Zone1 If God Is All Powerful, All Knowing, and All Loving, Then Why Didn't He Create Us To Be Perfect Like Himself

[SweetSue92]

So then you just assume I am angry at my parents because I don't believe in your god. What is that other than pseudo- psychology?

If I don't think the god of the bible is real and that IF there are gods that they have nothing in common with this man made interpretation of human religions it's pretty hard for me to think of the god you believe in as a parental substitute.

But it's always the same assumptions. I don't go for the Abrahamic gods so I must be angry and resentful of my parents.

I don't assume anything; you had said as much here. And yes, I assume it's anger that fuels the fact that you're here, asserting over and over and over and over and over what you do not believe. SOMEthing fuels that. For instance, I don't believe in Islam. I also do not care, so I don't spend much if any time telling Muslims I don't believe Mohammed. Etc.

 

[Blues Man]

I don't assume anything; you had said as much here. And yes, I assume it's anger that fuels the fact that you're here, asserting over and over and over and over and over what you do not believe. SOMEthing fuels that. For instance, I don't believe in Islam. I also do not care, so I don't spend much if any time telling Muslims I don't believe Mohammed. Etc.

Really? I said I was angry at my parents ?

My childhood was not good but you think I can't let that go? That I must still be harboring anger and resentment for what happened to me 40 years ago because I didn't embrace your god.

And why is my life philosophy invalid? Do I not have the right to offer my view points? You all have no problem offering yours.

Because I use examples from the bible as to why I find it contradictory is a problem right?

No one can question your faith unless it comes from some deep rooted psychological problem.

I argue here as mostly a sounding board for ideas I write about and to get reactions and one that comes up a lot is the pseudo psych 101 you just used.

 

[SweetSue92]

Really? I said I was angry at my parents ?

My childhood was not good but you think I can't let that go? That I must still be harboring anger and resentment for what happened to me 40 years ago because I didn't embrace your god.

And why is my life philosophy invalid? Do I not have the right to offer my view points? You all have no problem offering yours.

Because I use examples from the bible as to why I find it contradictory is a problem right?

No one can question your faith unless it comes from some deep rooted psychological problem.

I argue here as mostly a sounding board for ideas I write about and to get reactions and one that comes up a lot is the pseudo psych 101 you just used.

No one "lets their childhood go"--we can certainly overcome it though, and it seems like you certainly have. But it absolutely colors how we see the world. That's why so many people who had terrible fathers have a difficult time understanding a loving, just Father. I'm not even saying there's anything wrong with that. I think it's wholly understandable.

And I never said no one can question my faith. ? Questioning is often, maybe usually, a byproduct of a sound mind. I have no problem with that and neither does God, for the most part. I do find it odd when people who have rejected Him are still fixated though, for the reasons I posted in my last response.

 

[Blues Man]

No one "lets their childhood go"--we can certainly overcome it though, and it seems like you certainly have. But it absolutely colors how we see the world. That's why so many people who had terrible fathers have a difficult time understanding a loving, just Father. I'm not even saying there's anything wrong with that. I think it's wholly understandable.

And I never said no one can question my faith. ? Questioning is often, maybe usually, a byproduct of a sound mind. I have no problem with that and neither does God, for the most part. I do find it odd when people who have rejected Him are still fixated though, for the reasons I posted in my last response.

That's where you're wrong.

Anyone can let go of their past.

Anyone can live totally in the present without carrying the past or worrying about the future. When you do either of those you are not living your best life and therefore you can never be the best person you can be.

 

[onefour1]

Making us smarter, stronger, faster and could see better wouldn't mean we were perfect. Perfect is impossible. If he's a god, he could have made us better. Which tells me what made us isn't a god at all.

If we were his chosen species we'd be the strongest thing on land. Not bear.

Do you really think that if there was a war between Man an Bear that the bears would win?

I heard this on a show once. Why would god make a beautiful flower but hide a poisonous snake behind it? Then it dawned on me. This world wasn't made for us.

