Is China's growth the product of free market , state owned enterprises or both?

[CultureCitizen]

Now some links to set up the discussion :
"According to thelatest data released by the ministry of finance, state-ownedandstate-controlled enterprises have achieved gross revenue of more than 42.3 trillion yuan in 2012, a year-on-year increaseof 11 percent; the total profit reached 2.2 trillion yuan, a decline of 5.8 percent from last year."
Revenue of state-owned enterprise increase 11 percent in 2012 - People s Daily Online

43 trillion yuan are like 7.3 trillion USD !!
And that's onle SOEs . Somehow this is a hint that China is under reporting its GDP.

China Economy Economy Watch

"As of 2012, large state-owned enterprises produced over 50 percent of China’s goods and services and employed over half of the nation’s labour force. 65 of the Chinese SOEs also made it into 2012 Fortune Global 500 list, including State Grid Corporation of China, which operates the country's power grid, and oil companies China National Petroleum Corporation and Sinopec."

" the nation has gradually reduced its reliance on state-owned enterprises (SOEs) – though they still account for 46 percent of China’s industrial output, down from 77.6 percent 35 years ago"

 

[ScienceRocks]

Both!

Infrastructure, science and r&d big time = big time growth.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Now some links to set up the discussion :
"According to thelatest data released by the ministry of finance, state-ownedandstate-controlled enterprises have achieved gross revenue of more than 42.3 trillion yuan in 2012, a year-on-year increaseof 11 percent; the total profit reached 2.2 trillion yuan, a decline of 5.8 percent from last year."
Revenue of state-owned enterprise increase 11 percent in 2012 - People s Daily Online

43 trillion yuan are like 7.3 trillion USD !!
And that's onle SOEs . Somehow this is a hint that China is under reporting its GDP.

China Economy Economy Watch

"As of 2012, large state-owned enterprises produced over 50 percent of China’s goods and services and employed over half of the nation’s labour force. 65 of the Chinese SOEs also made it into 2012 Fortune Global 500 list, including State Grid Corporation of China, which operates the country's power grid, and oil companies China National Petroleum Corporation and Sinopec."

" the nation has gradually reduced its reliance on state-owned enterprises (SOEs) – though they still account for 46 percent of China’s industrial output, down from 77.6 percent 35 years ago"

dear, China had no growth before capitalism. It had 60 million slowly starving to death under liberal interference. So, we must assume the huge growth came from capitalism since that is the only thing that changed.

far more importantly, do you support capitalism or liberalism and why?

 

[Jomama]

dear, he asked Free Market, not Capitalism. Both because 'free market' demand fueled their economy, regardless of who owned the enterprise, half of which were state owned.

 

[CultureCitizen]

dear, China had no growth before capitalism. It had 60 million slowly starving to death under liberal interference. So, we must assume the huge growth came from capitalism since that is the only thing that changed.

far more importantly, do you support capitalism or liberalism and why?

But then you are being extremely vague aren't you ?
In my opinion Chinas combination of SOE and free trade has been much more successfull than capitalism in other places where pure free trade has been implemented.
So , while your argument is that China is growing in spite of SOE, I would argue the oposite : that China grows because of the combination of SOE ( many of them public) and independent companies.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

In my opinion Chinas combination of SOE and free trade has been much more successfull than capitalism in other places where pure free trade has been implemented.

too stupid do you mean Cuba/Florida, East/West Germany, USSR/Russia, North Korea/South Korea, Taiwan/Red China.

 

[CultureCitizen]

In my opinion Chinas combination of SOE and free trade has been much more successfull than capitalism in other places where pure free trade has been implemented.

too stupid do you mean Cuba/Florida, East/West Germany, USSR/Russia, North Korea/South Korea, Taiwan/Red China.

From your list : only USSR/Russia and China. But specially China. China has a long standing tradition of keen strategiests.
And I would add Brazil to the list.

The Rise of the State-owned Enterprise TranslateMedia

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

. China has a long standing tradition of keen strategiests.

too stupid as always. Businessmen invent things not govt bureaucrats. If China thought bureaucrats were any good at inventing they would not be switching from them to capitalists, and they would not have eliminated 40% of world poverty. Slow??

 

[CultureCitizen]

too stupid as always. Businessmen invent things not govt bureaucrats. If China thought bureaucrats were any good at inventing they would not be switching from them to capitalists, and they would not have eliminated 40% of world poverty. Slow??

Oh Baiamonte, China and Inda have been the largest world economy from year 1 up to year 1850.
For mere 170 years western Europe and the US have temporarily occupied this positions, but that situation has already come to an end.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

too stupid as always. Businessmen invent things not govt bureaucrats. If China thought bureaucrats were any good at inventing they would not be switching from them to capitalists, and they would not have eliminated 40% of world poverty. Slow??

