Zone1 If Jesus Was A Jew

[Carl in Michigan]

Then why aren't Christians Jewish? I don't get it.

"Jew" is an ethnicity. They are of the Tribe of Judah
Judaism is a religion.
Jesus was a Jew descended from king David.

Modern "Christians" practice a bastardized version of what the Jerusalem Church of God taught. Jesus and the apostles wouldn't recognize modern pagan Christianity

 

[Woodznutz]

Before Ezra and Nehemiah there was no "Jewish" religion. The Levites were the priests over all of Israel. The Levites remained with Judah when God divided Israel into two kingdoms. Jeroboam set up illegitimate priests, but the people still knew of the prophesied messiah, and when Jesus arrived on the scene, they knew immediately who he was. Some Jewish rabbis also knew. While the Jews kept the Law they corrupted the meaning of the high days by inventing 'traditions', removing any suggestion of a suffering messiah.

Regarding 'original sin', God allowed Eve and Adam access to the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Doing so God also allowed Satan to influence mankind, however he withheld his Holy Spirit from mankind until the death of Jesus and the founding of the church. So, with the free will of deciding what is good and what is evil, coupled with the influence of Satan, mankind has tended towards evil from the beginning. And while goodness is also intrinsic in man, as a necessary survival device, evil still prevails.

 

[Woodznutz]

Well technically we are part Jewish. The Old Testament is basically the Jewish belief system.

The Old Testament is the history of Israel, not the Jews.

 

[Woodznutz]

"Jew" is an ethnicity. They are of the Tribe of Judah
Judaism is a religion.
Jesus was a Jew descended from king David.

Modern "Christians" practice a bastardized version of what the Jerusalem Church of God taught. Jesus and the apostles wouldn't recognize modern pagan Christianity

Jesus assured that the 'gates of hell' would not prevail against his church. So, there's that.

 

[Lisa558]

I'm interested in perceptions of the first disobedience to God that occurred in the Garden of Eden that was the cause of Adam and Eve leaving. Is it the Jewish perception that this disobedience wasn't a big deal, life would go on, and God didn't really care one way or the other if the two had obeyed or disobeyed. Nor did He care--nor does He care--whether the descendants of Adam and Eve are obedient or disobedient. It's just doesn't matter all that much, and no one needs any help/direction from God in the choices they make on how to live life here on Earth.

You have it all wrong. OF COURSE it was a big deal, and that’s why Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden.

But you are still tying Adam and Eve’s sin to their descendants - as if someone else’s failings will mark their grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren. You are trying to integrate the Christian concept of Original Sin into Jewish teachings.

Also, I cannot believe you even question whether the Jewish religion teaches us that Gd doesn’t care if we are disobedient or not (what do you think the entire concept of atonement and teshuvah is about?) or that we don’t need Gd’s help or direction in making choice (what do you think our 613 commandments are for)?

You’ve always been respectful of the Jewish religion up until now, but your implication - or at least question - that Jews can be disobedient and Gd doesn’t care, or that Jews can do whatever we want without Gd’s help or direction, is not coming across very respectfully.

 

[Lisa558]

The Old Testament is the history of Israel, not the Jews.

Not it’s not. That is just your inability to separate Jews and Israel. There is much in the OT that happens outside of Israel.

 

[Woodznutz]

DakotaKai,

I guess you have to read it.

 

[Woodznutz]

Not it’s not. That is just your inability to separate Jews and Israel. There is much in the OT that happens outside of Israel.

God separated Israel and the Jews in the days of Rehoboam and Jeroboam (no doubt to prepare a people for the coming of Christ). Before that Israel was united and little was written that didn't involve Israel or one or more of the tribes or the progenitors of the tribes.

 

[Meriweather]

You have it all wrong. OF COURSE it was a big deal, and that’s why Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden.

But you are still tying Adam and Eve’s sin to their descendants - as if someone else’s failings will mark their grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren. You are trying to integrate the Christian concept of Original Sin into Jewish teachings.

Also, I cannot believe you even question whether the Jewish religion teaches us that Gd doesn’t care if we are disobedient or not (what do you think the entire concept of atonement and teshuvah is about?) or that we don’t need Gd’s help or direction in making choice (what do you think our 613 commandments are for)?

You’ve always been respectful of the Jewish religion up until now, but your implication - or at least question - that Jews can be disobedient and Gd doesn’t care, or that Jews can do whatever we want without Gd’s help or direction, is not coming across very respectfully.

I was merely curious because I didn't have a clue. Never mind.

 

[Meriweather]

No. The act by Eve and Adam was a very big deal. God did and does care and guides us, daily, to do the right thing.

It is the same in Christianity, that it begins the story of mankind and relates that it was Adam and Eve's decision to know both Good and Evil that brought about that trait of disobedience to God in their children and all of mankind. Apparently knowledge of both good and evil made a difference in all human behavior?

