Identical twins, one gay, one ain't

[Coloradomtnman]

Meh .. lots of people don't, you just haven't met any yet.

You just don't know! You don't even know!

I even persuaded my girlfriend, who used to hate Clint. Then she saw Gran Torino with me when it came out, and converted. C'mon! Nobody can squint like Clint!

 

[KittenKoder]

Meh .. lots of people don't, you just haven't met any yet.

You just don't know! You don't even know!

I even persuaded my girlfriend, who used to hate Clint. Then she saw Gran Torino with me when it came out, and converted. C'mon! Nobody can squint like Clint!

Wouldn't work with me, my dad was a huge fan for a short time so I've seen almost everything he did prior to 1990. I just don't like the rugged look myself. I prefer men like Marylin Manson ... androgeny is where it's at.

 

[glockmail]

Still ... not denying it ... just come right out and say you fantasize about man love with Clint and get it over with.

Argumentum ad hominem; Argumentum ad ignorantiam; Argumentum ad nauseam

And again, why is it that liberals use "gay" as an insult?

 

[KittenKoder]

Still ... not denying it ... just come right out and say you fantasize about man love with Clint and get it over with.

Argumentum ad hominem; Argumentum ad ignorantiam; Argumentum ad nauseam

And again, why is it that liberals use "gay" as an insult?

*smirks* Why is it people in denial assume it's an insult?

 

[Valerie]

My questions and comments were relevant to the OP, but okay.

Let me ask you this, glockmail. Do you have a preference in women? A certain "type" that you're attracted to? I'm not talking just about physicality, but personalty too. Assuming yes, do you think you consciously chose to have such a preference or it was just some natural instinct you found yourself responding to?

Please point out to me how cuz I'm not seeing it.

Although I can see that you are bound and determined to derail this....

My "type" is tall or short, black, brown, yellow or white, average to well above average intelligence, perky to cerebral..... Seriously, throughout my life I've found many, many different "types" of woman to be attractive. The ones that paid attention are the ones that I went out with. I think most guys are like that.

I appreciate your response because I'd really like to get you to see my points. You asked how could it be possible for one twin to be homosexual if there is a genetic component to sexuality and I gave several examples of other differences in twins. Twins are unique individuals with unique tendencies and preferences, so how is that not relevant?

One twin likes chocolate and the other likes vanilla, so what are you getting at? That's my honest response to your thread. Individuals have natural tendencies toward lots of things. That's my whole point. Your personal observations regarding these twins you know neither proves nor disprove whether or not sexual preference has a genetic component. As Abelian Sea said, your "scientific" evidence is isolated and anecdotal.

I didn't know your politics on this subject, but I guess I do now.

 

[glockmail]

I appreciate your response because I'd really like to get you to see my points. You asked how could it be possible for one twin to be homosexual if there is a genetic component to sexuality and I gave several examples of other differences in twins. Twins are unique individuals with unique tendencies and preferences, so how is that not relevant?

One twin likes chocolate and the other likes vanilla, so what are you getting at? That's my honest response to your thread. Individuals have natural tendencies toward lots of things. That's my whole point. Your personal observations regarding these twins you know neither proves nor disprove whether or not sexual preference has a genetic component. As Abelian Sea said, your "scientific" evidence is isolated and anecdotal.

I didn't know your politics on this subject, but I guess I do now.

I think homosexuality is a bit different than vanilla v chocolate, don't you? One involves a desert that lasts a few minutes and the other a lifestyle choice that effects not just her but her children as well.

 

[glockmail]

*smirks* Why is it people in denial assume it's an insult?

So now its a term of endearment- and obvious lie. *ppfftt*

 

[xotoxi]

...a lifestyle choice that effects not just her but her children as well.

Pray tell, how does her lifestyle choice effect her children?

 

[glockmail]

Pray tell, how does her lifestyle choice effect her children?

They don't have a father?

