Zone1 Is Your Body a Temple or a Graveyard?

[Carl in Michigan]

Among the brethren, as soon as you start shaming and blaming, it's a sin. To be frank about it.

You mean like Paul did repeatedly?

Or like YOU are attempting to do in these threads?

If a "Christian" is a vocal advocate for abortion, the rest of us shouldn't correct that person? Like I said, you insist on using the same arguments the pro-aborts use to try to silence criticism.

As long as you insist on justifying this you can expect me to respond.

Remember: the MERCIFUL will receive mercy. The KIND will receive kindness.

 

[Woodznutz]

If I, as a Christian, saw a pimp beating up a whore in an alley, I would keep walking ("Come out of her, my people") although I might call the police, anonymously of course.

 

[buttercup]

You're a vegan and that's fine, but it has nothing to do with scripture.

Veganism - at least the kind I believe in - is simply about choosing mercy, kindness, respect and loving responsible stewardship for animals, as opposed to having an anthropocentric, self-serving mindset and thinking of animals as nothing but food items or "resources" put here solely for human interests.

So when it's put that way, if you think all of the above has nothing to do with scripture, I couldn't disagree with you more.

This is not something I just jumped into blindly. I have given this topic a ton of thought. I have studied and researched this topic, prayerfully and thoughtfully, with a desire to truly understand God's intent for all of creation. I've dug deep into not only the scriptures but also history, and the more I learn, the more I realize that in mainstream Christianity, there has been a HUGE collective blindspot on the topic of animals and how humans should relate to them.

I have written about this topic (I have a website and YouTube channel that I've had for almost 8 years now) so this is not a topic I'm ignorant or naive about. I've heard every argument, I've been in countless debates, and frankly I have never encountered a single valid argument against veganism. I wouldn't be vegan myself, if there was one.

Ultimately, it always comes down to the same thing. People choose the status quo out of: habit, tradition, or simply because they like the taste and want to continue consuming animals.

There is ZERO nutritional need to eat dead animal flesh, so, it always comes back to simply wanting to do it, even though it's unnecessary.

When one researches the animal industries and learns what is actually going on behind closed doors, it is an absolute horror show. In many cases it is diabolical, and in my view there is no excuse for anyone to knowingly participate in that. The only excuse is sincere ignorance… which is the case for many people, and I don't fault people for that, because I too was once sincerely ignorant on all the stuff that goes on daily.

As was mentioned earlier on the thread, it really comes down to how much one knows. I always give people the benefit of the doubt and assume that they simply don't know how horrible it actually is, how evil and unnatural and ungodly and diabolical it actually is. That's why they don't see anything wrong with carnism, and why they think veganism is "extreme".... in many cases, it's about sincere ignorance.

Those who DO know how horrible all of those industries are, but choose to continue partaking in it, that's different. That's something I just can't understand IF one claims to love animals, or IF one claims to want to genuinely grow and mature as a Christian, and aim for God's perfect will. ("Therefore be perfect, as your Heavenly father is perfect.") Matthew 5:48

 

[surada]

Veganism - at least the kind I believe in - is simply about choosing mercy, kindness, respect and loving responsible stewardship for animals, as opposed to having an anthropocentric, self-serving mindset and thinking of animals as nothing but food items or "resources" put here solely for human interests.

So when it's put that way, if you think all of the above has nothing to do with scripture, I couldn't disagree with you more.

This is not something I just jumped into blindly. I have given this topic a ton of thought. I have studied and researched this topic, prayerfully and thoughtfully, with a desire to truly understand God's intent for all of creation. I've dug deep into not only the scriptures but also history, and the more I learn, the more I realize that in mainstream Christianity, there has been a HUGE collective blindspot on the topic of animals and how humans should relate to them.

I have written about this topic (I have a website and YouTube channel that I've had for almost 8 years now) so this is not a topic I'm ignorant or naive about. I've heard every argument, I've been in countless debates, and frankly I have never encountered a single valid argument against veganism. I wouldn't be vegan myself, if there was one.