Mankind, as a superior intelligence has dominated this world through out history. If God wanted man to experience good and evil and learn to prize the good over the evil, He might just put a snake in the world to tempt us and learn to be strong against temptation as we learn to choose the right.

 

[onefour1]

So, right, God put us on the Earth for a short time to learn good from evil. Does God know good from evil? The guy who committed MASS GENOCIDE knows the difference? Like putting Hitler and Stalin in charge of the UN Human Rights body, isn't it?

Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Yes, God knows all things and thus he knows good and evil. He is allowing mankind to also have that knowledge. Your condemnation of God may lead to your own damnation.

 

[onefour1]

How do you know your interpretation is the correct one?

It is what makes the most sense to me.

That's the problem with the bible and IMO what proves it was all made up by men, it's far too complicated. People have a penchant for over complicating simple ideas.

And you have what makes sense to you. That is why I come on this messageboard. I can compare my ideas with others and test them against other people's logic.

 

[Batcat]

If God has the power to do anything imaginable and knows all things, certainly He would have the power to make us to be exactly like himself. Certainly He would know how to make us perfect like himself, and if He truly loves us, then he would certainly make us to be the best we could be. So why did God create us as imperfect sinful beings instead of perfect beings just like himself?

Some have answered this by saying that God gave us free will and because of this mankind has chosen to be imperfect. However, this does not really answer the dilemma. If God created us to be perfect like Himself, then we would make perfect choices given that we are created to be perfect even as God is perfect. Does God have free will? Does God make bad choices?

As a Christian, how would you respond to this problem of imperfect and evil?

By giving us free will, God created us to be interesting and entertaining, not boring.

 

[onefour1]

It's not just your actions that are sinful.

Thought crimes were invented by the god of the bible. Tell me are you in 100% control of all the thoughts that arise unbidden in your mind?

True, Jesus taught that if you look upon a woman to lust after her, you have committed adultery in your heart.

Perfection comes when you have control over evil thoughts. If you learn to hate the things that are evil, you can learn to refuse to think or dwell upon them. I have not reached a state of perfection in all things but I have seen progress in my life in working toward eliminating certain thoughts from my mind. An easy thought in llife, at least for me, is not harming others by way of physical harm. I do not like to be harmed by others and I have learned to not like to see others harmed. I don't dwell upon such things and I certainly do not indulge in such a practice. I think by learning to detest evil is a way to eliminate such thoughts from your mind and thus help to rid yourself of sin. Another thing that helps is to fill you mind with, and learn to love the things that are good. I think people tend to enjoy thinking about the things that they love and enjoy. By doing these things I think that man can shape his own character and overcome sin and thoughts of sin.

 

[onefour1]

Do you tell your children they must be perfect?

I do teach my children that the Lord teaches us to become perfect even as our Father in Heaven is perfect and that it must be possible if the Lord commands it.

 

[onefour1]

Onefour is a Mormon. He believes he is saved by God "after all he can do". Joseph Smith tried to usurp God. That turns out poorly.

Yes, we believe that even after all we can do in this life, we still need the grace of God in order to be saved. That is the meaning of the verse from the Book of Mormon. Some like to twist this to mean that we believe we must do absolutely all we can do before God will save us with his grace. There are an army of individual who go through are scriptures in an attempt to find fault with our beliefs.

2 Nephi 25:23
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

The verse is not telling us that we must do everything, it is simply stating that we cannot be saved by our own works. Even if we could do all that we could do, this verse is telling us that we would still need to rely on Jesus Christ for our salvation.

 

[onefour1]

Batcat said:
By giving us free will, God created us to be interesting and entertaining, not boring.

I agree. I do believe that God, if he could have made us perfect, would have taken away our fee will. If God could have made us perfect, He would have given us free will just as I believe God himself has free will. God simply uses his perfect knowledge and wisdom and understanding to make perfect choices. If God had the ability to create us with a perfect knowledge, wisdom, and understanding along with free will, we would be able to make the same choices that God would make using our own free will. But as I've explained in other posts, I do not believe that God had the ability to make us perfect. I believe God has created us from self-existing intelligence and matter and because our intelligence was self-existing, God could not have created it and thus could not have created it to be perfect. I get this from the revelations from the Prophet Joseph Smith as follows:

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Abraham 3:18
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

Gnolaum is a transliteration of a Hebrew word meaning eternal.

