Illegal Immigration - The next great national debate?

[Samson]

"25-50% of all gangsters arrested in the criminal gang suppression efforts in northern and western Virginia are estimated to be illegal immigrants."
(Study for Immigration Studies).

The Study for Immigration Studies?

I'll need to study that one.

I can't find it on google so I'm tempted to believe it doesn't exist.

Although the center isn't exactly neutral itself.

Um....yes, I'm tempted to believe that also....

 

[Immanuel]

Yeah, doctors are paupers, don't you know.

Doesn't matter... any doctor that stands up and says he is opposed to Obama's health care plan suddenly finds himself on the enemies of state list or at least the enemy of the media list. Not so sure which is worse.

Immie

Yeah. The guy is having bamboo shoots jabbed under his fingernails right now, don't you know.

Must you give them the idea? Ask Care4all, I'm sure she would be thrilled to do the jabbing.

Immie

 

[Sheldon]

If a number of pundits are right, the focus of the current Administration and Congress will now turn back to illegal immigration.

What, if anything, should we do to stop people from entering the United States illegally?

I just posted this idea in another thread. The best long-term solution might be with stable growth of the Mexican economy. If there are expanding job opportunities in Mexico, there's no need to cross the border looking for jobs here. Ending subsidies might expand some industries' growth into Mexico. And there are other benefits to ending subsidies, but I won't go into that.

In general, I think most illegal immigrants don't come here to fuck around. They desperately want work so they can support the family. For every horror story about an illegal immigrant joining MS-13, there's probably ten times the number of stories about those who keep their head down, work in a back-breaking job just to send three-fourths of their earning home.

But they're still breaking the law. That has to be recognized.

Immediate deportation. No amnesty, because that's unfair to those who wait in line for months--even years--to come here with the appropriate paperwork.

Vote 'em out?


a) Immediate deportation
b) Depends on the offense. Are we talking a family member that harbors her son-in-law who just hopped the fence yesterday, or an underground operation that hauls dozens of illegal immigrants across the border every day?
c) First time offense: fine the business one-years salary of highest-paid worker for each illegal immigrant employed. Second time offense and thereafter: Strip any licensing associated with the business. Owner faces a personal fine of up to $50,000 (fyi: equal to violating the DMCA).

Should people living in the United States illegally be provided the education benefits, health care, social security, workers compensation benefits, low income assistance, etc. that is available to U.S. citizens?

No. The only moral argument I can see would be about treating a medical emergency--i.e. a roofer shoot a nine-inch nail through his palm. But as far as any of the social programs listed, no.

I think most conservatives would buy into most of your points. But SCOTUS--at least I think it was the high court--tells us we cannot deny social services to illegals. How do we get around that?

I'm not sure. Could you site the case, because now I'm curious to know the thought process behind that concept.

I think it's important to distinguish between illegal immigrants and non-citizens. A foreigner on vacation here should receive ER medical care, even though the hospital may not recognize that individual's insurance--which many foreign countries don't require of their citizens, anyways (let me put it this way: if I were on vacation in England, I'd want preliminary access to their hospitals in case I got hit by a big red bus because I forgot they drive on the wrong side of the road).

But what do we mean by social services? That's a broad definition, and I can see where treating an illegal immigrant in the ER with a severed hand could be justified--I'm not arguing for or against that, but I can see the merits to both arguments--but I couldn't see an argument for providing, say, unemployment counseling, or housing assistance to someone who cannot verify their citizenship with legal documents.

The case you're referring to may make some important distinctions regarding "social services". Or maybe not. I don't have much faith in SCOTUS these days, especially since Kelo -v- New London.

 

[Polk]

Doesn't matter... any doctor that stands up and says he is opposed to Obama's health care plan suddenly finds himself on the enemies of state list or at least the enemy of the media list. Not so sure which is worse.

Immie

Yeah. The guy is having bamboo shoots jabbed under his fingernails right now, don't you know.

Must you give them the idea? Ask Care4all, I'm sure she would be thrilled to do the jabbing.

Immie

Really though, the guy isn't taking flax of his political positions. If he had simply stated his views, there wouldn't have been any outrage. It's that he's saying he's going to violate the ethical tenets of his profession over his political views that made it such an issue. I know for sure that if I was an African-American, I'd find another doctor. I'm not saying he'd try to kill anyone, but there is a sizable body of research that suggests how well you get along with your doctor has a direct impact on medical outcomes.

 

[Father Time]

Let's put this into the proper context. Nobody has said all immigrants in any context, except you.