 

[xotoxi]

Pray tell, how does her lifestyle choice effect her children?

They don't have a father?

Is her partner butch?

 

[glockmail]

Is her partner butch?

No she's a cute girl, about 10 years younger. Reminds me of my niece actually. Definitely not butch.

Does it matter?

 

[xotoxi]

Is her partner butch?

No she's a cute girl, about 10 years younger. Reminds me of my niece actually. Definitely not butch.

Does it matter?

Not really.

Does it matter if a child has no father? Many don't.

 

[LiveUninhibited]

Based on their athletic careers (both Olympic medalists, one gold, one silver) I assure you that they are both "type A". I think its fairly obvious in this case that one chose her orientation, although I agree that you can never be 100% certain.

This would not mean that all self-described homosexuals can choose. Bisexuals can choose. Not everybody is bisexual but it is clear some unknown proportion are.

Scientists have yet to find a gene that causes homosexuality....

One gene couldn't cause sexuality anyway. It's a combination of variable factors both genetic and not. The real question now is the relative importance of different factors.

wait a minute.. so, is the premise of this thread REALLY that we expect identical twins to react to life and their individual perception EXACTLY THE SAME? Are you fucking kidding me? Do OTHER identical (looking) twins always share the exact same personality characteristics?

good fucking lord, when did TWINS become CLONES?

I guess the whole IDENTICALLY genetically escapes your idiotic concepts. IF as claimed, Homosexuality is Genetic, then they BOTH should be either homosexual or straight. Since they are IDENTICAL Twins. You know, both GENETICALLY the same?

But what the OP and the above poster may fail to grasp is that most of our genes are silent and many can be activated or deactivated depending upon subtle differences in environment - sometimes seemingly randomly. So having the exact same genetic code, even if that did occur, does not mean expression of DNA will be identical. Gene silencing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Actually I think it accounts for that quite well. According to the model he mentioned, the twins in question would likely be near the middle of the spectrum, say a 4, 5, or 6. Somebody who is a 6, for example, might weakly prefer the same sex. For such people environmental factors or other preferences are much more significant. One question is whether their social relations have led them to believe that bisexuality, or even homosexuality, is a viable option. Like many heterosexuals, some homosexuals don't believe in bisexuality as a distinct orientation.

However, somebody who is a 10 cannot, under any circumstances, be attracted to somebody of the opposite sex. So their choice is really between homosexuality and nothing.

I understand the hypothesis, however there is nothing to back it up, certainly not the facts of this case. The twins grew up in the same family, same house, same schools. In fact they chose identical careers in their formative years, both achieving nearly identical results.

If the normal gal had married some fruity guy, then the hypothesis might have some validity, but she married a real old school type.

I’m not so sure you do. It is impossible to perfectly reproduce the same social environment, let alone all aspects of experience. It could be something as simple as one of them having a conversation with somebody that another didn’t if they’re near the middle of the scale (and therefore bisexual). Not all gay people are "fruity."

A polygrapher I talked to said that most men who come to him are innocent and have had homosexual experiences, but most characterize themselves as heterosexual. Whether it's relevant to the charges in question or not, they almost always deny even the thought of doing something homosexual until the polygrapher tests them. Though they can still legally pass in regards to whether a case is brought against them even if they "fail" parts of the battery of questions not directly related to the allegations. One part they usually failed is the homosexual experience/desire part.

Those who would be a zero on the scale would be the only ones without homosexual tendencies under any situation, and those who are a 10 on the scale would be the only ones who are purely homosexual. Everybody else would be capable of bisexuality, even if they have a preference for one sex or the other. This says nothing of the relative proportions.

What's the point of this thread? So what if homsexuality isn't genetic. So what if it is? Are you trying to assert that since homosexuality isn't genetic, its a choice? Well, that isn't true, ask any homosexual. Do you choose to be straight? No. So this thread is pointless. The End.

