In your opinion what is the greatest drawback of green technologies for energy

[Old Rocks]

it is NOT sufficient to take your home "off grid". Barely enough to run a load of laundry -- never mind heating or air conditioning or an oven. OR charging your EVehicle

I didn't say you could charge your E Vehicle with a powerwall.
But 10 kwh are definitively enough to power a home, at least for a couple of days.

Avg home consumption is somewhere near 1KW per hour. You live in a Yurt? An NYC apartment?
And the "powerwall" is 7KW-hrs for about $7000 installed.. Not 10...

And why are we discussing homes anyway? Don't you know there's an economy to power? You want to go to hospital and end up in field tent like some 3rd world place??

In a power blackout, you really need only to keep your refrigerator running, and a freezer if you have one. And, perhaps, a light for where ever you are at in your home. That is a lot less than one kw per hour. We keep about ten of those dots with little leds in them that you can mount to the wall for emergencies. That covers most of the light needs. So the Powerwall would be a worthwhile investment in an area prone to blackouts.

 

[Old Rocks]

And yet;

The Global Solar PV Market Hit 177GW in 2014, A Tenfold Increase From 2008

industry groups as opposed to official government bodies, installed at least 22 gigawatts of additional capacity.

There is at least 10 times more solar PV installed around the world today than in 2008. These global installations are now producing more than 1 percent of the electricity used on the planet.

 

[Toro]

Why in God's name would anyone be against solar if it is economic?

Is it because solar has been a pet project of liberals, and conservatives can never abide by anything liberals might promote under any circumstance?

If solar is, indeed, becoming economic, it is utterly in our national interest to promote it as much as possible.

 

[Billy_Bob]

The expense.

But that's changing.

I think solar is coming in a big, big way.

Solar PV panels are a mature technology. And also now a commodity product driven by ONLY manufacturing and distribution costs. And YET -- if the massive subsidies went away, it could not be sold at the consumer level..

I don't know the technology, but hard-headed money guys tell me otherwise.

Hard -headed money guys are getting rich off the subsidies and financing.. Don't give a shit about the long term economics.. Go check the 5 yr chart for a good solar index stock and get back to me..

They tell me that with the advances in technology, in 3-4 years, solar will be economical for half the households in America, with little to or subsidies.

I honestly can't attest to the technology, but these are some of the best people I know, so I take that seriously. At some point, we will do our own diligence.

The stocks don't tell you anything long term. What they tell you is that many were overpriced with questionable business models. That's par for the course, and has been repeated throughout history, from the railroads 200 years ago to the Tech Bubble recently.

Now lets talk power storage...so that the other18 hours there is no sun you still have power... This is far from being a relevant power source.

And dont have a fire in your home... The Fire departments are now training to "contain" homes with solar panels on them due the safety concerns of water, electricity they can not shut off and fireman..

 

[flacaltenn]

it is NOT sufficient to take your home "off grid". Barely enough to run a load of laundry -- never mind heating or air conditioning or an oven. OR charging your EVehicle

I didn't say you could charge your E Vehicle with a powerwall.
But 10 kwh are definitively enough to power a home, at least for a couple of days.

Avg home consumption is somewhere near 1KW per hour. You live in a Yurt? An NYC apartment?
And the "powerwall" is 7KW-hrs for about $7000 installed.. Not 10...

And why are we discussing homes anyway? Don't you know there's an economy to power? You want to go to hospital and end up in field tent like some 3rd world place??

In a power blackout, you really need only to keep your refrigerator running, and a freezer if you have one. And, perhaps, a light for where ever you are at in your home. That is a lot less than one kw per hour. We keep about ten of those dots with little leds in them that you can mount to the wall for emergencies. That covers most of the light needs. So the Powerwall would be a worthwhile investment in an area prone to blackouts.

BS.. I can buy a generator for $350 at Home Depot.. Why the hell would I invest in $7500 of batteries and electrician time..

And we're not talking about black-outs.. YET !!! But if we continue to placate the whiners with their "renewable" toys -- we will be..

 

[flacaltenn]

Why in God's name would anyone be against solar if it is economic?

Is it because solar has been a pet project of liberals, and conservatives can never abide by anything liberals might promote under any circumstance?

If solar is, indeed, becoming economic, it is utterly in our national interest to promote it as much as possible.

