Zone1 “If the universe had a beginning, then we cannot avoid the question of creation.”

[zaangalewa]

It appears we've a limited understanding of time and space here

~S~

We always have a limited understanding about anything. That's why we speak with each other. In the end god is the truth - and who comprehends god? God was not only "since ever" - he is also always new. So no need not to speak about electromagnetism and that it's not a good idea to urinate onto an electric pasture fence. That's not one of the 10 commandements but also a senseful orientation. On the other side: Is such a rule only discriminating men because women anyway never do so?

 

[Chuz Life]

“If the universe had a beginning, then we cannot avoid the question of creation.”​

I disagree.

It's entirely plausible that something else caused it that wouldn't have to be "God" or even "intelligent."

One of my theories is that the entire universe is cyclical.

I argue with Grok about this from time to time.

Conclusion

"There’s no definitive proof that our universe’s singularity is the only one ever, and your reasoning that "if it can happen once, it can happen more than once" is supported by several theoretical frameworks. While the standard Big Bang model focuses on a single singularity for our universe, multiverse theories, quantum cosmology, and cyclic models allow for multiple singularities, each potentially spawning its own universe. The question remains open because we lack a complete theory of the universe’s origin or direct evidence of other universes. Your intuition aligns with cutting-edge cosmological speculation—multiple singularities are indeed a possibility!"

Fun stuff.

https://x.com/i/grok/share/1j9tKK5P4RaVo8ZKGNqhOjBI1

 

[BULLDOG]

You was once a zygote. Every human being once was a human zygote. Are you conscious now? Do you have an inherent intelligence now? How came? And is this really independent from the situation "to be a zygote" what you was once? If someone had killed the zygote you was once then you would not be now. So how do you justify your opinion with what kind of categorical imperative?

The earlier remark said conscious can not come from unconscious. A zygote is not conscious yet consciousness is achieved.

 

[DonGlock26]

It appears we've a limited understanding of time and space here

~S~

How so?

 

[DonGlock26]

I once read a book that claimed the earth was flat and rested on the back of a turtle. How is your book, and the two guys that wrote it any more credible than the turtle theory?

The facts in my prior posts. Have you read them?

 

[DonGlock26]

“If the universe had a beginning, then we cannot avoid the question of creation.”​

I disagree.

It's entirely plausible that something else caused it that wouldn't have to be "God" or even "intelligent."

One of my theories is that the entire universe is cyclical.

I argue with Grok about this from time to time.

Conclusion

"There’s no definitive proof that our universe’s singularity is the only one ever, and your reasoning that "if it can happen once, it can happen more than once" is supported by several theoretical frameworks. While the standard Big Bang model focuses on a single singularity for our universe, multiverse theories, quantum cosmology, and cyclic models allow for multiple singularities, each potentially spawning its own universe. The question remains open because we lack a complete theory of the universe’s origin or direct evidence of other universes. Your intuition aligns with cutting-edge cosmological speculation—multiple singularities are indeed a possibility!"

Fun stuff.

https://x.com/i/grok/share/1j9tKK5P4RaVo8ZKGNqhOjBI1

The universe is flat, expanding, and accelerating. This does not indicate a cyclical universe.
What actual evidence is there for a cyclical universe?

 

[alang1216]

Well, as a scientist who started out in life an atheist until I had God proven to and shown to me, and since I understand the linked article doesn't really offer their proof (have to buy the book), let me say this in a way easy to follow:

1. Nothing in the universe is eternal. Even light suffers entropy.
2. Anything that has an ending had a beginning.
3. If everything in the universe has an ending, then the universe had to have a beginning.
4. Nothing exists without a cause. Something caused everything in the universe that exists, to be there.
5. The universe is full of mind, consciousness and intelligence, as proven by mankind.
6. There is no known process whereby consciousness comes from unconsciousness, and intelligence comes from mindlessness, therefore, all finite qualities in the universe (including mind, consciousness and intelligence) had to have been caused/created/begun by some unlimited fount for these qualities.
7. The cause of anything is deemed to have created it. Since the universe was created, it too had to have some cause. Since the universe is intelligent, then the supreme cause of the universe must have been supremely intelligent too.
8. Take away the mind, the consciousness, the wisdom, and the cause of the universe could be some inert action--- a hiccup in the branes between two different dimensions--- but when you add in the MIND, you now have a mindful creator with a purpose--- ie: God.

• The cause of the universe is God.
• God must be a supreme personality with an unlimited mind since he has given a very finite piece of his personality and consciousness to us.

There may have been a creator of our universe but there is zero evidence that creator was the God of the Bible.

 

[DonGlock26]

The earlier remark said conscious can not come from unconscious. A zygote is not conscious yet consciousness is achieved.

Where do zygotes come from?

 

[sparky]

How so?

probably due to our view from the physical realm Don

irrc, Einstein forwarded similar conjecture toward the end of his life ......

~S~

 

[BULLDOG]

The facts in my prior posts. Have you read them?