Actually yes we all CHOSE our sexuality. As kids most youth experiment with both. Yet MOST, about 97 percent, CHOSE to be normal.

Um sorry I couldn't get hard to a guy even if it was for the noble purpose of experimenting with my sexuality. If you can get hard to both guys and girls, you're bi. I did not choose to be heterosexual. Time for a phallometric study. I'd wager that many guys who call themselves straight would get hard to gay porn. But some, such as myself, would not.

 

[glockmail]

Does it matter if a child has no father? Many don't.

It puts them at an immediate disadvantage, especially if the child is a boy.

 

[glockmail]

[1]This would not mean that all self-described homosexuals can choose. Bisexuals can choose. Not everybody is bisexual but it is clear some unknown proportion are.

[2]One gene couldn't cause sexuality anyway. It's a combination of variable factors both genetic and not. The real question now is the relative importance of different factors.

But what the OP and the above poster may fail to grasp is that most of our genes are silent and many can be activated or deactivated depending upon subtle differences in environment - sometimes seemingly randomly. So having the exact same genetic code, even if that did occur, does not mean expression of DNA will be identical. Gene silencing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[3]I’m not so sure you do. It is impossible to perfectly reproduce the same social environment, let alone all aspects of experience. It could be something as simple as one of them having a conversation with somebody that another didn’t if they’re near the middle of the scale (and therefore bisexual). Not all gay people are "fruity."

[4]A polygrapher I talked to said that most men who come to him are innocent and have had homosexual experiences, but most characterize themselves as heterosexual. Whether it's relevant to the charges in question or not, they almost always deny even the thought of doing something homosexual until the polygrapher tests them. Though they can still legally pass in regards to whether a case is brought against them even if they "fail" parts of the battery of questions not directly related to the allegations. One part they usually failed is the homosexual experience/desire part.

Those who would be a zero on the scale would be the only ones without homosexual tendencies under any situation, and those who are a 10 on the scale would be the only ones who are purely homosexual. Everybody else would be capable of bisexuality, even if they have a preference for one sex or the other. This says nothing of the relative proportions.

1. The gal’s a lesbian in a long term committed relationship that includes a child. She’s not “bisexual”. Her twin is in a long term normal marriage that includes a child and she’s not bisexual. *shrug*
2. They’ve found the gene combination for lots of things yet spent millions on finding a gay gene- or combination- and haven’t got anywhere. Time to divert the money into useful research.
3. This supports my argument that homosexuality is a learned trait.
4. Obviously these guys had some encounter and chose not to be gay. *shrug*
5. Again, nice hypothesis, but not backed up by the logistics of this case.

 

[xotoxi]

Does it matter if a child has no father? Many don't.

It puts them at an immediate disadvantage, especially if the child is a boy.

A disadvantage?

A disadvantage in what?

You do realize that there are lots of people out there that don't have one of the two parents in their life (gay or straight) who end up perfectly fine.

 

[glockmail]

A disadvantage?

A disadvantage in what?

You do realize that there are lots of people out there that don't have one of the two parents in their life (gay or straight) who end up perfectly fine.

I know there are many- I have a friend who grew up with a single mom and he's doing great. But ask him, and he sure as hell wishes the old man was there to give a man's advice and perspective. And I'll bet he's damn glad he didn't have to put up with the baggage of two lesbian mothers.

 

[LiveUninhibited]

[1]This would not mean that all self-described homosexuals can choose. Bisexuals can choose. Not everybody is bisexual but it is clear some unknown proportion are.

[2]One gene couldn't cause sexuality anyway. It's a combination of variable factors both genetic and not. The real question now is the relative importance of different factors.

But what the OP and the above poster may fail to grasp is that most of our genes are silent and many can be activated or deactivated depending upon subtle differences in environment - sometimes seemingly randomly. So having the exact same genetic code, even if that did occur, does not mean expression of DNA will be identical. Gene silencing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[3]I’m not so sure you do. It is impossible to perfectly reproduce the same social environment, let alone all aspects of experience. It could be something as simple as one of them having a conversation with somebody that another didn’t if they’re near the middle of the scale (and therefore bisexual). Not all gay people are "fruity."