The economics isn't even germane to the decision.. Solar is a DAYTIME peaker technology. NOT an alternative to coal, nuclear, nat gas, hydro.. If you look at the demand curves for any portion of the country (here or abroad) the grid demand at 10PM is about 80% of the grid demand at NOON. So there's that 20% sweet spot where solar could relieve perhaps HALF of that "daytime peak" and possibly avoid expansion of grid generation. .

It's a simple engineering argument actually that solar's benefit to the grid peaks out at about 10% of demand.
And -- you ALWAYS have to have that 10% reserve in idled RELIABLE generators that can't be switched on/off like light switches. So you waste energy and salaries idling them JUST IN CASE a cloud passes by....

 

[Old Rocks]

Tesla Powerwall & Powerpacks Per-kWh Lifetime Prices vs Aquion Energy, Eos Energy, & Imergy

What do the “$/kWh used” figures actually mean on a practical level? Here are some examples, just using the final figure from the first Powerwall column:

• If you buy electricity from the grid for $0.35/kWh (with no unavoidable fixed costs) and generate excess electricity from your solar panels that you can’t sell back to the grid, you can save $0.10/kWh by purchasing a Powerwall from SolarCity for $5,000.
• If you buy electricity from the grid for $0.35/kWh (with $0.10/kWh unavoidable fixed costs) and generate excess electricity from your solar panels that you can’t sell back to the grid, you break even by purchasing a Powerwall from SolarCity for $5,000… but are using more of your own solar electricity and relying less on electricity from the grid.
• If you buy electricity from the grid for $0.35/kWh and are not allowed to send any electricity from rooftop solar panels into the grid, and you would generate that electricity at a cost of $0.15/kWh, you would essentially pay $0.05/kWh more by purchasing a Powerwall from SolarCity for $5,000 (but you’d perhaps have to have another source of backup in winter if you don’t have much sunshine then, but you’d be protected against rising grid electricity rates).
• If you buy electricity from the grid for $0.15/kWh (with $0.05/kWh unavoidable fixed costs) and generate excess electricity from your solar panels that you can sell back to the grid for $0.15/kWh, you pay $0.25/kWh more by purchasing a Powerwall from SolarCity for $5,000… but are using more of your own solar electricity and relying less on electricity from the grid.
• If you buy electricity from the grid for $0.15/kWh in the middle of the day (with no unavoidable fixed costs), buy 5.8 kWh of electricity from the grid for $0.40/kWh in the evening each day, and generate excess electricity from your solar panels that you can sell back to the grid for $0.15/kWh or store for later use, you break even by purchasing a Powerwall from SolarCity for $5,000… but are using more of your own solar electricity and relying less on electricity from the grid.

As you can see, the financial benefit depends a great deal on individual circumstances related to your local utility and solar power options. If you are considering a Powerwall (or a product from Aquion Energy or Iron Edison), hopefully this helps you to make a decision.

These figures assume you use the battery only until it is reduced to 80% efficiency. However, we have seen rapid reductions in the cost of batteries on the whole, and expect to see the prices decline even more rapidly as people begin to buy them.

 

[flacaltenn]

Tesla Powerwall & Powerpacks Per-kWh Lifetime Prices vs Aquion Energy, Eos Energy, & Imergy

What do the “$/kWh used” figures actually mean on a practical level? Here are some examples, just using the final figure from the first Powerwall column:

• If you buy electricity from the grid for $0.35/kWh (with no unavoidable fixed costs) and generate excess electricity from your solar panels that you can’t sell back to the grid, you can save $0.10/kWh by purchasing a Powerwall from SolarCity for $5,000.
• If you buy electricity from the grid for $0.35/kWh (with $0.10/kWh unavoidable fixed costs) and generate excess electricity from your solar panels that you can’t sell back to the grid, you break even by purchasing a Powerwall from SolarCity for $5,000… but are using more of your own solar electricity and relying less on electricity from the grid.
• If you buy electricity from the grid for $0.35/kWh and are not allowed to send any electricity from rooftop solar panels into the grid, and you would generate that electricity at a cost of $0.15/kWh, you would essentially pay $0.05/kWh more by purchasing a Powerwall from SolarCity for $5,000 (but you’d perhaps have to have another source of backup in winter if you don’t have much sunshine then, but you’d be protected against rising grid electricity rates).
• If you buy electricity from the grid for $0.15/kWh (with $0.05/kWh unavoidable fixed costs) and generate excess electricity from your solar panels that you can sell back to the grid for $0.15/kWh, you pay $0.25/kWh more by purchasing a Powerwall from SolarCity for $5,000… but are using more of your own solar electricity and relying less on electricity from the grid.
• If you buy electricity from the grid for $0.15/kWh in the middle of the day (with no unavoidable fixed costs), buy 5.8 kWh of electricity from the grid for $0.40/kWh in the evening each day, and generate excess electricity from your solar panels that you can sell back to the grid for $0.15/kWh or store for later use, you break even by purchasing a Powerwall from SolarCity for $5,000… but are using more of your own solar electricity and relying less on electricity from the grid.

