I will not Bow!

[pbel]

"...We have seen this scene before in its obscured simplicity..."

In connection with such future prospects and speculation, one of the differences between you and I is that you seem to lean heavily upon the fickle twists and turns of the most recent developments, such as much of The West granting Palestine observer status, temporarily having a Liberal in the White House, etc., while I lean more heavily upon long-term patterns of manifested behaviors and largely ignore the trend du jour or development du jour, while keeping a watchful eye on them myself. You and I see such prospects and speculative outcomes in vastly different lights. As to your comments about the Germans not helping the Israelis, you may do well to more closely study the close and intimate relationship that now exists between Germany and Israel. You may be in for a surprise.

It is your trends du jour analysis that falters...The ME has a history of resistance towards the Western Colonial Powers, and one by one they have left from attrition...History has a habit of repeating...

 

[Kondor3]

And many of the Jews in the Muslim world were Zionists and supported Israel's birth.

aka a hostile population deserving of expulsion.

Just as [MENTION=20204]Kondor3[/MENTION] stated.

Logic knows no borders, right?

That doesn't make them hostile lol !!

The comparison you made is extremely off !

Lighting-off massive rocket-barrages makes the Pals hostile.

Launching large-scale suicide bombing campaigns against Israeli civilian populations makes the Pals hostile.

Digging tunnels from which to launch terror attacks makes the Pals hostile.

Embedding their war assets amongst their civilians makes the Pals hostile - and cowards - hiding behind the skirts of their women and children.

Swearing to destroy Israel and drown the Jews in the Med makes the Pals hostile.

Jews siding with their Arab neighbors in a debating or advocacy context does not make that modest percentage of Jews hostile to Israel.

What a sophomoric and disingenuous failed attempt at sophistry.

 

[Victory67]

If the Jews can kick out 800,000 Arabs in order to make their state more Jewish, the Muslims can kick out 800,000 Jews to make their states more Muslim.

 

[Kondor3]

If the Jews can kick out 800,000 Arabs in order to make their state more Jewish, the Muslims can kick out 800,000 Jews to make their states more Muslim.

The Muslims pretty much kicked-out all their Jews already, didn't they, in the 1948-1975 timeframe. I seriously doubt that sizable Jewish communities exist in such countries any longer. I'm also guessing that what remains - all told - would fall far below the 800K mark; although I'd have to go digging-up demographic stats in order to be certain.

 

[Kondor3]

I advocate Hostile Population Expulsion...

We went over all of this yesterday...

Don't be boring...

The Arabs used the same justification when they kicked out hundreds of thousands of Jews after 1949. Birds of a feather, huh?

I don't recall the Jews of those countries engaging in suicide bombing against the Muslims prior to the expulsion of the Jews from those countries.

I don't recall the Jews of those countries engaging in rocket-barrages against the Muslims prior to the expulsion of the Jews from those countries.

I do recall the Jews of those countries being used as political pawns to try to punish Israel.

You have a self-serving and inadequate understanding of the phrase 'hostile population'.

 

[toastman]

If the Jews can kick out 800,000 Arabs in order to make their state more Jewish, the Muslims can kick out 800,000 Jews to make their states more Muslim.

You need to understand something concerning the expulsion of the Palestinians.

It happened mainly during the 47-48 Mandatory Palestine Civil war AND the 1948 Arab Israeli war, where BOTH SIDES were pushing each other away. During the 1948 war, the Palestinians joined the 5 Arab armies in trying to destroy Israel and push the Jews to the sea. The Jews pushed BACK, and won, resulting in the expelling of many Palestinians. Had the Arabs won, every Jew would have been expelled (and expelling the Jews meant pushing them in the sea since no Arab state would take them BACK in)

But they didn't, they lost. And all this complaining about how so many Palestinians were expelled is just being a sore loser.
That's what they get for their Arab so called 'brothers' ( ) trying to destroy the newly founded state of Israel.