Oh Baiamonte, China and Inda have been the largest world economy from year 1 up to year 1850.
For mere 170 years western Europe and the US have temporarily occupied this positions, but that situation has already come to an end.

too stupid as always. Nice try at changing the subject when you lost another debate. Our subject is freedom versus govt not your totally irrelevant BS attempt to change the subject. You cant get educated if you cant focus.

 

[Syriusly]

China's growth is due to capitalism and huge amounts of government support for that capitalism

Besides the huge infrastructure projects(look at the brand new Port in Shanghai), China's totalitarian regime ensures that there will not be unexpected work stopages.

I have been to China many times- and its fascinating to watch it happening. If you want to see both the good and the bad of rather unfettered Capitalism go to China. I have never experienced air pollution like that in China- not anywhere in the world- not even Mexico City.

If you want to compare China to a country that is more politically 'free'- compare it to India.

Both China and India have rip-roaring capitalism- the big difference is that the Chinese government does not allow its people to impede Capitalism- no strikes, no protests, little concern for the environment.

Then we can get into Chinese government financial support for industry.....

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

China's growth is due to capitalism and huge amounts of government support for that capitalism

...

too stupid govt does not invent things so it cant support capitalism!!!
Ever seen a idiot liberal bureaucrat invent a car or cell phone??

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

If you want to see both the good and the bad of rather unfettered Capitalism go to China....

too stupid what could be bad when it saved another 60 million from slowly starving to death under liberalism and eliminated 40% of the world's poverty!!!

 

[CultureCitizen]

too stupid as always. Businessmen invent things not govt bureaucrats. If China thought bureaucrats were any good at inventing they would not be switching from them to capitalists, and they would not have eliminated 40% of world poverty. Slow??

Oh Baiamonte, China and Inda have been the largest world economy from year 1 up to year 1850.
For mere 170 years western Europe and the US have temporarily occupied this positions, but that situation has already come to an end.

too stupid as always. Nice try at changing the subject when you lost another debate. Our subject is freedom versus govt not your totally irrelevant BS attempt to change the subject. You cant get educated if you cant focus.

Not changing subject Ed, just giving you a historical perspective.
You insist in capitalism, and yet china is a mixed economy with a HUGE government intervention.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

too stupid as always. Businessmen invent things not govt bureaucrats. If China thought bureaucrats were any good at inventing they would not be switching from them to capitalists, and they would not have eliminated 40% of world poverty. Slow??

Oh Baiamonte, China and Inda have been the largest world economy from year 1 up to year 1850.
For mere 170 years western Europe and the US have temporarily occupied this positions, but that situation has already come to an end.

too stupid as always. Nice try at changing the subject when you lost another debate. Our subject is freedom versus govt not your totally irrelevant BS attempt to change the subject. You cant get educated if you cant focus.

Not changing subject Ed, just giving you a historical perspective.
You insist in capitalism, and yet china is a mixed economy with a HUGE government intervention.

way too stupid and liberal as always!! When China had huge govt 60 million people slowly starved to death. As they have switched to Jeffersonian Republican American freedom they have eliminated 40% of world poverty and yet you remain an advocate of what the switched away from. That makes you stupid and liberal, logically speaking. Good luck in your after life.

 

[CultureCitizen]

too stupid as always. Businessmen invent things not govt bureaucrats. If China thought bureaucrats were any good at inventing they would not be switching from them to capitalists, and they would not have eliminated 40% of world poverty. Slow??

Oh Baiamonte, China and Inda have been the largest world economy from year 1 up to year 1850.
For mere 170 years western Europe and the US have temporarily occupied this positions, but that situation has already come to an end.

too stupid as always. Nice try at changing the subject when you lost another debate. Our subject is freedom versus govt not your totally irrelevant BS attempt to change the subject. You cant get educated if you cant focus.

Not changing subject Ed, just giving you a historical perspective.
You insist in capitalism, and yet china is a mixed economy with a HUGE government intervention.

way too stupid and liberal as always!! When China had huge govt 60 million people slowly starved to death. As they have switched to Jeffersonian Republican American freedom they have eliminated 40% of world poverty and yet you remain an advocate of what the switched away from. That makes you stupid and liberal, logically speaking. Good luck in your after life.

Way too ignorant !!!
The jefersonian model has nothing to do with China. The Jefersonian model included small producers/land owners with a right to vote!

Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson

"Like most Americans in the 1790s, Jefferson was a country man. He believed that the nation’s future lay not with Federalist bankers and merchants, but with plain, Democratic-Republican farm folk. “Those who labor in the earth,” he wrote, “are the chosen people of God, if ever He had a chosen people.”"

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

too stupid as always. Businessmen invent things not govt bureaucrats. If China thought bureaucrats were any good at inventing they would not be switching from them to capitalists, and they would not have eliminated 40% of world poverty. Slow??

Oh Baiamonte, China and Inda have been the largest world economy from year 1 up to year 1850.
For mere 170 years western Europe and the US have temporarily occupied this positions, but that situation has already come to an end.

too stupid as always. Nice try at changing the subject when you lost another debate. Our subject is freedom versus govt not your totally irrelevant BS attempt to change the subject. You cant get educated if you cant focus.

