Zone1 Is Your Body a Temple or a Graveyard?

[buttercup]

Ok, but I don't expect the material world to ever be perfect, but I can exist perfectly. Existing perfectly does not mean to do perfect things. It means to BE perfect. To EXIST perfectly. To treat every act as a sacred act. To be thankful for the incredible gift we were given. To use our talents. To be thankful. To be reflective. To be forgiving. To show mercy. To be charitable. To have peace through the storm. To react to the complexities of life perfectly. The Bible is a how to book; how to live life and how not to live life. The kingdom of heaven is now.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you believe that God created the world as it is now. Do you really believe that God created a world with sickness, death, disease, birth defects, and all sorts of other physical corruption? Not only is that flatly unbiblical, but it doesn't even make sense logically, and it certainly doesn't match with the character and nature of God.

Also, if you don't believe in an actual Heaven, then that is yet another view that you hold that is not a standard Christian view. This world obviously isn't heaven. Can we bring the Kingdom of Heaven to this world, by the way we choose to live? Absolutely. In fact, that's what a few of us have been talking about, when we say that choosing to not participate in the diabolical violent status quo of carnism IS living in a Kingdom way, here on earth as it is in heaven.

 

[SweetSue92]

Because your understanding is incomplete and, I can tell now, willfully incomplete.

Be ye perfect as your Lord is perfect.

Judgement will begin with the House of God

Do you have a church in Ann Arbor that's teaching you this stuff or are you making it up?

 

[SweetSue92]

You know NOTHING about my personal life, except what I have revealed here (which isn't much) yet you prattle on

Now, instead of the personal insults, how about addressing the facts I have provided. You don't seem eager to deal with the actual topic.

Does a mother have dominion over her child? Does she have the right to torture or murder her child?

We are not to use our children for food. Humans are made in the image of God. Animals are not. Leviticus 11 and all throughout, for pity's sake.

Again--you are absolutely given freedom not to eat animals if it violates your conscience. You are NOT allowed to tell me I'm wrong for doing so.

 

[SweetSue92]

I'm going to address the second part of ^ this reply later. Because that's something you have gotten so terribly wrong. For now, I'm just going to answer the first part.

Sin is a transgression of God’s law. It's rebellion against God. Like young children or babies, animals do not have the same capacity we have to understand concepts like sin. Therefore, they are not held to the same standard that we are, as humans above the age of accountability.

Secondly, it was humans, not animals, who chose to rebel against God in the first place. If you want scriptures, we can start with Romans 5:12. “Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man…” No mention of animals there.

Unfortunately, all of creation was affected by our choice to disobey God:

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.​

​

Romans 8:20-22​

To sum this up, animals didn’t sin, we did. Animals are not considered to be moral agents.

Like young children or babies, animals are innocent.

And honestly, the more I think and learn about this topic, the more abhorrent this world looks to me, because what we as human beings have done is reprehensible.

We have betrayed the most innocent among us, who trust us and who look to us to take care of them. Instead of taking care of them and loving them, we BETRAY them, exploit them, harm, abuse, torture, and needlessly kill them, for our own interests. That is the exact opposite of what we were supposed to do!

Make no mistake. The Bible is clear that when Jesus comes back, in the age to come, the violence and cruelty of this world will be a thing of the past. Are you ready for that? I'm not singling you out, but the reason I ask is because like most people, you seem to prefer the status quo of this fallen world, at least as it pertains to carnism and the topic of animals. As Christians, we are taught to prepared for what is to come, like the wise virgins were in that parable, and that is just one example of the teaching that we should be ready for the future instead of opposing it.

According to the Bible, here is the future:

The wolf will live with the lamb,​

and the leopard will lie down with the goat.​

The calf, the young lion, and the fatling will be together,​

and a child will lead them.​

​

The cow and the bear will graze,​

their young ones will lie down together,​

and the lion will eat straw like the ox.​

​

An infant will play beside the cobra’s pit,​

and a toddler will put his hand into a snake’s den.​

​

None will harm or destroy another​

on My entire holy mountain,​

for the land will be as full​

of the knowledge of the Lord​

as the sea is filled with water.​

​

Isaiah 11:6-9​

Um.

Babies are not "innocent". NO ONE is born sinless since the Fall, no one.

