Is Generalizing Moral?

[William Joyce]

One thing that puts our homeland at risk, in my view, is our reluctance to generalize about racial, ethnic and national groups. If someone had said, "You know, young Arab men from country X and country Y are apt to be terrorists, so let's not let them in," 9/11 would not have happened. Period.

But beyond that, folks both right and left seem to think that "generalizing" about races or other groups is the height of evil. While conceding that it can have ill effects, is it ALWAYS a bad thing? What if it will save lives, and the costs will be minimal?

I'll start it off this way. I suppose that we could have treated Mohammad Atta as an "individual," and "not judged him by the color of his skin" or where he was from. We could have sat him down, had tea with him, and talked about all the wonderful things we have in common. But how much effort would it take to do that for every camel jockey who tries to get in here? Would you be willing to pay for the salaries of 50 thousand more immigration minders, all of whom would get to know all comers as "individuals"? With your tax dollars? Would this be a wise expenditure?

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by William Joyce
One thing that puts our homeland at risk, in my view, is our reluctance to generalize about racial, ethnic and national groups. If someone had said, "You know, young Arab men from country X and country Y are apt to be terrorists, so let's not let them in," 9/11 would not have happened. Period.

But beyond that, folks both right and left seem to think that "generalizing" about races or other groups is the height of evil. While conceding that it can have ill effects, is it ALWAYS a bad thing? What if it will save lives, and the costs will be minimal?

I'll start it off this way. I suppose that we could have treated Mohammad Atta as an "individual," and "not judged him by the color of his skin" or where he was from. We could have sat him down, had tea with him, and talked about all the wonderful things we have in common. But how much effort would it take to do that for every camel jockey who tries to get in here? Would you be willing to pay for the salaries of 50 thousand more immigration minders, all of whom would get to know all comers as "individuals"? With your tax dollars? Would this be a wise expenditure?

It is ok to generalize as taking the bird's eye view of something.

Where it becomes bad is when you cannot directly link (conclusively) a cause and effect relationship down to the individual smallest level.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by NewGuy
It is ok to generalize as taking the bird's eye view of something.

Where it becomes bad is when you cannot directly link (conclusively) a cause and effect relationship down to the individual smallest level.

Case in point:

A muslim believes the koran. The koran, in no uncertain terms promotes killing Jews and Christians. It ENCOURAGES it.

As such, if you are muslim, wether you choose to follow the koran to a "t" or not, you are suspect.

 

[Reilly]

The Koran does not wholeheartedly encourage the killing of Christians and Jews.

"there is to be no compulsion in religion" (2:256)

Further, Jews and Christians were viewed by Muhammad as "People of the Book," people who had also received a revelation and a scripture from God (the Torah for Jews and the Gospels for Christians). Jews and Christians in early Muslim empires were not killed, but were required to pay a poll or head tax in exchange for the protection of the Sultan and the right to live Muslim territory. The Koran is for the most part a tolerant book.

 

[William Joyce]

A muslim believes the koran. The koran, in no uncertain terms promotes killing Jews and Christians. It ENCOURAGES it.

As such, if you are muslim, wether you choose to follow the koran to a "t" or not, you are suspect.

Good point.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Reilly
The Koran does not wholeheartedly encourage the killing of Christians and Jews.

"there is to be no compulsion in religion" (2:256)

Further, Jews and Christians were viewed by Muhammad as "People of the Book," people who had also received a revelation and a scripture from God (the Torah for Jews and the Gospels for Christians). Jews and Christians in early Muslim empires were not killed, but were required to pay a poll or head tax in exchange for the protection of the Sultan and the right to live Muslim territory. The Koran is for the most part a tolerant book.

Do you REALLY want to debate the koran? Do you have something there you can take the whole context of?

We have discussed topics before that you have not proven a valid point on, and I REALLY don't want to waste my time on this one while I am working.

 

[jon_forward]

Originally posted by William Joyce
One thing that puts our homeland at risk, in my view, is our reluctance to generalize about racial, ethnic and national groups. If someone had said, "You know, young Arab men from country X and country Y are apt to be terrorists, so let's not let them in," 9/11 would not have happened. Period.

What would have stopped them from taking over a plane bound for...say ..Montreal or Toronto, Canada? By the time anyone knew what was up, it would have happened. If they want to strike at you, they will try. Remember that safety measures now in place wouldnt be in place without 9/11. I Have several friends that are from the ME, and all hold their native countrys in contempt for the way they have let shit slide.Do our borders need tighten up? Yes they do, but not to the point you would like. there was a wall in Europe once that WE knocked down. It doest need to be rebuilt here!