 

[SweetSue92]

Yes, we believe that even after all we can do in this life, we still need the grace of God in order to be saved. That is the meaning of the verse from the Book of Mormon. Some like to twist this to mean that we believe we must do absolutely all we can do before God will save us with his grace. There are an army of individual who go through are scriptures in an attempt to find fault with our beliefs.

2 Nephi 25:23
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

The verse is not telling us that we must do everything, it is simply stating that we cannot be saved by our own works. Even if we could do all that we could do, this verse is telling us that we would still need to rely on Jesus Christ for our salvation.

That is exactly what the verse says. In plain language. "After all we can do", God's grace enters in.

 

[onefour1]

That is exactly what the verse says. In plain language. "After all we can do", God's grace enters in.

2 Nephi 25:23
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

The verse is saying that we are saved by grace even after anything we can do. It is you that is imply that the meaning is that we need to do absolutely everything possible before God will save us with his grace. Do you think that any living creature believes that they can do absolutely everything possible to do that can be done before grace will come upon them? You claim that this is what members of my church believe because you falsely interpret the meaning of a verse and then make an accusation. Nobody of our church buys your definition of this verse. Only those who hate our church and members. We interpret this verse to imply that all that man can do in insufficient for salvation and thus we all need the grace of God even after all we can do. In other words, if we don't do all we can do, we still need the grace of God, and even if we could do all that man could do, we would still need the grace of God. We do not teach our members that they must do absolutely anything that is possible to do before God will grant them grace.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Yes, God knows all things and thus he knows good and evil. He is allowing mankind to also have that knowledge. Your condemnation of God may lead to your own damnation.

So, would you say killing most people and most animals is good or evil?

Oh no, me saying God is a genocidal maniac might have me damned by a GENOCIDAL MANIAC.... What's he going to do? Kill me once I'm dead? Oh, scary.

 

[onefour1]

So, would you say killing most people and most animals is good or evil?

God, being the creator of this world and mankind and the overseer of how he wants the world to progress has given a commandment to mankind to not kill their fellow humans. However, he has given mankind free will to also do as they please. Man can kill man if he so wishes. Capital punishment is even a man made solution to rid our societies of extreme wickedness and evil. God, as a perfectly knowledgeable and wise God with a perfect understanding of what is right and wrong, has determined to instigate capital punishment of the extreme wicked of this world and you look upon that as an act of a genocidal maniac. Can you imagine living in a society where many of them are ok with murdering, robbing, and doing evil to their fellow man? You would scream for justice and law to punish those who commit such acts. God has told us that in the days of Noah the earth was filled with violence.

Genesis 6:11-13
11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

God, in order to raise a righteous people on the earth likely needed to execute capital punishment and rid the world of extreme violence. God is the ultimate authority over the earth. He is the ultimate governing body over all of us. As God, He has the right to execute a just judgment on us. Man, who is not all knowing and does not have all wisdom and understanding may sit back and point the finger at God and blame him for the things he does as being unjust and genocidal just shows how arrogant and lacking in knowledge they really are. Noah and his family were probably thankful to God for cleansing the earth and making it possible for righteousness to reign again on earth. In my mind I see pointing the finger at God and not the violent criminals is absurd.

As I have stated before, this life is really only a temporary existence in the eyes of God and all mankind and animals will again live within a body that is made immortal and will live forever and ever. God's punishment upon the wicked is not permanent but a just measure upon those who seek to make this temporal existence a hell for those others whom come here to have a more just and fair existence.

Oh no, me saying God is a genocidal maniac might have me damned by a GENOCIDAL MANIAC.... What's he going to do? Kill me once I'm dead? Oh, scary.

No, He will likely not punish you with mortal death for not believing in Him and calling him a Genocidal Maniac. What He might do is say to you that He cannot allow you into the kingdom of heaven because you have no respect for his justice nor his laws and thus you are not capable of living the law of the kingdom of heaven. You would then be placed into a kingdom where you are willing to abide by the law of a lower kingdom.

