Zone1 Is Your Body a Temple or a Graveyard?

[ding]

Read Genesis 3. The bible uses the word "cursed" but the meaning is the same.

What is cursed?

 

[buttercup]

What is cursed?

Read the bible! I'm sorry, I don't have time for this right now.

You are too smart to ask foolish questions like this.

Also, that article I pasted is filled with truckloads of scriptures.

 

[surada]

Maybe you're going by a different definition. Because the idea that this is a fallen world is biblical. Plus it's something that we can plainly see with our own eyes. Obviously this is not a paradise anymore.

But don't get me wrong. I agree with you that this world is amazing, there is still beauty and wonder and good things... in addition to the bad stuff. And I also agree that just because mankind is fallible doesn't mean he isn't capable of doing great and good things.

So "fallen" doesn't mean that everything is terrible, it just means that ever since sin came into the world, the world changed, creation changed, and the way things are now is not the way it was in the very beginning.

You take Genesis literally?

 

[ding]

Read the bible! I'm sorry, I don't have time for this right now.

You are too smart to ask foolish questions like this.

Also, that article I pasted is filled with truckloads of scriptures.

I'm not asking foolish questions. I am trying to show that what you are assuming as fact is in reality an interpretation. I find it quite odd that people think God didn't know what would happen. That man's behavior is somehow a surprise. I don't believe it was which means the meaning of these passages must be something else.

 

[buttercup]

I'm not asking foolish questions. I am trying to show that what you are assuming as fact is in reality an interpretation. I find it quite odd that people think God didn't know what would happen. That man's behavior is somehow a surprise. I don't believe it was which means the meaning of these passages must be something else.

No one said God didn't know what would happen.

I am in utter disbelief that you are actually arguing that we're not living in paradise.

You must be living on a different planet.

Do you not see disease, sickness, epidemics, birth defects, death, poverty, massive pollution, destruction of nature, animal extinction, natural disasters, and not just physical corruption but moral evils, government corruption, democide, and on and on and on?

If you think we're still living in paradise then I don't know what to tell you.... that is not living in reality.

 

[ding]

No one said God didn't know what would happen.

I am in utter disbelief that you are actually arguing that we're not living in paradise.

You must be living on a different planet.

Do you not see disease, sickness, epidemics, birth defects, death, poverty, massive pollution, destruction of nature, animal extinction, natural disasters, and not just physical corruption but moral evils, government corruption, democide, and on and on and on?

If you think we're still living in paradise then I don't know what to tell you.... that is not living in reality.

I don't see how it could have been any other way. Life is effectively a test; a challenge; a purification. Good has no meaning in the absence of bad. We were always destined to have knowledge of good AND evil. It isn't virtuous unless one has a choice in choosing to be virtuous. It isn't a choice unless one can choose to do good or evil. Good comes from bad.

 

[buttercup]

I don't see how it could have been any other way. Life is effectively a test; a challenge; a purification. Good has no meaning in the absence of bad. We were always destined to have knowledge of good AND evil. It isn't virtuous unless one has a choice in choosing to be virtuous. It isn't a choice unless one can choose to do good or evil. Good comes from bad.

I have never claimed that it could have been another way. That was not my argument. I was simply saying that the way the world is now is NOT how it was in the very beginning, and according to the bible, it was sin that began to change everything. That's all I meant by "fallen world", this current world is not what it was in the beginning, and it is NOT the way it is going to be again one day when God restores that initial world of peace and harmony among all creation.

Just because God allows something doesn't mean it's what God wants. God doesn't want us to just throw our hands up in the air and go, "God knew this was going to happen, so he must want it this way!"

No, these things are consequences, not what God wanted.

What God wants is love, mercy, treating others the way you would want to be treated, peace and non-violence, and for us (as stewards of this world) to take care of the innocent and vulnerable, not exploit them.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

Read Genesis 3. The bible uses the word "cursed" but the meaning is the same.

And I don't want to be too hard on you, but ding.... just look at the nightly news. And in addition to the moral evils, look at disease, sickness, natural disasters, extinctions, and the ongoing destruction of nature and the physical world. This isn't rocket science.

Do you actually think this is paradise?

Doesn't "ding" consider himself a Christian? I got the impression that he was a "good" Catholic. Am I wrong?

I can't imagine a "Christian" actually arguing back and forth whether this is a fallen world. We have some bizarre people here who just love to quarrel over the obvious. "Christians" do it too.

 

[buttercup]

Doesn't "ding" consider himself a Christian? I got the impression that he was a "good" Catholic. Am I wrong?

I can't imagine a "Christian" actually arguing back and forth whether this is a fallen world. We have some bizarre people here who just love to quarrel over the obvious. "Christians" do it too.

It's true that some people in this section just really like to argue. lol

But also...I've begun to realize that a lot of Christians (of all types) haven't really given some of these topics much thought.

For example, dominion. Don't even get me started on that. I've realized that so many Christians have such a wrong view on it, in part because they just haven't given the topic much thought, or study.

And then there's the topic of God's intent for all creation and ultimate plan. That's another thing that I think a lot of Christians don't really think that much about.

I was that way too before.... all of us had some wrong ideas or sincere ignorance on certain topics in the past, because it takes years to learn and gain knowledge and understanding.