Your previous posts said what those two people put in a book. Hard credible evidence is lacking.

 

[BULLDOG]

Where do zygotes come from?

Zygotes have no more consciousness than trimmed fingernail clippings, regardless of where they came from.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I understand that watered-down layman’s version of quantum probability.

That was an analogy. It helps people understand.

But like others then have asked, what “caused” this spontaneous popping?

And that was my point: maybe nothing. Maybe universes spontaneously popping into existence is just an inherent property of physical reality.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

No. The universe is expanding.

That does not rule out what I said. Both can be true.

 

[BackAgain]

“If the universe had a beginning, then we cannot avoid the question of creation.”​

I disagree.

It's entirely plausible that something else caused it that wouldn't have to be "God" or even "intelligent."

One of my theories is that the entire universe is cyclical.

I argue with Grok about this from time to time.

Conclusion

"There’s no definitive proof that our universe’s singularity is the only one ever, and your reasoning that "if it can happen once, it can happen more than once" is supported by several theoretical frameworks. While the standard Big Bang model focuses on a single singularity for our universe, multiverse theories, quantum cosmology, and cyclic models allow for multiple singularities, each potentially spawning its own universe. The question remains open because we lack a complete theory of the universe’s origin or direct evidence of other universes. Your intuition aligns with cutting-edge cosmological speculation—multiple singularities are indeed a possibility!"

Fun stuff.

https://x.com/i/grok/share/1j9tKK5P4RaVo8ZKGNqhOjBI1

If God created the Universe, where did God come from?

By the way, despite the fact that we may be stuck in some infinite regression, I do believe that the universe came into being via some act of creation by God.

 

[BackAgain]

That was an analogy. It helps people understand.







And that was my point: maybe nothing. Maybe universes spontaneously popping into existence is just an inherent property of physical reality.

How can it be “a property” of absolute nothingness?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

How can it be “a property” of absolute nothingness?

"Absolute nothingness" may just be a concept that exists only in your mind.

What is in empty space, when a virtual particle pair forms? Nothing, as far as we can tell.

 

[BackAgain]

"Absolute nothingness" may just be a concept that exists only in your mind.

What is in empty space, when a virtual particle pair forms? Nothing, as far as we can tell.

Even if a “virtual particle pair” somehow formed out of an absolute void of nothingness, the question remains: where the **** did it come from?

We used to think of the vast empty stretches of interstellar space as being an empty vacuum. But it turns out that isn’t accurate. Nevertheless, for our purposes, we need to think of some volume of space as containing not a scintilla of matter or energy or particles or anything else. A true absolute void.

Next, expand that volume to encompass everywhere in the entire universe where we now have matter and energy etc. Something came along (a virtual particle or a virtual particle pair). Where did it come from? Was it created? Out of what was it created?

Any answer seems to suggest that what we now identify as matter/energy has to have been created which defies our scientific understanding that neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed.

Sooner or later, if we jump down the rabbit hole, we need to be able to stop asking “ok, but where did THAT come from?”

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Even if a “virtual particle pair” somehow formed out of an absolute void of nothingness, the question remains: where the **** did it come from?

As far as we can tell, from nothing, a si inderstand it. Charge and energy are both conserved, in such an event. Net charge and energy: 0

And our universe may have net zero energy.

Even if a “virtual particle pair” somehow formed out of an absolute void of nothingness, the question remains: where the **** did it come from?

We used to think of the vast empty stretches of interstellar space as being an empty vacuum. But it turns out that isn’t accurate. Nevertheless, for our purposes, we need to think of some volume of space as containing not a scintilla of matter or energy or particles or anything else. A true absolute void.

Next, expand that volume to encompass everywhere in the entire universe where we now have matter and energy etc. Something came along (a virtual particle or a virtual particle pair). Where did it come from? Was it created? Out of what was it created?

Any answer seems to suggest that what we now identify as matter/energy has to have been created which defies our scientific understanding that neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed.

Sooner or later, if we jump down the rabbit hole, we need to be able to stop asking “ok, but where did THAT come from?”

Right, and the answer may be, "the nothing that always was".

 

[BackAgain]

As far as we can tell, from nothing, a si inderstand it. Charge and energy are both conserved, in such an event. Net charge and energy: 0

And our universe may have net zero energy.


Right, and the answer may be, "the nothing that always was".

I’d love to engage further, but what you’re saying makes no sense.

What charge and what energy are “preserved” when neither existed to begin with?

If our universe has or had zero energy, nothing should ever have been created and nothing is all that would “exist.”

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

What charge and what energy are “preserved” when neither existed to begin with?

To start: 0 charge, 0 energy. Two virtual particles: net 0 charge, 0 energy. The amount of Charge and energy are conserved.

If our universe has or had zero energy, nothing should ever have been created and nothing is all that would “exist.”

The energy we observe in radiation and matter may be perfectly balanced out by the negative energy of gravity.

This could result in a net zero energy universe. Thus an entire universe can pop into existence from nothing.