[4]A polygrapher I talked to said that most men who come to him are innocent and have had homosexual experiences, but most characterize themselves as heterosexual. Whether it's relevant to the charges in question or not, they almost always deny even the thought of doing something homosexual until the polygrapher tests them. Though they can still legally pass in regards to whether a case is brought against them even if they "fail" parts of the battery of questions not directly related to the allegations. One part they usually failed is the homosexual experience/desire part.

Those who would be a zero on the scale would be the only ones without homosexual tendencies under any situation, and those who are a 10 on the scale would be the only ones who are purely homosexual. Everybody else would be capable of bisexuality, even if they have a preference for one sex or the other. This says nothing of the relative proportions.

1. The gal’s a lesbian in a long term committed relationship that includes a child. She’s not “bisexual”. Her twin is in a long term normal marriage that includes a child and she’s not bisexual. *shrug*

I do see what you're saying, but we're getting hampered by ambiguity of language here. When I use the word bisexual, I mean they are capable of sexual desire for both sexes, not that they actually act on their desire for both sexes.

The problem with figuring out how many bisexuals there are is that some of both heterosexual and homosexual communities claim there is no such thing as a bisexual for political reasons.

There is also the idea that you're supposed to commit to one person in ours and most contemporary cultures, thus making it necessary for bisexuals to choose one gender or the other. It would be against their interests to be open about having bisexual thoughts or tendencies because that may threaten their current or even future relationships, causing people to question their fidelity.

Finally and probably most importantly, people in our culture often demonize homosexuality for whatever reason. Thus if somebody did have bisexual tendencies, it would be safest for them to deny their gay side, so to speak.

So the reason my polygraph example is interesting is because it highlights the fact that, within that group of people (mostly innocent people accused of sexual misconduct), there are a significant number of self-described heterosexual men who may actually be bisexual.

2. They’ve found the gene combination for lots of things yet spent millions on finding a gay gene- or combination- and haven’t got anywhere. Time to divert the money into useful research.

Some things are simpler than others. When you're talking about behavior of any kind, it's going to be quite complex. It's true that everybody has choices in their behavior, but what are the choices? Somebody who is purely homosexual in preference literally can choose between living a homosexual lifestyle and not having a sex life. Should they have to make that choice? No, because homosexuality doesn't hurt anybody. What if they were a pedophile? In that case not acting on their desires would be a choice they should make morally because their sexual preference likely will hurt others when turned to action. To be clear, pedophilia has nothing to do with homosexuality. Pedophiles can be homosexual, bisexual, or heterosexual.

3. This supports my argument that homosexuality is a learned trait.

Not if you suppose these women are "naturally" bisexual while some people are naturally homosexual or heterosexual. It would be hard to test that idea without a polygraph, and even then it wouldn't be 100% certain. (polygraphs aren't perfect, but they're more reliable than relying on somebody's honesty about such an issue, lol).

4. Obviously these guys had some encounter and chose not to be gay. *shrug*

If they messed around with a guy, and liked it, they were bisexual or homosexual. Bisexuals have a choice. Homosexuals do not.

5. Again, nice hypothesis, but not backed up by the logistics of this case

It's always possible we're both seeing what we want to see, but as far as I can tell my example strongly supports my hypothesis and your example neither supports nor refutes my hypothesis. We'd need more information than you can likely obtain.

 

[Ravi]

How do you know they aren't bisexual? Did you ask them?

 

[LiveUninhibited]

I should also say that having the same genetic code wouldn't necessarily lead to the same outcome even if it were genetically based because of gene silencing and the like. (not that identical twins have the exact same genetic code, but alleles are generally the same).