them to. It is questionable whether he ever wanted them or whether this was the lying pen of the scribes (Jeremiah 8:8-9). It is also possible they got it from what the other nations and cultures were doing around them, they made blood sacrifices to their idols/gods in order to please them.

We hear the prophets continually saying God did not want sacrifices, God is sick of all the blood, blood of bulls and rams cannot take away the sins of the world, etc. Since most people are bent on reading it that God is the author of the sacrifical system, then this is likely the better reading of it: IF it looks like God is asking for sacrifices, it is likely he is using this system of sacrifice that was already there from the beginning and initiated by the Israelites themselves to point to Christ who will end it - it is NOT that HE wanted it! As was said, we know from other sources that the cultures that surrounded the Israelites were making sacrifices to their gods/idols to please them. It is not unreasonable to conclude that the Israelites began making sacrifices to Elohim to try to please him based on what they saw these other nations doing.

 

[kathydunn]

It was God's intent that sin enter the world. If not it wouldn't have. God has unfinished spiritual business regarding the rebellion, and we are part of his grand plan for the restitution of his damaged spiritual kingdom. God is making a grand omelet, and he has to break many eggs in the effort.

That is one reading of it. A Calvinistic kind of viewpoint. But this is not the only way to read it. There are better ways, ways that reconcile the problem of evil much better than these readings. Plus one must ask themselves, if God is love and there is no evil in him as scriptures says of Him, then how is scripture supposedly assigning evil intentions from God reconcilable with there not being any evil in God?

 

[SweetSue92]

If one looks close enough, they will see that after the fall of man, when Cain and Abel supposedly brought what would be the first sacrifices to God, God did not ask them to. It is questionable whether he ever wanted them or whether this was the lying pen of the scribes (. It is also possible they got it from what the other nations and cultures were doing around them, they made blood sacrifices to their idols/gods in order to please them.

We hear the prophets continually saying God did not want sacrifices, God is sick of all the blood, blood of bulls and rams cannot take away the sins of the world, etc. Since most people are bent on reading it that God is the author of the sacrifical system, then this is likely the better reading of it: IF it looks like God is asking for sacrifices, it is likely he is using this system of sacrifice that was already there from the beginning and initiated by the Israelites themselves to point to Christ who will end it - it is NOT that HE wanted it! As was said, we know from other sources that the cultures that surrounded the Israelites were making sacrifices to their gods/idols to please them. It is not unreasonable to conclude that the Israelites began making sacrifices to Elohim to try to please him based on what they saw these other nations doing.

Again, you are free to follow your conscience and be vegan or vegetarian. I won't tell you you're wrong. This is Biblical.

You ARE wrong if you're telling any other Christian we cannot eat meat. Romans 14; 1 Tim 4

 

[buttercup]

If one looks close enough, they will see that after the fall of man, when Cain and Abel supposedly brought what would be the first sacrifices to God, God did not ask them to. It is questionable whether he ever wanted them or whether this was the lying pen of the scribes (. It is also possible they got it from what the other nations and cultures were doing around them, they made blood sacrifices to their idols/gods in order to please them.

I think you're being too generous. That passage doesn't even mention the word sacrifices, it uses the word offerings.

And if you look up the original Hebrew, there is a different word for sacrifice.

It was just a gift.

 

[buttercup]

Again, you are free to follow your conscience and be vegan or vegetarian. I won't tell you you're wrong. This is Biblical.

You ARE wrong if you're telling any other Christian we cannot eat meat. Romans 14; 1 Tim 4

No one is saying you can't.

We haven't been talking about whether we can, but if we should.

 

[SweetSue92]

No one is saying you can't.

We haven't been talking about whether we can, but if we should.

That's quibbling at the edges. In fact that Bible says those with "weak faith" may just eat vegetables, and the rest of us should let you do so. And we do. But then you're not to guilt us about our choices.