 

[frigidweirdo]

God, being the creator of this world and mankind and the overseer of how he wants the world to progress has given a commandment to mankind to not kill their fellow humans. However, he has given mankind free will to also do as they please. Man can kill man if he so wishes. Capital punishment is even a man made solution to rid our societies of extreme wickedness and evil. God, as a perfectly knowledgeable and wise God with a perfect understanding of what is right and wrong, has determined to instigate capital punishment of the extreme wicked of this world and you look upon that as an act of a genocidal maniac. Can you imagine living in a society where many of them are ok with murdering, robbing, and doing evil to their fellow man? You would scream for justice and law to punish those who commit such acts. God has told us that in the days of Noah the earth was filled with violence.

Genesis 6:11-13
11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

God, in order to raise a righteous people on the earth likely needed to execute capital punishment and rid the world of extreme violence. God is the ultimate authority over the earth. He is the ultimate governing body over all of us. As God, He has the right to execute a just judgment on us. Man, who is not all knowing and does not have all wisdom and understanding may sit back and point the finger at God and blame him for the things he does as being unjust and genocidal just shows how arrogant and lacking in knowledge they really are. Noah and his family were probably thankful to God for cleansing the earth and making it possible for righteousness to reign again on earth. In my mind I see pointing the finger at God and not the violent criminals is absurd.

As I have stated before, this life is really only a temporary existence in the eyes of God and all mankind and animals will again live within a body that is made immortal and will live forever and ever. God's punishment upon the wicked is not permanent but a just measure upon those who seek to make this temporal existence a hell for those others whom come here to have a more just and fair existence.

No, He will likely not punish you with mortal death for not believing in Him and calling him a Genocidal Maniac. What He might do is say to you that He cannot allow you into the kingdom of heaven because you have no respect for his justice nor his laws and thus you are not capable of living the law of the kingdom of heaven. You would then be placed into a kingdom where you are willing to abide by the law of a lower kingdom.

So, a do as I say, not as I do then?

And, don't kill, but kill if you want to get rid of "evil", so if you kill, you're good, obviously, whereas others are evil because... they're not you. So, have fun killing in God's image???

Yeah, the world was full of violence in Noah's day, and then Hitler and Stalin came along, and God's like "Can't be bother mate, I did genocide last time, and then they inbred all the time and ended up with Hitler, so, I've got my popcorn and I'm going to enjoy the show."

 

[SweetSue92]

That's where you're wrong.

Anyone can let go of their past.

Anyone can live totally in the present without carrying the past or worrying about the future. When you do either of those you are not living your best life and therefore you can never be the best person you can be.

If I lived in your present....yeesh. Your present says we were created by nothing, for nothing, with nothing in the future. Here we are on a random floating rock on the outpost of some suburban galaxy, destined for eventual heat-death. For no reason at all we are conscious and aware of all of this.

It's absurd; it's laughable; it's tragic.

 

[SweetSue92]

2 Nephi 25:23
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

The verse is saying that we are saved by grace even after anything we can do. It is you that is imply that the meaning is that we need to do absolutely everything possible before God will save us with his grace. Do you think that any living creature believes that they can do absolutely everything possible to do that can be done before grace will come upon them? You claim that this is what members of my church believe because you falsely interpret the meaning of a verse and then make an accusation. Nobody of our church buys your definition of this verse. Only those who hate our church and members. We interpret this verse to imply that all that man can do in insufficient for salvation and thus we all need the grace of God even after all we can do. In other words, if we don't do all we can do, we still need the grace of God, and even if we could do all that man could do, we would still need the grace of God. We do not teach our members that they must do absolutely anything that is possible to do before God will grant them grace.

Well then there is this:

Moroni 10:32: “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ”

 

[Blues Man]

It is what makes the most sense to me.

And you have what makes sense to you. That is why I come on this messageboard. I can compare my ideas with others and test them against other people's logic.

It makes the most sense to me that the bible is just a book of Iron Age philosophy