 

[ding]

I have never claimed that it could have been another way. That was not my argument. I was simply saying that the way the world is now is NOT how it was in the very beginning, and according to the bible

There's actually several ways one can look at this. It could be a metaphor for how we all begin life being childlike or how the first society was pure of heart or it could be both. But in either case it is inevitable that the pure of heart eventually become corrupted (some more than others) to some degree. This is what it means to have knowledge of good and evil and it is inevitable.

 

[ding]

it was sin that began to change everything

Sin is anything which distances oneself from God. But the bigger sin is failing to take accountability for one's sin after they sin. No one is perfect. People are going to make mistakes. It's what we do after we make the mistakes that will determine whether or not we remain distanced from God. If everyone became accountable, the world would change overnight.

 

[BreezeWood]

I can't imagine a "Christian" actually arguing back and forth whether this is a fallen world.

I have never claimed that it could have been another way.

the heavenly events of noah would never have occurred were they resigned as the above two the garden was destined as a fallen world. certainly not the heavenly religion of antiquity.

for which the desert religions are more responsible for its present state of disrepair than any other and have been the culprits responsible for persecution and victimization of the innocent since their very beginnings.

 

[ding]

That's all I meant by "fallen world", this current world is not what it was in the beginning, and it is NOT the way it is going to be again one day when God restores that initial world of peace and harmony among all creation.

Ok, but I don't expect the material world to ever be perfect, but I can exist perfectly. Existing perfectly does not mean to do perfect things. It means to BE perfect. To EXIST perfectly. To treat every act as a sacred act. To be thankful for the incredible gift we were given. To use our talents. To be thankful. To be reflective. To be forgiving. To show mercy. To be charitable. To have peace through the storm. To react to the complexities of life perfectly. The Bible is a how to book; how to live life and how not to live life. The kingdom of heaven is now.

 

[ding]

Just because God allows something doesn't mean it's what God wants. God doesn't want us to just throw our hands up in the air and go, "God knew this was going to happen, so he must want it this way!"

Sure, I'm not suggesting otherwise. I'm suggesting that the world isn't the way it is because Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I'm suggesting the world is the way it is because men fail to be accountable.

God didn't punish Adam and Eve because they disobeyed him. God punished Adam and Eve because they failed to take accountability for disobeying him.

 

[ding]

No, these things are consequences, not what God wanted.

Yes, God wants us to take accountability for our mistakes. We are free to choose between good and evil but we aren't free from experiencing the consequences of our choices. If I had to summarize what the bible teaches I could not state it more succinctly and clearly as saying that successful behaviors naturally lead to success and failed behaviors naturally lead to failure.

 

[ding]

What God wants is love, mercy, treating others the way you would want to be treated, peace and non-violence, and for us (as stewards of this world) to take care of the innocent and vulnerable, not exploit them.

Agreed. But is the world the way it is because Adam and Eve sinned? Or is it because man - in general - fails to take accountability for his choices?

It seems like a cop out to blame Adam and Eve for the failure of mankind. It's a textbook example of transferring one's control to an external source.

 

[ding]

Doesn't "ding" consider himself a Christian? I got the impression that he was a "good" Catholic. Am I wrong?

I can't imagine a "Christian" actually arguing back and forth whether this is a fallen world. We have some bizarre people here who just love to quarrel over the obvious. "Christians" do it too.

Do you believe that anything which is true is the word of God?

 

[ding]

But also...I've begun to realize that a lot of Christians (of all types) haven't really given some of these topics much thought.

I've given it a great deal of thought and have been led by the Holy Spirit. Please tell me how it's wrong to believe man knows right from wrong and when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept, he argues he didn't violate it? Because that's the thumbnail version of the fall of man; and that's what we see today in our "fallen" world.

So my point is if it wasn't Adam and Eve it would have been someone else. It's human nature. So if you want to believe in original sin, blame original sin on human nature. Because it's human nature to blame others for our troubles.

 

[buttercup]

Agreed. But is the world the way it is because Adam and Eve sinned? Or is it because man - in general - fails to take accountability for his choices?

It seems like a cop out to blame Adam and Eve for the failure of mankind. It's a textbook example of transferring one's control to an external source.

You're arguing things I never claimed. I don't put all the blame on Adam and Eve. I didn't even mention Adam and Eve. I was talking about this being a fallen world, because you seemed to be denying that. The bottom line is ALL people fall short of God's standard, and if it wasn't Adam and Eve, it would've been someone else.

But we (you haha) have gotten way off topic here.

 

[buttercup]

There's actually several ways one can look at this. It could be a metaphor for how we all begin life being childlike or how the first society was pure of heart or it could be both. But in either case it is inevitable that the pure of heart eventually become corrupted (some more than others) to some degree. This is what it means to have knowledge of good and evil and it is inevitable.

Based on some of your posts, you have a very different overall take on Christianity than mine and that of most Christians I've encountered.

Actually, I have met some Catholics who hold views similar to yours.

I think we need to be careful about trying to fit Christianity into worldly ideas. Or trying to make the entire bible poetry, when that wasn't the intent of all the authors. Sure, of course there is poetry and metaphor within the bible, but there are several different literary genres, it's not all poetry as some people choose to believe.

I have many reasons for believing the bible. It's not something I grew up with, so it's not something that someone just told me to believe. In fact, as I've mentioned before, I was a nonbeliever for a long time, and I used to have all the worldly views, like evolution, etc. I have a number of good reasons to believe the bible. At least the original texts that haven't been tampered with or added to.