 

[buttercup]

Um.

Babies are not "innocent". NO ONE is born sinless since the Fall, no one.

You think babies go to hell??? By innocent I simply meant they are not at the age yet where they can understand concepts like sin. That's the standard Christian view. Of course they're innocent.

 

[SweetSue92]

You think babies go to hell??? By innocent I simply meant they are not at the age yet where they can understand concepts like sin. That's the standard Christian view. Of course they're innocent.

They are fallen just as the entire creation is fallen. I wouldn't say they're "innocent", as that's connotated with sinless. They are not accountable for sin, that's true. God will send no one to Hell unjustly, I know that.

I'm really done arguing with you about eating meat. It's a bully pulpit you're standing in; it's not Scriptural; you're judging the Brethren by it because it's how you want to live the faith; most Christians do not agree that it's part of a Christian life. Your sin is in condemning fellow Christians for not abiding by YOUR conscience.

I've said my piece.

 

[buttercup]

We are not to use our children for food. Humans are made in the image of God. Animals are not. Leviticus 11 and all throughout, for pity's sake.

Again--you are absolutely given freedom not to eat animals if it violates your conscience. You are NOT allowed to tell me I'm wrong for doing so.

Your idea of being made in the image of God is the exact opposite of what it's supposed to look like. Being made in the image of God mean does NOT mean looking down your nose at other beings who God lovingly created, in a prideful way, thinking that because you are so much better than them, they are not worthy of moral consideration.

I was going to continue and explain my view on what being made in the image of God means... but I just noticed that you're taking your ball and going home. So I'm not going to take the time to write out my thoughts on this if you're not going to continue on this thread and defend your position.

 

[buttercup]

They are fallen just as the entire creation is fallen. I wouldn't say they're "innocent", as that's connotated with sinless. They are not accountable for sin, that's true. God will send no one to Hell unjustly, I know that.

I'm really done arguing with you about eating meat. It's a bully pulpit you're standing in; it's not Scriptural; you're judging the Brethren by it because it's how you want to live the faith; most Christians do not agree that it's part of a Christian life. Your sin is in condemning fellow Christians for not abiding by YOUR conscience.

I've said my piece.

I didn't say they weren't fallen. Of course all of creation is. But they are innocent. Even if they DO sin, it's not that they're doing it knowingly or understanding what it means.

 

[SweetSue92]

Your idea of being made in the image of God is the exact opposite of what it's supposed to look like. Being made in the image of God mean does NOT mean looking down your nose at other beings who God lovingly created, in a prideful way, thinking that because you are so much better than them, they are not worthy of moral consideration.

I was going to continue and explain my view on what being made in the image of God means... but I just noticed that you're taking your ball and going home. So I'm not going to take the time to write out my thoughts on this if you're not going to continue on this thread and defend your position.

God is better than me, and you, and everyone. That is not prideful. It simply is. Always has been, and always will be. He is holy and superior.

We are better than, say, a raccoon. That is not a prideful statement. It is just a fact. We have language, we have arts, we have conscience because we are made in the image of God

 

[SweetSue92]

I didn't say they weren't fallen. Of course all of creation is. But they are innocent. Even if they DO sin, it's not that they're doing it knowingly or understanding what it means.

It does not matter.

God cannot stand and will not abide a single stain of sin in His Kingdom, whether you know you sin or not. Knowing, unknowing. It's because God is Holy. It's an immutable characteristic.

 

[buttercup]

God is better than me, and you, and everyone. That is not prideful. It simply is. Always has been, and always will be. He is holy and superior.

We are better than, say, a raccoon. That is not a prideful statement. It is just a fact. We have language, we have arts, we have conscience because we are made in the image of God

EXACTLY! God is not prideful, so why are you prideful when it comes to animals?

As for being made in the image of God. I agree with the standard Christian view but I think there's more to it than that.