As you can see, the financial benefit depends a great deal on individual circumstances related to your local utility and solar power options. If you are considering a Powerwall (or a product from Aquion Energy or Iron Edison), hopefully this helps you to make a decision.

These figures assume you use the battery only until it is reduced to 80% efficiency. However, we have seen rapid reductions in the cost of batteries on the whole, and expect to see the prices decline even more rapidly as people begin to buy them.

That seems to be a realistic appraisal.. But most folks fall into the the latter 2 cases where you are paying MORE for night-time storage.

Don't hold your breath for tremendous reductions in cost. They haven't been seen even with the GIGANTIC market for hybrid and pure EVs. You're looking at fairly mature technologies that are now fighting for another couple % charging efficiency or faster charging times. I wouldn't expect anything like a 25% reduction in cost, size, weight, toxicity in the next decade..

 

[Old Rocks]

Three years ago, I was looking forward to the day that solar would cost under $1 a watt. Austin, Texas, just contracted to put in 1.2 gw of solar at 4 cents a watt. Many stated that grid scale batteries were a least a decade off, as little as a couple of years ago. Now we have two very large factories in the US producing them.



Batteries for Managing the Grid


Until now, large costs and limited manufacturing capacity of batteries for large-scale electrical storage have kept utilities from committing to the technology. Now, a Texas electric distribution utility is stepping out with a plan to spend up to $5.2 billion on batteries to back up its transmission and distribution grid and reduce power fluctuation from renewable power sources. In a study it performed to justify the plan, Oncor Electric Delivery claims the move would lower consumer electric bills and preclude costly construction of new power plants.

But there is a catch: In Texas, distribution utilities such as Oncornow are prohibited from owning power plants, and state lawmakers, who deregulated the industry 12 years ago, would have to amend a law defining batteries as a power producer. Oncor officials are pushing for legislation to be introduced for the change, but opposition is already brewing from power producers, including sister companies of Oncor.

Confidence
Still, the proposal shows a growing confidence in the viability of lithium-ion batteries for large-scale energy storage. A study done by Navigant Research shows grid energy storage jumping to 20,800 MW by 2024, from 538.4 MW this year. Revenue is expected to grow to $15.6 billion annually, from $675 million, projects the report.

 

[skookerasbil]

Ummm.....there is an enormous amount of disinformation and outright lying going on in this thread......and ps, not from the skeptics side!!!

I have posted up about a dozen links in this thread promoting indisputable facts: costs for solar and wind energy are far more expensive than they are for fossil fuels. It is not even a debatable topic. But don't take my word for it......go back and read the links I have posted up in this thread and then decide for yourself after you've educated yourself on the REAL costs of these renewables!!! And note.....my links are NOT phony. The AGW research posted up the AGW crowd in here is sponsored by organizations/companies deeply involved in green energy growth!!! duh.......of course its going to look impressive.........






And I do have to say.........progressives really do suck. These are not real people..........they are first-rate deceivers every day of their lives and they know exactly what they are doing. They promote stuff in here every single day that ***** over poor people and they dont give a flying ****. They will **** over anybody and everybody to perpetuate the AGW narrative and collapse all American tradition to promote the utopian state they seek: socialism. Make no mistake........100% certainty that one who embraces forcing green energy on the people is promoting trickle-up poverty. Only a total bozo doesn't recognize it!!!

Thankfully..........and also not debatable........their efforts have come to a complete halt since 2007. Worldwide, their shit is being rejected. I will happily post up proof by request...........