 

[Lisa558]

God separated Israel and the Jews in the days of Rehoboam and Jeroboam (no doubt to prepare a people for the coming of Christ). Before that Israel was united and little was written that didn't involve Israel or one or more of the tribes or the progenitors of the tribes.

Nope…..

…and stop telling a Jewish woman that Gd was preparing people for “coming of Christ.” There is no such thing from the Jewish perspective, and you know it.

Gd specifically said he was ONE.

 

[Woodznutz]

Nope…..

…and stop telling a Jewish woman that Gd was preparing people for “coming of Christ.” There is no such thing from the Jewish perspective, and you know it.

Gd specifically said he was ONE.

Why do you think God separated the Jews from the rest of Israel (or vice versa)?

 

[Lisa558]

I was merely curious because I didn't have a clue. Never mind.

You could have phrased it better. You actually asked if Jews are taught that Gd doesn’t care if they are disobedient and don’t need His guidance or help to make proper choices.

Again, we are guided by 613 mitzvot.

 

[Lisa558]

Why do you think God separated the Jews from the rest of Israel (or vice versa)?

You mean why were Jews exiled at various points in history? That started long before Jesus was born. And it was because Jews had not met Gd’s expectations. But He guides us and helps all of us in the Diaspora, and we have been blessed in many ways.

 

[Woodznutz]

You mean why were Jews exiled at various points in history? That started long before Jesus was born. And it was because Jews had not met Gd’s expectations. But He guides us and helps all of us in the Diaspora, and we have been blessed in many ways.

Not the question. God divided Israel in the days of Rehoboam and Jeroboam. Why do you think he did that?

 

[rosends]

It is the same in Christianity, that it begins the story of mankind and relates that it was Adam and Eve's decision to know both Good and Evil that brought about that trait of disobedience to God in their children and all of mankind. Apparently knowledge of both good and evil made a difference in all human behavior?

it brought about the idea of free choice and the change from evil's being an external temptation to having it be internalized into man's nature.

 

[irosie91]

Before Ezra and Nehemiah there was no "Jewish" religion. The Levites were the priests over all of Israel. The Levites remained with Judah when God divided Israel into two kingdoms. Jeroboam set up illegitimate priests, but the people still knew of the prophesied messiah, and when Jesus arrived on the scene, they knew immediately who he was. Some Jewish rabbis also knew. While the Jews kept the Law they corrupted the meaning of the high days by inventing 'traditions', removing any suggestion of a suffering messiah.

Regarding 'original sin', God allowed Eve and Adam access to the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Doing so God also allowed Satan to influence mankind, however he withheld his Holy Spirit from mankind until the death of Jesus and the founding of the church. So, with the free will of deciding what is good and what is evil, coupled with the influence of Satan, mankind has tended towards evil from the beginning. And while goodness is also intrinsic in man, as a necessary survival device, evil still prevails.

Mr. Nutz----I am your friendly levite-----give up trying to demonstrate a
grasp of Jewish history or a grasp of its scriptural literature.

 

[irosie91]

Actually, it would not be blasphemy under Jewish law. The Jewish texts also mention God's right hand. Does that mean that you think that normative Jewish thought says God has hands?

And I think I have a better sense of the mind of a Jew at that time than you do, so I'll stick with my learning over your supposition.

Have some compassion----remember scriptural writing exists in POETIC "prose" ----"I think that I shall never see----a Poem as lovely as a tree..." joyce kilmer -------"a tree that wear a nest of robins in its hair"-----joyce------
lots of symbolism that MAKES NO SENSE LITERALLY

 

[Lisa558]

Mr. Nutz----I am your friendly levite-----give up trying to demonstrate a
grasp of Jewish history or a grasp of its scriptural literature.

It’s interesting how Christian’s become enraged if we dare say something that indicates we do not believe Jesus was anything other than a man, and yet so many of them feel quite comfortable explaining Jewish history and tenets to us.

 

[Meriweather]

it brought about the idea of free choice and the change from evil's being an external temptation to having it be internalized into man's nature.

This being internalized into mankind's nature, then it makes sense that we want to make things right with God and God, of course, wants to make things right with us? What I find captivating is that God permits people to experience the slavery of sin. He begins the Ten Commandments with, I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of slavery...

Mostly from the atheists in my family and circle of friends, the Ten Commandments are regarded as rules that imprison. I see it differently, that disobedience to God led to imprisonment/enslavement, and one of God's first teachings, one of His first rescue missions is following His ways frees one from enslavement. Disobedience/sin enslaves; obedience is freedom, often pure freedom.

How do Jews view the Ten Commandments? I know the Noachide precede the Ten, and I am also curious how these are viewed compared to the Ten?