What we are talking about here is illegal immigration. Illegal immigrants, by definition, are illegal. They are thumbing their noses at our laws, and a disproportionate percentage of prisoners in our prisons, especially in the border states, are illegals that committed worse crimes than crossing the border illegally.

I'm not saying they should be please. But please explain your rationale for why all illegal immigrants should not be treated as potential terrorists.

I meant all illegal immigrants, sorry.

They should not all be treated as potential terrorists because crossing the border (even illegally) is not a sign that they're terrorists. It's that simple.

Also I want a source that most people in prison in border states are illegals.

Why is it, that I, an American Citizen, must show identification, go through a metal detector, take my shoes off, etc., to fly from Denver to Houston, but an illegal alien should be able to walk into Houston carrying whatever the hell dirty bomb he may have, and never be asked to REMOVE HIS SHOES?

Ok fine but prol was speaking of Gitmo and I think that's taking it way too far.

 

[Immanuel]

Yeah. The guy is having bamboo shoots jabbed under his fingernails right now, don't you know.

Must you give them the idea? Ask Care4all, I'm sure she would be thrilled to do the jabbing.

Immie

Really though, the guy isn't taking flax of his political positions. If he had simply stated his views, there wouldn't have been any outrage. It's that he's saying he's going to violate the ethical tenets of his profession over his political views that made it such an issue. I know for sure that if I was an African-American, I'd find another doctor. I'm not saying he'd try to kill anyone, but there is a sizable body of research that suggests how well you get along with your doctor has a direct impact on medical outcomes.

Well, I respect your opinion, but I don't see it in the same light as you do.

I think that despite the fact that the sign was addressed to his patients, the message was intended solely for the government.

If he had actually turned away customers or asked them to sign a form stating they had not voted for President Obama or even asked them if they did, I would agree you. I think the message was only meant for the government.

By the way, in the other two threads I have discussed this in, I initially stated if he had been my doctor, he would no longer be. I do not approve of his methods. This is not the fault of those who voted for the President. They had no way of knowing what would happen.

Immie

 

[Polk]

How would it not be their fault? To the extent voters are responsible for anything that occurs, surely they're accountable to voting for a candidate and then that candidate carrying out his campaign promises.

 

[Immanuel]

How would it not be their fault? To the extent voters are responsible for anything that occurs, surely they're accountable to voting for a candidate and then that candidate carrying out his campaign promises.

Like a candidate has ever followed through with a promise!

Obama promised health care reform. He didn't promise the shit we got.

Immie

 

[Polk]

How would it not be their fault? To the extent voters are responsible for anything that occurs, surely they're accountable to voting for a candidate and then that candidate carrying out his campaign promises.

Like a candidate has ever followed through with a promise!

Obama promised health care reform. He didn't promise the shit we got.

Immie

Isn't that sorta like saying he promised ice cream, but you can't say he delivered it because it's strawberry?

 

[Immanuel]

How would it not be their fault? To the extent voters are responsible for anything that occurs, surely they're accountable to voting for a candidate and then that candidate carrying out his campaign promises.

Like a candidate has ever followed through with a promise!

Obama promised health care reform. He didn't promise the shit we got.

Immie

Isn't that sorta like saying he promised ice cream, but you can't say he delivered it because it's strawberry?

No, its like saying we all wanted Health Care Reform and we got a government take over.

Another thing, most people, regardless of party, don't vote on the promises, they vote for the party. Maybe you can blame them for that, but that is getting a bit petty in my opinion.

Immie

 

[Polk]

Like a candidate has ever followed through with a promise!

Obama promised health care reform. He didn't promise the shit we got.

Immie

Isn't that sorta like saying he promised ice cream, but you can't say he delivered it because it's strawberry?

No, its like saying we all wanted Health Care Reform and we got a government take over.

Another thing, most people, regardless of party, don't vote on the promises, they vote for the party. Maybe you can blame them for that, but that is getting a bit petty in my opinion.

Immie

A system which giving the private insurance sector millions of captive consumers is a government takeover? That's pretty darn funny.

 

[Immanuel]

Isn't that sorta like saying he promised ice cream, but you can't say he delivered it because it's strawberry?

No, its like saying we all wanted Health Care Reform and we got a government take over.

Another thing, most people, regardless of party, don't vote on the promises, they vote for the party. Maybe you can blame them for that, but that is getting a bit petty in my opinion.

Immie

A system which giving the private insurance sector millions of captive consumers is a government takeover? That's pretty darn funny.

When you make that system into a puppet of the government it sure as hell is a government takeover.