 

[CrusaderFrank]

 

[skookerasbil]

Navigant Research

 

[Old Rocks]

Nanogrids Versus Microgrids: Energy Storage A Winner In Both Cases

The intermittency of solar PV, which can be more extreme than wind on a second-by-second basis, has long been viewed as a drawback to widespread deployment as a substitute for 24/7 fossil fuel generation. Rooftop solar PV in particular can feature capacity factors as low as 20%. If such small systems—whose primary advantage for residential applications is providing financial benefits (offsetting expensive peak grid power)—are coupled with energy storage systems, the value of solar energy is magnified. In essence, it can be stored and then discharged during time periods most advantageous to asset owner. These same storage systems can also offer resiliency benefits when the larger grid goes down.

While the decline in solar PV pricing has been underway for quite some time, it is only recently that batteries—particularly lithium ion—have begun to match solar PV with a similar downward momentum, thereby increasing the appeal of this technology pairing.

The most radical interpretation of this solar PV plus energy storage nanogrid vision is at the residential level, the application where the nanogrid model is likely to meet opposition from utilities—that is, unless utilities begin offering nanogrid services. So far, utilities in Ontario, Australia, and New Zealand are doing just this (Powerstream, Vectorand Ergon, respectively)

It is safe to say the size of the microgrid market is larger than that of nanogrid due to sheer scale. But microgrids also incorporate combined heat and power and wind, as well as other resources. If we narrowed the comparison to total capacity of just solar PV plus energy storage microgrids versus nanogrids, it is the smaller nanogrid that would likely come out on top today, and perhaps over the long term.

Interesting site there, Steve, with links to even more interesting sites. Thank You.

 

[CultureCitizen]

it is NOT sufficient to take your home "off grid". Barely enough to run a load of laundry -- never mind heating or air conditioning or an oven. OR charging your EVehicle

I didn't say you could charge your E Vehicle with a powerwall.
But 10 kwh are definitively enough to power a home, at least for a couple of days.

Avg home consumption is somewhere near 1KW per hour. You live in a Yurt? An NYC apartment?
And the "powerwall" is 7KW-hrs for about $7000 installed.. Not 10...

And why are we discussing homes anyway? Don't you know there's an economy to power? You want to go to hospital and end up in field tent like some 3rd world place??

... no , not a yurt. I use a gas water-heater which is the energy hog of my appartment. The rest : refrigerator , lamps , computer , laptops , led tv and ocasional heater in winter don't use that much electricity. I have a wooden floor , so I don't use a vaccum cleaner. I use about 1.4 kwh per day. In my case the power wall would store enough energy for a full week.
What surprises me is how the rest of the people use so much electricity .

You should stop worrying about "rest of people". They might have 3 or 4 kids or pets or live in a decent size home with a movie theater room and actual laundry facilities, dishwasher, jacuzzi, and outdoor flood lights... NONE of that is up to you...

I do have laundry and washing machine ... the, elevators,garden and outdoor lights are shared facilities. So I should probably update my figure with them : 3 kwh per day in total.

And , no , it is not up to me... while they don't do any fracking near my water source. Because then , believe me it will be very much up to me.

 

[flacaltenn]

it is NOT sufficient to take your home "off grid". Barely enough to run a load of laundry -- never mind heating or air conditioning or an oven. OR charging your EVehicle

I didn't say you could charge your E Vehicle with a powerwall.
But 10 kwh are definitively enough to power a home, at least for a couple of days.

Avg home consumption is somewhere near 1KW per hour. You live in a Yurt? An NYC apartment?
And the "powerwall" is 7KW-hrs for about $7000 installed.. Not 10...

And why are we discussing homes anyway? Don't you know there's an economy to power? You want to go to hospital and end up in field tent like some 3rd world place??

... no , not a yurt. I use a gas water-heater which is the energy hog of my appartment. The rest : refrigerator , lamps , computer , laptops , led tv and ocasional heater in winter don't use that much electricity. I have a wooden floor , so I don't use a vaccum cleaner. I use about 1.4 kwh per day. In my case the power wall would store enough energy for a full week.
What surprises me is how the rest of the people use so much electricity .