Ultimately, it always comes down to the same thing. People choose the status quo out of: habit, tradition, or simply because they like the taste and want to continue consuming animals.

There is ZERO nutritional need to eat dead animal flesh, so, it always comes back to simply wanting to do it, even though it's unnecessary.

When one researches the animal industries and learns what is actually going on behind closed doors, it is an absolute horror show. In many cases it is diabolical, and in my view there is no excuse for anyone to knowingly participate in that. The only excuse is sincere ignorance… which is the case for many people, and I don't fault people for that, because I too was once sincerely ignorant on all the stuff that goes on daily.

As was mentioned earlier on the thread, it really comes down to how much one knows. I always give people the benefit of the doubt and assume that they simply don't know how horrible it actually is, how evil and unnatural and ungodly and diabolical it actually is. That's why they don't see anything wrong with carnism, and why they think veganism is "extreme".... in many cases, it's about sincere ignorance.

Those who DO know how horrible all of those industries are, but choose to continue partaking in it, that's different. That's something I just can't understand IF one claims to love animals, or IF one claims to want to genuinely grow and mature as a Christian, and aim for God's perfect will. ("Therefore be perfect, as your Heavenly father is perfect.") Matthew 5:48

You sound very righteous.

 

[Rambunctious]

If my body is a Temple it needs a new roof... new plumbing...
And a good paint job....

 

[buttercup]

You sound very righteous.

^ Coming from someone who constantly mocks those who believe the bible, and constantly gives thumbs ups to anti-Christian atheists, and doesn't believe in anything supernatural, and who has actually used a satanist as a source in a debate while simultaneously bashing known and respected biblical scholars.... I'll take those words as if they were coming from the enemy itself.

But no, actually I'm not. I know I have a looooooong way to go, as a person and a Christian. But the fact that you gave my post a laughie (before I resposted it) and then didn't address anything I said but responded with an insult, after I actually took the time to write out my thoughts in a sincere, civil and respectful way.... speaks volumes about you. In fact, I think you might be the very first person that I ever put on ignore.

 

[surada]

^ Coming from someone who constantly mocks those who believe the bible, and constantly gives thumbs ups to anti-Christian atheists, and doesn't believe in anything supernatural, and who has actually used a satanist as a source in a debate while simultaneously bashing known and respected biblical scholars.... I'll take those words as if they were coming from the enemy itself.

But no, actually I'm not. I know I have a looooooong way to go, as a person and a Christian. But the fact that you gave my post a laughie (before I resposted it) and then didn't address anything I said but responded with an insult, after I actually took the time to write out my thoughts in a sincere, civil and respectful way.... speaks volumes about you. In fact, I think you might be the very first person that I ever put on ignore.

What satanist?

There are no Bible verses that promote a vegan diet.. so you go right ahead and get belligerent.

 

[buttercup]

What satanist?

You used Vexen Crabtree, a known satanist, as a source, in a debate about the bible. While (in other posts) bashing well-respected known biblical scholars. Here is the post.

Here is something he wrote:

Satanism: The Worship of Truth​

There are no Bible verses that promote a vegan diet.. so you go right ahead and get belligerent.

Wow. Are you actually serious?

ON PAGE 1 OF THE BIBLE GOD GAVE ALL OF CREATION A 100% PLANTBASED DIET.

GENESIS 1:29-30

Did you not realize that? Or did you think that paradise was a slaughterhouse?

 

[Carl in Michigan]

In fact, I think you might be the very first person that I ever put on ignore

Most would say I abuse the ignore feature, but I only put people on ignore who aren't serious and only here to argue (not debate). This person has been on my ignore list a long time. He/she/it is a time waster, not someone who has serious disagreements.

The FACT is, the Scriptures in the very beginning and the very end tell us what Gods will is for Man on this topic

Many here who pray, "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" are not serious.

We have written record that Peter, Matthew and James, the brother of Jesus were vegan. Evidence suggests Jesus was too. So were the members of the Jerusalem Church.

I follow the first century apostles and the church they founded. Nearly everyone else who calls themselves "Christian" today follows Rome.