And besides, this is only step one. President Obama has told us his intentions are to make all health care government run within twenty years. He's well on his way and ahead of schedule.

Immie

 

[Polk]

No, its like saying we all wanted Health Care Reform and we got a government take over.

Another thing, most people, regardless of party, don't vote on the promises, they vote for the party. Maybe you can blame them for that, but that is getting a bit petty in my opinion.

Immie

A system which giving the private insurance sector millions of captive consumers is a government takeover? That's pretty darn funny.

When you make that system into a puppet of the government it sure as hell is a government takeover.

And besides, this is only step one. President Obama has told us his intentions are to make all health care government run within twenty years. He's well on his way and ahead of schedule.

Immie

And now you're just making shit up.

 

[Immanuel]

A system which giving the private insurance sector millions of captive consumers is a government takeover? That's pretty darn funny.

When you make that system into a puppet of the government it sure as hell is a government takeover.

And besides, this is only step one. President Obama has told us his intentions are to make all health care government run within twenty years. He's well on his way and ahead of schedule.

Immie

And now you're just making shit up.

Oh really?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpAyan1fXCE]YouTube - Obama on single payer health insurance[/ame]

Obama in '07: Health Care Goal Is to Ultimately Eliminate Private Insurance | PoliJAM Blog

Making shit up? Did he or did he not say 20 years?

Immie

 

[Polk]

He never mentioned 20 years in the video. Also, if you'd have actually paid attention to all of his comments, instead of just hacking up a single small clip, he's said that he'd prefer a single-payer system if he was starting from scratch.

 

[Meister]

He never mentioned 20 years in the video. Also, if you'd have actually paid attention to all of his comments, instead of just hacking up a single small clip, he's said that he'd prefer a single-payer system if he was starting from scratch.

Polk I did hear Obama say he is in favor of a single payer plan and it may take 15-20 years to get it. I don't know why you can't be honest with that, if you are as informed as you claim to be.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Well I just want to know why you think all immigrants should be treated as potential terrorists and that we should assume those that hire illegals should be treated like they want to make terrorists cells.

Let's put this into the proper context. Nobody has said all immigrants in any context, except you.

What we are talking about here is illegal immigration. Illegal immigrants, by definition, are illegal. They are thumbing their noses at our laws, and a disproportionate percentage of prisoners in our prisons, especially in the border states, are illegals that committed worse crimes than crossing the border illegally.

I'm not saying they should be please. But please explain your rationale for why all illegal immigrants should not be treated as potential terrorists.

I meant all illegal immigrants, sorry.

They should not all be treated as potential terrorists because crossing the border (even illegally) is not a sign that they're terrorists. It's that simple.

Also I want a source that most people in prison in border states are illegals.

Why?

Who claimed that?

You're proving yourself a lying sack of shit again.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Also I want a source that most people in prison in border states are illegals.


The Illegal-Alien Crime Wave by Heather Mac Donald, City Journal Winter 2004

So far both your links come out of the same conservative think tank, interesting.

So far you've yet to point out any flaw in either one.

Interesting...

 

[Father Time]

Let's put this into the proper context. Nobody has said all immigrants in any context, except you.

What we are talking about here is illegal immigration. Illegal immigrants, by definition, are illegal. They are thumbing their noses at our laws, and a disproportionate percentage of prisoners in our prisons, especially in the border states, are illegals that committed worse crimes than crossing the border illegally.

I'm not saying they should be please. But please explain your rationale for why all illegal immigrants should not be treated as potential terrorists.

I meant all illegal immigrants, sorry.

They should not all be treated as potential terrorists because crossing the border (even illegally) is not a sign that they're terrorists. It's that simple.

Also I want a source that most people in prison in border states are illegals.

Why?

Who claimed that?

You're proving yourself a lying sack of shit again.

Try reading other people's posts

What we are talking about here is illegal immigration. Illegal immigrants, by definition, are illegal. They are thumbing their noses at our laws, and a disproportionate percentage of prisoners in our prisons, especially in the border states, are illegals that committed worse crimes than crossing the border illegally.

So it's technically not most as in >50% but close enough.

 

[Father Time]

Also I want a source that most people in prison in border states are illegals.


The Illegal-Alien Crime Wave by Heather Mac Donald, City Journal Winter 2004

So far both your links come out of the same conservative think tank, interesting.

So far you've yet to point out any flaw in either one.

Interesting...

The one Angel hair quoted for instance all they have is their word, no other sources, and I'm not going to trust a think tank on their word alone.