You should stop worrying about "rest of people". They might have 3 or 4 kids or pets or live in a decent size home with a movie theater room and actual laundry facilities, dishwasher, jacuzzi, and outdoor flood lights... NONE of that is up to you...

I do have laundry and washing machine ... the, elevators,garden and outdoor lights are shared facilities. So I should probably update my figure with them : 3 kwh per day in total.

And , no , it is not up to me... while they don't do any fracking near my water source. Because then , believe me it will be very much up to me.

Sensitive about fracking huh? You like geothermal energy?

 

[Delta4Embassy]

By green I mean renewable and recyclable ( the components of the plant can be reused / recycled ) .
This includes : hydro , solar thermal , solar , wind .

no. 4 - my oil stocks portfolio would tank.

 

[flacaltenn]

By green I mean renewable and recyclable ( the components of the plant can be reused / recycled ) .
This includes : hydro , solar thermal , solar , wind .

no. 4 - my oil stocks portfolio would tank.

If you HAD a portfolio -- you'd know that oil has virtually nothing to do with generating electricity with or without renewables.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

By green I mean renewable and recyclable ( the components of the plant can be reused / recycled ) .
This includes : hydro , solar thermal , solar , wind .

no. 4 - my oil stocks portfolio would tank.

If you HAD a portfolio -- you'd know that oil has virtually nothing to do with generating electricity with or without renewables.

Ya, well we'll keep that a secret between you and me. As phrased, "hydro, solar, thermal, solar, and wind" if all that caught on oil'd be less valuable.

Don't give up your day job sport.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Nanogrids Versus Microgrids: Energy Storage A Winner In Both Cases

The intermittency of solar PV, which can be more extreme than wind on a second-by-second basis, has long been viewed as a drawback to widespread deployment as a substitute for 24/7 fossil fuel generation. Rooftop solar PV in particular can feature capacity factors as low as 20%. If such small systems—whose primary advantage for residential applications is providing financial benefits (offsetting expensive peak grid power)—are coupled with energy storage systems, the value of solar energy is magnified. In essence, it can be stored and then discharged during time periods most advantageous to asset owner. These same storage systems can also offer resiliency benefits when the larger grid goes down.

While the decline in solar PV pricing has been underway for quite some time, it is only recently that batteries—particularly lithium ion—have begun to match solar PV with a similar downward momentum, thereby increasing the appeal of this technology pairing.

The most radical interpretation of this solar PV plus energy storage nanogrid vision is at the residential level, the application where the nanogrid model is likely to meet opposition from utilities—that is, unless utilities begin offering nanogrid services. So far, utilities in Ontario, Australia, and New Zealand are doing just this (Powerstream, Vectorand Ergon, respectively)

It is safe to say the size of the microgrid market is larger than that of nanogrid due to sheer scale. But microgrids also incorporate combined heat and power and wind, as well as other resources. If we narrowed the comparison to total capacity of just solar PV plus energy storage microgrids versus nanogrids, it is the smaller nanogrid that would likely come out on top today, and perhaps over the long term.

Interesting site there, Steve, with links to even more interesting sites. Thank You.

Latley I have been reading about a new idea of storing the energy from solar and wind underground, sounds kind of interesting in the future.


Stanford researcher suggests storing solar energy underground for a cloudy day

A demonstration of some of these technologies, Jacobson points to the Drake Landing Solar Community in Canada, near Calgary. The 52 homes there are heated in winter with solar energy captured and stored underground during the summer. Water warmed to 175 degrees Fahrenheit by the sun is kept in insulated tubing buried under 120 feet of rocks, earth and insulation. The stored warmth is enough to heat the homes in the community through winter, Jacobson said

 

[flacaltenn]

By green I mean renewable and recyclable ( the components of the plant can be reused / recycled ) .
This includes : hydro , solar thermal , solar , wind .

no. 4 - my oil stocks portfolio would tank.

If you HAD a portfolio -- you'd know that oil has virtually nothing to do with generating electricity with or without renewables.

Ya, well we'll keep that a secret between you and me. As phrased, "hydro, solar, thermal, solar, and wind" if all that caught on oil'd be less valuable.

Don't give up your day job sport.

What do hydro, solar and wind have in common? They all are methods of generating electricity.

SURPRISE -- virtually NO oil used to generate electricity. Therefore -- QED --- wouldn't make oil a bit less valuable.