 

[buttercup]

The FACT is, the Scriptures in the very beginning and the very end tell us what Gods will is for Man on this topic

Yep, it's clear as can be, once you see it. And undeniable.

Many here who pray, "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" are not serious.

You know, I don't want to pick on Catholics, but as someone who grew up going through all the Catholic stuff (Catholic mom, atheist Dad, so he didn't go to church with us) I have seen with my own eyes that most people just chant the Lord's prayer, often in a robotic way, without even thinking about what they're uttering. Without even examining those words and asking themselves, is what I'm expressing here sincere and true for me?

Any Christian, (all of us, I'm not leaving myself out of this) who recites that prayer should examine those words and then see if they are truly following it, or if the words are empty.

We have written record that Peter, Matthew and James, the brother of Jesus were vegan. Evidence suggests Jesus was too. So were the members of the Jerusalem Church.

I follow the first century apostles and the church they founded. Nearly everyone else who calls themselves "Christian" today follows Rome.

Yeah, the more I learn on this topic, the more I'm beginning to see that there's more to it than meets the eye. You know that famous quote, "history is written by the victors"? In this case, it's looking more and more like some powerful people who wanted certain money-making industries to continue "won" and have made sure that Christians only learn about one side.... the other side was pretty much thrown down the memory hole, so to speak.

It's a very interesting topic, and I still have a lot to learn (our CCC pastor Craig has been doing some major deep research in this topic, and he's been sharing what he's been finding) but the good news is that we know how this all ends, and one day everyone will know and accept the truth.

 

[SweetSue92]

Jesus down voted Satan's misapplication of Scripture

“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “’He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’”

So me quoting how people are saved, according to Scripture, is a "misapplication of Scripture"? Why because you think it included veganism in your church on one?

No

 

[SweetSue92]

Among the brethren, as soon as you start shaming and blaming, it's a sin. To be frank about it.

For example, if a woman says, "I don't cut my hair or wear pants because the Bible says XYZ and it helps me remember XYZ", fine. I disagree with her, but I recognize her liberty to do these things and will not argue.

When she says "Christians shouldn't" or "What would Jesus say" or even IMPLIES such, she has trodden on MY liberty.

If you say "I view animals as God's creation and it hurts my conscience to eat them", by all means. Don't eat them. But honestly, in my study of Scripture, that's about as much as you can say on that issue. There is no standing to call into question the conscience of other Christians--and that is all over this thread.

The downvote on that from a "Christian" is about all anyone needs to see.

 

[SweetSue92]

You mean like Paul did repeatedly?

Or like YOU are attempting to do in these threads?

If a "Christian" is a vocal advocate for abortion, the rest of us shouldn't correct that person? Like I said, you insist on using the same arguments the pro-aborts use to try to silence criticism.

As long as you insist on justifying this you can expect me to respond.

Remember: the MERCIFUL will receive mercy. The KIND will receive kindness.

Yes, when it's for non-essentials.

You're not going to be able to shoehorn your own hobby horse issue into a make or break Christian essential no matter how much you try.

 

[SweetSue92]

Veganism - at least the kind I believe in - is simply about choosing mercy, kindness, respect and loving responsible stewardship for animals, as opposed to having an anthropocentric, self-serving mindset and thinking of animals as nothing but food items or "resources" put here solely for human interests.

So when it's put that way, if you think all of the above has nothing to do with scripture, I couldn't disagree with you more.

This is not something I just jumped into blindly. I have given this topic a ton of thought. I have studied and researched this topic, prayerfully and thoughtfully, with a desire to truly understand God's intent for all of creation. I've dug deep into not only the scriptures but also history, and the more I learn, the more I realize that in mainstream Christianity, there has been a HUGE collective blindspot on the topic of animals and how humans should relate to them.

I have written about this topic (I have a website and YouTube channel that I've had for almost 8 years now) so this is not a topic I'm ignorant or naive about. I've heard every argument, I've been in countless debates, and frankly I have never encountered a single valid argument against veganism. I wouldn't be vegan myself, if there was one.