I wrote a blog post on this topic. Well, it's on the topic of dominion, but within the post I talk about being made in the image of God. Here's an excerpt from it:

What does it mean to be made in the image of God? There are different views on this, and I believe that just as there is a collective misunderstanding on dominion, there is also a misunderstanding on what it means to be made in the image of God. I’m not going to go through all of the interpretations, but one of the common interpretations is that unlike the rest of creation, humans were created with certain characteristics of God. We are rational, creative beings with the ability to understand right from wrong. The problem with this interpretation is that angels also have those attributes, and even some animals can display rationality and creativity. But the Bible does not say that any other beings were made in the image of God. “Imago Dei” is unique to human beings. So what is it? I believe that being made in God’s image is not ontological or biological, it has to do with a unique calling, or purpose. God’s intent was for us to be His image-bearers or representatives on this earth. We were to be His stewards and caretakers of creation.

A Closer Look At Dominion - Live Mercifully

As a Christian vegan, one of the most common objections to veganism that I encounter when talking to other Christians is, “But man was given dominion over the animals.” So I want to talk about this very important concept that I believe has been deeply misunderstood. This misunderstanding is at...

www.livemercifully.com

 

[buttercup]

It does not matter.

God cannot stand and will not abide a single stain of sin in His Kingdom, whether you know you sin or not. Knowing, unknowing. It's because God is Holy. It's an immutable characteristic.

So you believe babies don't go to heaven? There are scriptures that indicate otherwise.

 

[SweetSue92]

EXACTLY! God is not prideful, so why are you prideful when it comes to animals?

God is superior to us. That is not prideful. It is just fact.

We are superior to animals. That is not prideful. It is just fact.

God is not being prideful in assuming His superiority over us. Neither are we being prideful in assuming our superiority over animals. That can be MISused, absolutely, which is a sin. But it's not prideful to state it.

 

[SweetSue92]

So you believe babies don't go to heaven? There are scriptures that indicate otherwise.

I didn't say that, and I don't know. I know God is all-loving, and all-merciful, and all-knowing. I know every decision He makes is just and wise.

 

[buttercup]

God is superior to us. That is not prideful. It is just fact.

We are superior to animals. That is not prideful. It is just fact.

God is not being prideful in assuming His superiority over us. Neither are we being prideful in assuming our superiority over animals. That can be MISused, absolutely, which is a sin. But it's not prideful to state it.

Again, YOU are the one being prideful, not God, when it comes to your standing above the animals.

 

[buttercup]

SweetSue92 - I edited post #231 to add to it, so please check out the link I added. It's a blog post on this topic.

 

[SweetSue92]

Again, YOU are the one being prideful, not God, when it comes to your standing above the animals.

You're just saying that from your own opinion with no Scriptural support. Standing in judgment of a fellow Believer on it is a sin. Again, you are free to follow your own conscience. You are not free to tell me mine is wrong where God has given liberty.

The end.

 

[buttercup]

You're just saying that from your own opinion with no Scriptural support. Standing in judgment of a fellow Believer on it is a sin. Again, you are free to follow your own conscience. You are not free to tell me mine is wrong where God has given liberty.

The end.

There is tons of scriptural support for what Carl and Kathy and I have been saying..... being above someone does not mean treating them like they don't matter.

We've been bringing up numerous teachings like selflessness, humility and SERVANT leadership. Us humans being above the animals does not give us the right to treat them with utter disregard for their will to live, unharmed, and their dignity. It doesn't give us the right to be merciless and cruel.

Dominion (which simply means rule) in the image of God means the exact opposite. SELFLESS or sacrificial love. Kindness, mercy, and other attributes of God. Humans have done the exact opposite, for the most part.

 

[buttercup]

A lot of people say, "we have dominion over the animals, so we can do what we want with them".... but the amazing (and funny) thing is... IN THE VERY NEXT VERSE after the verse on dominion in God's image, we were given a 100% plantbased diet.

So clearly, "dominion" was never license to do whatever the hell we want. It's supposed to be about ruling the rest of creation for GOD, in HIS way, not ours. And his way is sacrificial love, mercy, kindness, peace, and taking care of all of us... not exploiting the hell out of us.

Please watch this clip, it's less than 3 minutes.

 

[ding]

You're arguing things I never claimed. I don't put all the blame on Adam and Eve. I didn't even mention Adam and Eve. I was talking about this being a fallen world, because you seemed to be denying that. The bottom line is ALL people fall short of God's standard, and if it wasn't Adam and Eve, it would've been someone else.

But we (you haha) have gotten way off topic here.

But you got the idea of a fallen world from the account of Adam and Eve. Who else do you blame for it?