 

[Reilly]

Originally posted by NewGuy
We have discussed topics before that you have not proven a valid point on, and I REALLY don't want to waste my time on this one while I am working.

The Koran is not my strong point, and I acknowledge that it does in some place allow for violence towards non-believers; but taken as a whole, it is far more tolerant than the Old Testament. As for our discussions, generally, discussion requires the exchange of ideas, and the closest thing to an idea that you have provided involved me finding my place with God (or sitting in a chair with him, or some nonsense like that). Frankly, not a very intellectual example of debate.

 

[William Joyce]

"What would have stopped them from taking over a plane bound for...say ..Montreal or Toronto, Canada?"

The point is that they were able to operate inside the U.S., board planes in Boston, and even take FLYING LESSONS here, all unnoticed because "America is a diverse country, and diversity is our strength."

Bullshit. It's killing us.

And jerks like you are cheering it on.

 

[jon_forward]

I advocate deversity, true. How does that make me a supporter of terrorism as you have implied?!!! 9/11 was a wake-up call to this nation. pure and simple. we as a nation were caught with our guard down. This hopefully will never happen again.If you really want to make things right, lets give this nation back to the rightful owners and return to where we came from.

 

[insein]

Originally posted by William Joyce
One thing that puts our homeland at risk, in my view, is our reluctance to generalize about racial, ethnic and national groups. If someone had said, "You know, young Arab men from country X and country Y are apt to be terrorists, so let's not let them in," 9/11 would not have happened. Period.

But beyond that, folks both right and left seem to think that "generalizing" about races or other groups is the height of evil. While conceding that it can have ill effects, is it ALWAYS a bad thing? What if it will save lives, and the costs will be minimal?

I'll start it off this way. I suppose that we could have treated Mohammad Atta as an "individual," and "not judged him by the color of his skin" or where he was from. We could have sat him down, had tea with him, and talked about all the wonderful things we have in common. But how much effort would it take to do that for every camel jockey who tries to get in here? Would you be willing to pay for the salaries of 50 thousand more immigration minders, all of whom would get to know all comers as "individuals"? With your tax dollars? Would this be a wise expenditure?

Some people see it as racist. I see it as this. If a cop is given a description of a criminal, hes going to put out an APB with that description. If the criminal is a Male, Caucasion, with blonde hair. medium build and about 5'5" the cop is most likely not going to start pulling a 6' Black men over for questioning.

So why is it any different. ITs not "racial" profiling. Its profiling in general. Thats what cops do. Thats what the FBI does. thats what We need to do to protect our borders.

If we know that arab males between the ages of 15-40 are most likely who the terrorists will be, We're not going to grab a 6' Black man at the security check point. At the same time it doesnt mean that we're going to pull over every Arab male 15-40 that we see. IT just means that you have a starting point from which to look. Then you can further narrow your search from there.

Bleeding Heart liberals and PC assholes have ruined so many things in this country. Now they're fucking with our natonal security. Thats where i think someone has to have some balls and say fuck the ACLU and their socialist agenda. We can be a free society and an equal society without having someone suing someone every other minute for their minority rights being infringed upon loosely by someone else.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

We shoud profile based on country of national origin. It only makes sense. NOT PC? Who cares? Let's not waste valuable resources searching the entire haystack for the needle when we know roughly where it was dropped.

 

[William Joyce]

That would be a good start.

I mean, making white, American GRANDMOTHERS strip down as if they're filthy Arabs is disgusting. And it makes no sense.

 

[nycflasher]

Originally posted by jon_forward
What would have stopped them from taking over a plane bound for...say ..Montreal or Toronto, Canada? By the time anyone knew what was up, it would have happened. If they want to strike at you, they will try. Remember that safety measures now in place wouldnt be in place without 9/11. I Have several friends that are from the ME, and all hold their native countrys in contempt for the way they have let shit slide.Do our borders need tighten up? Yes they do, but not to the point you would like. there was a wall in Europe once that WE knocked down. It doest need to be rebuilt here!

Amen.
And said wall would do nothing to protect us from the Timothy McVeighs(however you spell the jackass' name) of this world.

Joyce, by the way when you refer to all Arab's and Jew's as filthy you make me laugh. When I address a political issue I like to think about what I would say to the President or a legislator should I meet them. They wouldn't even let your ignorant ass in the door. Well, maybe in Mississippi or Louisiana I think they almost elected David Duke as their Governor a couple of decades ago.