Ultimately, it always comes down to the same thing. People choose the status quo out of: habit, tradition, or simply because they like the taste and want to continue consuming animals.

There is ZERO nutritional need to eat dead animal flesh, so, it always comes back to simply wanting to do it, even though it's unnecessary.

When one researches the animal industries and learns what is actually going on behind closed doors, it is an absolute horror show. In many cases it is diabolical, and in my view there is no excuse for anyone to knowingly participate in that. The only excuse is sincere ignorance… which is the case for many people, and I don't fault people for that, because I too was once sincerely ignorant on all the stuff that goes on daily.

As was mentioned earlier on the thread, it really comes down to how much one knows. I always give people the benefit of the doubt and assume that they simply don't know how horrible it actually is, how evil and unnatural and ungodly and diabolical it actually is. That's why they don't see anything wrong with carnism, and why they think veganism is "extreme".... in many cases, it's about sincere ignorance.

Those who DO know how horrible all of those industries are, but choose to continue partaking in it, that's different. That's something I just can't understand IF one claims to love animals, or IF one claims to want to genuinely grow and mature as a Christian, and aim for God's perfect will. ("Therefore be perfect, as your Heavenly father is perfect.") Matthew 5:48

Or maybe, not everyone can care about everything, and we're not meant to. You're on fire for humane treatment for animals. Okay. Someone else is on fire for something else. I do not consider that, among the brethren, to be a marker of whether they're genuinely growing and maturing as a Christian or aiming for "God's perfect will".

You are adding to Scripture what's not there, frankly, and judging wrongly based on that.

 

[SweetSue92]

^ Coming from someone who constantly mocks those who believe the bible, and constantly gives thumbs ups to anti-Christian atheists, and doesn't believe in anything supernatural, and who has actually used a satanist as a source in a debate while simultaneously bashing known and respected biblical scholars.... I'll take those words as if they were coming from the enemy itself.

But no, actually I'm not. I know I have a looooooong way to go, as a person and a Christian. But the fact that you gave my post a laughie (before I resposted it) and then didn't address anything I said but responded with an insult, after I actually took the time to write out my thoughts in a sincere, civil and respectful way.... speaks volumes about you. In fact, I think you might be the very first person that I ever put on ignore.

Let me put it another way for you:

You are SERIOUSLY judging the Saints of God--let that soak in--over the treatment of....chickens.

Buttercup.

The eternal, imperishable Saints of God. We will be with you for eternity. The chickens will not, I promise you. They weren't created for that.

 

[surada]

You used Vexen Crabtree, a known satanist, as a source, in a debate about the bible. While (in other posts) bashing well-respected known biblical scholars. Here is the post.

Here is something he wrote:

Satanism: The Worship of Truth​

Wow. Are you actually serious?

ON PAGE 1 OF THE BIBLE GOD GAVE ALL OF CREATION A 100% PLANTBASED DIET.

GENESIS 1:29-30

Did you not realize that? Or did you think that paradise was a slaughterhouse?

I posted Genesis 1:29-30 never heard of that guy. What number is the post in question?

 

[buttercup]

The eternal, imperishable Saints of God. We will be with you for eternity. The chickens will not, I promise you. They weren't created for that.

I'm only popping in here for a minute, so I'm gonna keep this short. Animals will absolutely be in heaven. Now it's becoming more clear why you feel the way you do about animals. You didn't even know that! I don't want to offend you, but I feel that this needs to be said... It appears that like with most mainstream Christians, your entire paradigm of Christianity is incomplete.

I don't have time at the moment to show you all the scriptures on this topic, because this is actually a huge topic that requires more than just a few quick paragraphs. But for now, let me put it this way... Christians, collectively speaking, really need to drop this massive pride when it comes to how they view themselves and animals. Animals have always been part of God's plan, from beginning to end, and God doesn't only care about humans, God loves and cares about the animals too. Many Christians seem to be unaware that God included animals in sacred covenants and promises. That in and of itself shows that animals are precious beings in God's eyes, but that is just one thing out of many, that is missed by most Christians.

In fact, people should be more worried about their own spiritual fate, instead of the animals.

Why? Because unlike humans, animals are INNOCENT!

Also, people should remember the words "unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Why, because mankind is so prideful and self-serving, which is the exact opposite of how God wants us to be! As Christians, we should have a theocentric, not anthropocentric mindset.

Here are a couple videos for you, short excerpts from longer talks:

Are you truly preaching the Gospel of Peace?​

What Animals Would Collectively Say To Us If They Could​

 

[SweetSue92]

I'm only popping in here for a minute, so I'm gonna keep this short. Animals will absolutely be in heaven. Now it's becoming more clear why you feel the way you do about animals. You didn't even know that! I don't want to offend you, but I feel that this needs to be said... It appears that like with most mainstream Christians, your entire paradigm of Christianity is incomplete.

I don't have time at the moment to show you all the scriptures on this topic, because this is actually a huge topic that requires more than just a few quick paragraphs. But for now, let me put it this way... Christians, collectively speaking, really need to drop this massive pride when it comes to how they view themselves and animals. Animals have always been part of God's plan, from beginning to end, and God doesn't only care about humans, God loves and cares about the animals too. Many Christians seem to be unaware that God included animals in sacred covenants and promises. That in and of itself shows that animals are precious beings in God's eyes, but that is just one thing out of many, that is missed by most Christians.

In fact, people should be more worried about their own spiritual fate, instead of the animals.

Why? Because unlike humans, animals are INNOCENT!

Also, people should remember the words "unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Why, because mankind is so prideful and self-serving, which is the exact opposite of how God wants us to be! As Christians, we should have a theocentric, not anthropocentric mindset.

Here are a couple videos for you, short excerpts from longer talks:

Are you truly preaching the Gospel of Peace?​

What Animals Would Collectively Say To Us If They Could​

Just to start: please cite where in the Bible it says animals are "innocent".

PS I am not saying that we should be callous, heartless and cruel toward animals. But there IS a created order. It starts in Genesis and weaves throughout the Scriptures.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Let me put it another way for you:

You are SERIOUSLY judging the Saints of God--let that soak in--over the treatment of....chickens.

Buttercup.

The eternal, imperishable Saints of God. We will be with you for eternity. The chickens will not, I promise you. They weren't created for that.

You really need to understand the doctrine of "dominion" and what it really means for Mankind, but especially the self professed Christian.

God gave Man DOMINION over the rest of HIS Creation, and I guarantee you it DOES NOT mean what you think it means.

God has dominion over Man. How does God treat human beings? Does he torture us? Does He treat us with contempt? Does He treat us like a worthless CROP?

God LOVES us even though we rarely deserve it. He is INFINITELY superior to us, yet He SERVES us. When Jesus came He showed us what DOMINION really means. He came to SERVE.

Dominion reflects itself in STEWARDSHIP NOT OPPRESSION.

GOD gave us dominion and YES, GOD is judging you as a "Christian" by how you implement that stewardship in your personal life.

Do you ever actually THINK about these everyday choices you make? Does your carnal appetite for animal flesh cause you to excuse the abuse and torture these animals endure for 5 minutes on your tongue?

I've told you, and others here, that several, if not all the apostles were vegan. We have a historical record. So was the first century Church in Jerusalem even before the Church in Rome grew in power.

If you know those things, why wouldn't you strive to be like THEM and not the counterfeit church of Rome?

Dominion is RESPONSIBILITY, not OPPRESSION. It is not torture of creatures that God has entrusted to your care. Yes, you ARE being judged by HOW YOU TREAT those creatures God has put in your care.

My prayer for you, and everyone else, is that you will actually THINK about these things ant make some effort to see things as GOD sees them.

 

[ding]

A Catholic repents of the many lives he stole

If you are saying that my body is a graveyard if I eat meat, then I guess my body is a graveyard. But I don’t see it that way. To live is to consume. You might as well argue all life is wrong.