Not changing subject Ed, just giving you a historical perspective.
You insist in capitalism, and yet china is a mixed economy with a HUGE government intervention.

way too stupid and liberal as always!! When China had huge govt 60 million people slowly starved to death. As they have switched to Jeffersonian Republican American freedom they have eliminated 40% of world poverty and yet you remain an advocate of what the switched away from. That makes you stupid and liberal, logically speaking. Good luck in your after life.

Way too ignorant !!!
The jefersonian model has nothing to do with China. The Jefersonian model included small producers/land owners with a right to vote!

Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson

"Like most Americans in the 1790s, Jefferson was a country man. He believed that the nation’s future lay not with Federalist bankers and merchants, but with plain, Democratic-Republican farm folk. “Those who labor in the earth,” he wrote, “are the chosen people of God, if ever He had a chosen people.”"

dear, Jefferson was not president in the 1790's.

 

[CultureCitizen]

Oh Baiamonte, China and Inda have been the largest world economy from year 1 up to year 1850.
For mere 170 years western Europe and the US have temporarily occupied this positions, but that situation has already come to an end.

too stupid as always. Nice try at changing the subject when you lost another debate. Our subject is freedom versus govt not your totally irrelevant BS attempt to change the subject. You cant get educated if you cant focus.

Not changing subject Ed, just giving you a historical perspective.
You insist in capitalism, and yet china is a mixed economy with a HUGE government intervention.

way too stupid and liberal as always!! When China had huge govt 60 million people slowly starved to death. As they have switched to Jeffersonian Republican American freedom they have eliminated 40% of world poverty and yet you remain an advocate of what the switched away from. That makes you stupid and liberal, logically speaking. Good luck in your after life.

Way too ignorant !!!
The jefersonian model has nothing to do with China. The Jefersonian model included small producers/land owners with a right to vote!

Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson

"Like most Americans in the 1790s, Jefferson was a country man. He believed that the nation’s future lay not with Federalist bankers and merchants, but with plain, Democratic-Republican farm folk. “Those who labor in the earth,” he wrote, “are the chosen people of God, if ever He had a chosen people.”"

dear, Jefferson was not president in the 1790's.

Of course not ! I will point out that your sentence is totally irrelevant for the discussion.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

too stupid as always. Nice try at changing the subject when you lost another debate. Our subject is freedom versus govt not your totally irrelevant BS attempt to change the subject. You cant get educated if you cant focus.

Not changing subject Ed, just giving you a historical perspective.
You insist in capitalism, and yet china is a mixed economy with a HUGE government intervention.

way too stupid and liberal as always!! When China had huge govt 60 million people slowly starved to death. As they have switched to Jeffersonian Republican American freedom they have eliminated 40% of world poverty and yet you remain an advocate of what the switched away from. That makes you stupid and liberal, logically speaking. Good luck in your after life.

Way too ignorant !!!
The jefersonian model has nothing to do with China. The Jefersonian model included small producers/land owners with a right to vote!

Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson

"Like most Americans in the 1790s, Jefferson was a country man. He believed that the nation’s future lay not with Federalist bankers and merchants, but with plain, Democratic-Republican farm folk. “Those who labor in the earth,” he wrote, “are the chosen people of God, if ever He had a chosen people.”"

dear, Jefferson was not president in the 1790's.

Of course not ! I will point out that your sentence is totally irrelevant for the discussion.

dear, Jefferson was for capitalism and freedom above all and for industry in the 19th Century, especially during and after his embargo.

 

[CultureCitizen]

Not changing subject Ed, just giving you a historical perspective.
You insist in capitalism, and yet china is a mixed economy with a HUGE government intervention.

way too stupid and liberal as always!! When China had huge govt 60 million people slowly starved to death. As they have switched to Jeffersonian Republican American freedom they have eliminated 40% of world poverty and yet you remain an advocate of what the switched away from. That makes you stupid and liberal, logically speaking. Good luck in your after life.

Way too ignorant !!!
The jefersonian model has nothing to do with China. The Jefersonian model included small producers/land owners with a right to vote!

Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson

"Like most Americans in the 1790s, Jefferson was a country man. He believed that the nation’s future lay not with Federalist bankers and merchants, but with plain, Democratic-Republican farm folk. “Those who labor in the earth,” he wrote, “are the chosen people of God, if ever He had a chosen people.”"

dear, Jefferson was not president in the 1790's.

Of course not ! I will point out that your sentence is totally irrelevant for the discussion.

dear, Jefferson was for capitalism and freedom above all and for industry in the 19th Century, especially during and after his embargo.

Dear,
That part is true. What is completely false is that China's model has any resemblance with the Jeffersonian model.
Here are the links so you can compare by yourself.

Jeffersonian democracy - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Beijing Consensus - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia