Illegal Immigration - The next great national debate?

[Polk]

You are so full of shit. You of all people would stoop to lying in that manner?

Don't worry, anyone that cares to listen to that clip will hear it and your deception will be known.

Immie

I haven't attempted to deceive anyone. It's not my fault that you're ignorant enough to think that video is one continuous clip.

One minute mark proves you are a liar. No one said it was a continuous clip. Liar.

Immie

Throw a fit and call me a liar all you want, but you still have failed to support your claim. The one minute mark of the video shows him saying twenty years in reference to the breakdown of employer-based coverage, not about implementing single payer (which is what you claimed).

 

[Immanuel]

I haven't attempted to deceive anyone. It's not my fault that you're ignorant enough to think that video is one continuous clip.

One minute mark proves you are a liar. No one said it was a continuous clip. Liar.

Immie

Throw a fit and call me a liar all you want, but you still have failed to support your claim. The one minute mark of the video shows him saying twenty years in reference to the breakdown of employer-based coverage, not about implementing single payer (which is what you claimed).

And breakdown of employer based coverage doesn't mean implementing Universal Health Care? Maybe you are not a liar, you are just stupid.

He has said it several times. He wants Universal Health Care. He'd prefer it was before the end of his first term. But he's smart enough to know that won't happen. We're in phase one of his plan now. The ultimate goal, 15 -20 years down the road is Universal Health Care. He could not have said it any plainer than that.

Immie

 

[Polk]

One minute mark proves you are a liar. No one said it was a continuous clip. Liar.

Immie

Throw a fit and call me a liar all you want, but you still have failed to support your claim. The one minute mark of the video shows him saying twenty years in reference to the breakdown of employer-based coverage, not about implementing single payer (which is what you claimed).

And breakdown of employer based coverage doesn't mean implementing Universal Health Care? Maybe you are not a liar, you are just stupid.

Immie

No, it doesn't. The breakdown of employer-based coverage can mean everyone being dumped into the individual market. In effect, that's what the health care bill is preparing for. For years, the number of people with employer-provided insurance has been decreasing. The result is more and more people in the individual pool. The new law creates some basic rules of the road to keep insurance companies from running over them. If Obama really wanted single-payer, he wouldn't have done anything, because the collapse of the existing employer-provided system would have created single-payer by attrition (since, as more and more people lacked insurance, there would be increased demand for direct provision).

 

[Immanuel]

Throw a fit and call me a liar all you want, but you still have failed to support your claim. The one minute mark of the video shows him saying twenty years in reference to the breakdown of employer-based coverage, not about implementing single payer (which is what you claimed).

And breakdown of employer based coverage doesn't mean implementing Universal Health Care? Maybe you are not a liar, you are just stupid.

Immie

No, it doesn't. The breakdown of employer-based coverage can mean everyone being dumped into the individual market. In effect, that's what the health care bill is preparing for. For years, the number of people with employer-provided insurance has been decreasing. The result is more and more people in the individual pool. The new law creates some basic rules of the road to keep insurance companies from running over them. If Obama really wanted single-payer, he wouldn't have done anything, because the collapse of the existing employer-provided system would have created single-payer by attrition (since, as more and more people lacked insurance, there would be increased demand for direct provision).

He has said it several times. He wants Universal Health Care. He'd prefer it was before the end of his first term. But he's smart enough to know that won't happen. We're in phase one of his plan now. The ultimate goal, 15 -20 years down the road is Universal Health Care. He could not have said it any plainer than that

Deny it all you want, but your messiah has said it enough that it is obvious what he wants.

Immie

 

[José]

Originally posted by antagon
solutions of an imbecile, each and severally.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Father Time
Seriously hard labor should not even be considered a punishment for such things.

 

[José]

Founder is AUTHORITARIAN TO THE CORE. An individual with a Hitleresque mindset.

He's willing to destroy America as the democratic, open society it is today and turn it into a police state to solve the immigration issue. A police state who throws people in jail with hard labor for trespassing a national border looking for work.

The warped, over the top patriotism of these clowns has blinded them to the point they can't even distinguish the difference between America and a stalinist state like North Korea anymore (Stalinist states DO jail people for years for crossing their borders illegaly).

Thank God there are still REAL AMERICAN PATRIOTS like antagon and Father Time who truly understand the RIGHT REASONS to appreciate America as a country (its core values) and will never allow these PSEUDO AMERICAN PATRIOTS, these nazi zombies disguised as patriots to destroy America in order to "save her" from illegal immigration.

 

[José]

Originally posted by silkyeggsalad
I agree. It does cost tax dollars. I'd prefer our tax dollars in relation to illegal immigration be spent on enforcement, rather than providing social services or incarceration.

I can't wrap my head around why we imprison illegal immigrants instead of deporting them. I can see it for felony charges--but I think the numbers in the cited study are unreliable--but much of our prison population is for non-violent crimes and I have no reason to believe that ratio doesn't translate to the illegal immigrant population as well. Illegal immigrants arrested for non-violent crimes should be deported, not imprisoned. I think that would cost us less.

Sorry people. I forgot to include silkyeggsalad.

Here's another wonderful example of a REAL AMERICAN PATRIOT who's not willing to the turn the american open society into a concentration camp in order to "protect it" from illegal imigration.

 

[José]

Founder is a PHONY because you cannot love a country whose core values you simply don't understand or do not care to preserve.

 

[Angelhair]

We can only preserve those values if we FOLLOW OUR LAWS. It seems that in the past years we have not followed our own laws when it comes to illegal entry. We are being intimidated by the pro-illegal advocates that make it their profession to defend that which is not defendable. We have the spanish media advocating illegal entry and supplying information to protect those who are here without the permission of the USA. It seems we have become a world joke in more ways than one.

 

[Foxfyre]

Jose, thank you for pulling the thread back on topic.

(Healthcare is an important topic but there are plenty of threads to battle that out guys. It is ipertinent to this thread only as it is affected by illegal immigration.)

But Jose, why are any members 'phony' because they are angry about people thumbing their noses at our laws and taking advantage of American generosity and compassion without assuming any of the responsibility for that?

There is room to debate what should be done about that, and obviously we are not all in agreement exactly what should be done in every case. But that is why there are national debates.

Certainly the USA is less 'dranconian' in how they treat their legals than are the countries from which most of those illegals come. And that is certainly why we have so many illegals.

I for one don't think it is the least bit 'phony' to object to that.

So I'll ask again. What should we do, and I thank those who have responded so far whether or not we agree with them.

Father Time for instance, you say imprisonment and hard labor is excessive for entering the country illegally. I would agree but I don't know of any state that is imprisoning people just because they are here illegally.

So what do you think we should do with illegal immigrants?

(I'm travelling right now so can log in only intermittently, but will get back to all responses soon.)

 

[José]

Originally posted by Foxfyre
But Jose, why are any members 'phony' because they are angry about people thumbing their noses at our laws and taking advantage of American generosity and compassion without assuming any of the responsibility for that?

Should illegal anglo settlers entering the province of California or Tejas illegaly in the 19th century be shot or kept in prison with hard labor for years in Mexico City?

Hell no!! That would have been a cruel punishment, absolutely disproportionate to their infraction even if we take into consideration that 19th century Mexico was far from being the open society America is today.

They should have been arrested and sent back to the states.

Get this through your heads, people. Whether we're talking about 19th century Mexico or 21th century America shooting and jailing illegal immigrants for years is just wrong. And democratic states, IN PARTICULAR, don't kill of jail foreign civilians for illegal entry.

This often results in bigger immigration problems as Foxfyre rightly pointed out but what can they do??

This is the price they have to pay for being open, democratic societies instead of totalitarian states.

But I'll give you this, Foxfyre:

I shouldn't be so hard on people like Founder because their totalitarian proposals ( SHOOT THEM, JAIL THEM, etc etc...) are the direct result of years and years of accumulated frustration with the US government's dereliction of duty..

So they take out their frustrations on illegal immigrants following the basic human instinct of moving from poorer to wealthier parts of the world.

Taking out one's frustrations on the weakest link is one of the nastiest things people can do but it is absolutely human.

Everybody has already done that AT LEAST once in his/her life so no one can cast the first stone

 

[José]

Originally posted by Angelhair
We can only preserve those values if we FOLLOW OUR LAWS. It seems that in the past years we have not followed our own laws when it comes to illegal entry.

Exactly, Angel. And this is one of the tragic results of this huge dereliction of duty on the part of the American government:

This failure to follow its own laws leads many american citizens to accumulate massive levels of frustration that often explode in bursts of authoritarian and even homicidal proposals to reduce illegal immigration.

 

[Samson]

Seriously hard labor should not even be considered a punishment for such things.

And what the hell does she mean by subsidizing the birthrate of other nations? Does she think we pay other nations to grow their populations. It sounds like eugenics.

True: I really cannot see that the threat of being given room and board to wack weeds all day in Houston during July would be much different than their fate if they did NOT get caught.

But something needs to be done.

Enforcing exitsting Laws seems like it would be a logical starting point: Fining Employers to compensate for detainment and deportation costs of Illegal Hires, and also punitive measures against Mexico designed to decrease government corruption.

Its astonishing to me that we invade corrupt governments on the other side of the planet, but when they're our neighbors, we sign Free Trade Agreements with them.

 

[José]

See what I mean, people??

Samson's post is a perfect example of the accumulated frustration leading to irrational paroxisms of violence against illegal immigrants and unjust retaliatory measures against neighboring countries I talked about in my previous post:

"My country's immigration services don't do what I pay them to do so I'm gonna start lashing out at neighboring countries for not keeping their poor citizens inside their borders just like good, old East Germany used to do with its Berlin Wall."

"America spent decades accusing comunist countries in Eastern Europe of keeping their citizens inside their borders by brute force but I want Mexico to do just that so that America's immigration problem can be solved."

"Mexico is under no obligation to double as America's Border Patrol.

No country in the world, for that matter, is under any obligation to serve as their neighbor's Border Patrol but my unbelievably high levels of frustration with my country's inaction regarding illegal immigration prevent me from thinking properly about this issue."

 

[antagon]

Jose, thank you for pulling the thread back on topic.

(Healthcare is an important topic but there are plenty of threads to battle that out guys. It is ipertinent to this thread only as it is affected by illegal immigration.)

But Jose, why are any members 'phony' because they are angry about people thumbing their noses at our laws and taking advantage of American generosity and compassion without assuming any of the responsibility for that?

There is room to debate what should be done about that, and obviously we are not all in agreement exactly what should be done in every case. But that is why there are national debates.

Certainly the USA is less 'dranconian' in how they treat their legals than are the countries from which most of those illegals come. And that is certainly why we have so many illegals.

I for one don't think it is the least bit 'phony' to object to that.

So I'll ask again. What should we do, and I thank those who have responded so far whether or not we agree with them.

Father Time for instance, you say imprisonment and hard labor is excessive for entering the country illegally. I would agree but I don't know of any state that is imprisoning people just because they are here illegally.

So what do you think we should do with illegal immigrants?

(I'm travelling right now so can log in only intermittently, but will get back to all responses soon.)

this is a great thread, fox, and you're doing a good job moderating it.

i think where phony comes in is that some solutions compromise what is great about our society to affect immigration reform. americans are not like people like founder. that is some nazi shit. while there are americans who might believe that those are viable solutions, or who are in fact nazis, that they wave the american flag ahead of their ideals is a misrepresentation of the ideals the country was founded on. give us your poor...

hitler had the sense to create a symbol of his bullshit independent from the german flag.

back to business, the economic issues raised by illegal immigration are the biggest for me. we have a 10% unemployment rate with 5-10 million workers not accounted for. we run budget deficits with 5-10 million households not reporting. its my take that we need to account for the earnings that immigrants are making in the way of tax and fee-based visas.

to add to what a few have said recently, not only does there need to be enforcement of existing laws, but these laws need to be more enforceable. Pandemic illegal immigration has no solutions outside of cutting nazis loose on their own recognizance. if the issue is reduced to an epidemic issue, where non-compliance is an exception rather than the rule, we could begin to look at enforcement reasonably.

next, when people want your widgets en masse, you sell them at a competitive price. the government gives away visas and citizenship for at or around the cost of processing them, however, american citizenship is one of the most coveted widgets in the world. it will guarantee that your kids will likely make $750k or so in their lifetime in pursuit of the american dream. if they play their cards right they can make $750,000,000 or $7,500,000,000 in as much time. i suggested here that this privilege come at a fee, and that the greedy bastards at the IRS chase it down.

writing this, i wonder if there is room for marketized trading of visas issued by the government, and traded among private agencies on an exchange and on the street to the immigrants themselves. such a system would allow the government to allocate a rate and volume of legal immigration, while a market determines the price.

 

[Samson]

See what I mean, people??

Samson's post is a perfect example of the accumulated frustration leading to irrational paroxisms of violence against i....

No country in the world, for that matter, is under any obligation to serve as their neighbor's Border Patrol but my unbelievably high levels of frustration with my country's inaction regarding illegal immigration prevent me from thinking properly about this issue.[/B]"

Actually, I didn't say anything about violence toward illegal hires, or Mexico's "obligation to serve as their neighbor's Border Patrol."

I did say that the levels of Mexican Government Corruption are high enough to be compared with Saddam's Iraq, and that granting Free Trade Agreements with Mexico seems more than a little duplicious.

 

[Immanuel]

Jose, thank you for pulling the thread back on topic.

(Healthcare is an important topic but there are plenty of threads to battle that out guys. It is ipertinent to this thread only as it is affected by illegal immigration.)

My apologies! I had forgotten what thread I was on.

Immie

 

[antagon]

i'd say that free trade is a good policy when immigration is considered. what better a hand up mexico's ass than that? diplomacy will never be a do this or else game, notwithstanding the hopes of neoconservatives, but affected with trade-offs, we probably could see mexico looking to empower their economy through their own industriousness on their own land, than through their industriousness on our land and money-gram.

no better example than the clinton and bush NAFTA policies and the latter's precipitation of increased border-town corruption and failed legal enterprise for mexico and the US.

 

[Terral]

Hi Jose:

Thank God there are still REAL AMERICAN PATRIOTS like antagon and Father Time who truly understand the RIGHT REASONS to appreciate America as a country (its core values) and will never allow these PSEUDO AMERICAN PATRIOTS, these nazi zombies disguised as patriots to destroy America in order to "save her" from illegal immigration.

Get real, Jose. There is no such thing as 'illegal immigration.' Jose is using Open Border Lobby Lingo to camouflage his Open Border Lobby Disinformation Propaganda in favor of the Illegal Alien Invasion of this once-great nation. "Immigration" is what 'legal' immigrants do in order to come into the USA through the 'front door.' Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals come here in the middle of the night to steal identities and JOBS from U.S. Citizens, which has NOTHING whatsoever to do with 'immigration.' Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals are 'lawbreakers' the moment they enter the USA through the back door.

Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals are 'lawbreakers' in the moment they falsify documentation in order to obtain the appearance of 'legal working status.' Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals are 'lawbreakers' in the instant they take a JOB from a real American Citizen, which only works to take bread out of the mouths of American Children already living in poverty. Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals are 'lawbreakers' in the moment they join the Obama Illegal Alien Labor Pool that displaces millions and millions and millions of real U.S. Citizens from JOBS. Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals kill 25 U.S. Citizens EVERY DAMNED DAY (12 by murder), because our corrupt Congress and Obama Administration refuse to enforce perfectly good Immigration and Employment Laws already on the books. That means the USA is willing to sacrifice 10,000 real U.S. Citizens every year in order to feed the corporate/contractor appetite for cheap illegal labor, so unscrupulous corporations and contractors can undercut the competition.

Do not try to convince anyone that Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals are simply coming to the USA 'illegally' to work, when they bring diseases and poverty and lawlessness that are only destroying the USA as we knew it. If your Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals (citizens of other countries) really wanted to enter the USA to 'work,' they would come through the front door like 2 Million Foreign Nationals that come to America and do things right.

Everyone hiring Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals should be thrown into prison 'and' have their business licenses removed FOR LIFE. Then the Illegal Aliens would find their own way back home ...

GL,

Terral