Zone1 Is Your Body a Temple or a Graveyard?

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I already said earlier that I agree with you that there are many good things in this world. I said, I agree that there is still beauty and goodness, and people who do good or great things, etc.

Recognizing the reality that there's a lot of bad stuff doesn't negate all the good. Both exist.

Sure but the good vastly outweighs the bad. It's human nature to let the bad outweigh the bad but it's not reality.

 

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There are other controversial things in the old testament that I thought you might bring up. But the fall of man? I really don't see how that is such a controversial or surprising thing. I mean, just look at human beings on a daily basis. It's visibly obvious that they are prone to putting themselves first, not going by the golden rule, disregarding God and God's laws, things like that. So why is it so surprising that human beings sinned?

Or am I misunderstanding the part that is controversial to you? Is it the repercussions, the world changing because of the fall?

I don't believe the world is the way it is because of what Adam and Eve supposedly did. You don't find that controversial?

 

[buttercup]

I don't believe the world is the way it is because of what Adam and Eve supposedly did. You don't find that controversial?

SIGH. Again, it's not about Adam and Eve! The bible talks about how SIN was the cause of death and other consequences, and that's why the world changed from the paradise it was.

You're acting as if it was only Adam and Eve and no one else ever did wrong. Again, all people do wrong.

Do you disagree with what the bible says about sin being the cause of death and other repercussions? If so, what is your view on why the world is the way it is now? (all the bad stuff)

 

[buttercup]

Sure but the good vastly outweighs the bad. It's human nature to let the bad outweigh the bad but it's not reality.

Maybe from your vantage point. Try being a pig who is put into a gas chamber and suffers a torturous death that looks like something out of horror movie just because humans want to eat his flesh. Or a cow who is artificially impregnated only to have her baby taken away, year after year after year because humans want to drink the breast milk meant for the baby. Humans are not the only beings on this planet, so you might want to ask how life is for the rest of creation.

Here's an excellent quote:

"We have enslaved the rest of the animal creation, and have treated our distant cousins in fur and feathers so badly that beyond doubt, if they were able to formulate a religion, they would depict the Devil in human form."

- William Ralph Inge

 

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Do you disagree with what the bible says about sin being the cause of death and other repercussions?

Can you provide the book, chapter and verse?

 

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If so, what is your view on why the world is the way it is now? (all the bad stuff)

When it comes to humans... free will. Why do you believe an all powerful and loving God allows suffering to exist?

 

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Maybe from your vantage point.

By any objective measure.

 

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Try being a pig who is put into a gas chamber and suffers a torturous death that looks like something out of horror movie just because humans want to eat his flesh. Or a cow who is artificially impregnated only to have her baby taken away, year after year after year because humans want to drink the breast milk meant for the baby. Humans are not the only beings on this planet, so you might want to ask how life is for the rest of creation.

Here's an excellent quote:

"We have enslaved the rest of the animal creation, and have treated our distant cousins in fur and feathers so badly that beyond doubt, if they were able to formulate a religion, they would depict the Devil in human form."

- William Ralph Inge

If the pig were born in the wild, what would its life be like?

 

[buttercup]

Can you provide the book, chapter and verse?

There are many verses about the connection between sin and death, as well as other consequences, but for now I'm just going to post this one, which clearly states that death came into the world because of sin. Please note that it says ALL sinned, which is what I've been trying to tell you, that even if the very first humans hadn't rebelled, it still would've been someone else.

I'll bold the pertinent parts:

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned" - Romans 5:12

 

[ding]

There are many verses about the connection between sin and death, as well as other consequences, but for now I'm just going to post this one, which clearly states that death came into the world because of sin. Please note that it says ALL sinned, which is what I've been trying to tell you, that even if the very first humans hadn't rebelled, it still would've been someone else.

I'll bold the pertinent parts:

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned" - Romans 5:12

So because of Adam?

 

[buttercup]

So because of Adam?

No, read the verse! Read the parts I bolded. It says ALL. And re-read what I said. It doesn't matter who it was, if it wasn't Adam and Eve, it would've been someone else! Why is this so hard for you?

 

[buttercup]

If the pig were born in the wild, what would its life be like?

His life sure as hell wouldn't have been on a concrete floor, or in a tiny cage with no room to move, with prolapses and open infected sores on his body and literally going crazy because of the cruel captivity.

 

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No, read the verse! Read the parts I bolded. It says ALL. And re-read what I said. It doesn't matter who it was, if it wasn't Adam and Eve, it would've been someone else! Why is this so hard for you?

It said, "sin came into the world through one man." That's Adam. You say sin would have come into this world anyway. Which is what I have been saying. We don't sin because Adam sinned. We sin because of our human nature.

It's not hard for me. Why do you feel the need to think it's hard for me. I understand this subject very well.

So you speak of death through sin. What kind of death? A physical death? A spiritual death? Or both?

 

[buttercup]

When it comes to humans... free will. Why do you believe an all powerful and loving God allows suffering to exist?

Yes, I agree, but that's kind of incomplete. It's not free will in and of itself, it's the using free will in a bad way, in a selfish way as opposed to obeying God.

 

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His life sure as hell wouldn't have been on a concrete floor, or in a tiny cage with no room to move, with prolapses and open infected sores on his body and literally going crazy because of the cruel captivity.

Yes. It would have been in the wild hunting for food and evading predators.

 

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Yes, I agree, but that's kind of incomplete. It's not free will in and of itself, it's the using free will in a bad way, in a selfish way as opposed to obeying God.

That's still free will. Free will doesn't mean doing everything right. It means choosing to do good or evil.

 

[buttercup]

It said, "sin came into the world through one man." That's Adam. You say sin would have come into this world anyway. Which is what I have been saying. We don't sin because Adam sinned. We sin because of our human nature.

It's not hard for me. Why do you feel the need to think it's hard for me. I understand this subject very well.

So you speak of death through sin. What kind of death? A physical death? A spiritual death? Or both?

Sigh. I bolded the pertinent parts for you, and what do you do? You ignore that and focus on the first part, instead of reading the whole verse! Read the whole thing!

It's not about one person. It would've been someone else if it wasn't Adam or Eve. People in general are just like them, to this day.

 

[buttercup]

Yes. It would have been in the wild hunting for food and evading predators.

I would say that's a hell of a lot better than being in a tiny cage.

But even that doesn't have to be that way. If humans did the job we were actually supposed to do, even that would be a different story.

 

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Sigh. I bolded the pertinent parts for you, and what do you do? You ignore that and focus on the first part, instead of reading the whole verse! Read the whole thing!

It's not about one person. It would've been someone else if it wasn't Adam or Eve. People in general are just like them, to this day.

I read the whole thing and pointed out that according to the NT, sin came into this world through one man.

 

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I would say that's a hell of a lot better than being in a tiny cage.

But even that doesn't have to be that way. If humans did the job we were actually supposed to do, even that would be a different story.

What job are we supposed to do?

And why does God allow suffering? Why does God allow disease? Why does God allow death?