And you\d think they learned their lesson?? NOPE. In 1967, the Arab states did the same thing and lost AGAIN, resulting in more expelled Palestinians

 

[aris2chat]

If the Jews can kick out 800,000 Arabs in order to make their state more Jewish, the Muslims can kick out 800,000 Jews to make their states more Muslim.

The Muslims pretty much kicked-out all their Jews already, didn't they, in the 1948-1975 timeframe. I seriously doubt that sizable Jewish communities exist in such countries any longer. I'm also guessing that what remains - all told - would fall far below the 800K mark; although I'd have to go digging-up demographic stats in order to be certain.

and those jews from arab lands are living in Israel for the most part now. Arab states refuse to accept palestinians and keep them as refugees. Jordan offered them citizenship and passports as well as a position as PM for arafat. Arafat instead decided to try and over throw King Hussein which led to Black September.
Citizenship was withdrawn in the WB. A few thousand that were granted citizenship in Lebanon has also been withdrawn for their actions in Lebanon.

Try and be nice....

 

[pbel]

If the Jews can kick out 800,000 Arabs in order to make their state more Jewish, the Muslims can kick out 800,000 Jews to make their states more Muslim.

You need to understand something concerning the expulsion of the Palestinians.

It happened mainly during the 47-48 Mandatory Palestine Civil war AND the 1948 Arab Israeli war, where BOTH SIDES were pushing each other away. During the 1948 war, the Palestinians joined the 5 Arab armies in trying to destroy Israel and push the Jews to the sea. The Jews pushed BACK, and won, resulting in the expelling of many Palestinians. Had the Arabs won, every Jew would have been expelled (and expelling the Jews meant pushing them in the sea since no Arab state would take them BACK in)

But they didn't, they lost. And all this complaining about how so many Palestinians were expelled is just being a sore loser.
That's what they get for their Arab so called 'brothers' ( ) trying to destroy the newly founded state of Israel.

And you\d think they learned their lesson?? NOPE. In 1967, the Arab states did the same thing and lost AGAIN, resulting in more expelled Palestinians

You are distorting history...the 67 war was a pre-emptive strike planned as a land grab by Israeli leaders...They raised tensions, but the fact is the Arabs had 100,000 soldiers at Israel's border while Israel had a 150,000 with far superior weaponry. The proof: six days and the Land Grab of Jerusalem in your prayers.

The Bullshiite stops here. I want to see peace to the 67 borders to make up for this travesty...Peace and more importantly Acceptance can only end this regional conflict.

Israel is an invading force not a defending one that you push...

 

[Victory67]

If the Jews can kick out 800,000 Arabs in order to make their state more Jewish, the Muslims can kick out 800,000 Jews to make their states more Muslim.

You need to understand something concerning the expulsion of the Palestinians.

It happened mainly during the 47-48 Mandatory Palestine Civil war AND the 1948 Arab Israeli war, where BOTH SIDES were pushing each other away. During the 1948 war, the Palestinians joined the 5 Arab armies in trying to destroy Israel and push the Jews to the sea. The Jews pushed BACK, and won, resulting in the expelling of many Palestinians. Had the Arabs won, every Jew would have been expelled (and expelling the Jews meant pushing them in the sea since no Arab state would take them BACK in)

But they didn't, they lost. And all this complaining about how so many Palestinians were expelled is just being a sore loser.
That's what they get for their Arab so called 'brothers' ( ) trying to destroy the newly founded state of Israel.

And you\d think they learned their lesson?? NOPE. In 1967, the Arab states did the same thing and lost AGAIN, resulting in more expelled Palestinians

Half of the 800,000 Arab refugees from Israel were forced out by the Israeli armies.

The only reason 200,000 remained in the north of Israel is because the officers refused to obey their orders to force out innocent Arab civilians. This is too their credit and the Arabs of Israel owe them a big thanks for their humanity as many of their fellow Jews showed no such humanity.

 

[Victory67]

If the Jews can kick out 800,000 Arabs in order to make their state more Jewish, the Muslims can kick out 800,000 Jews to make their states more Muslim.

The Muslims pretty much kicked-out all their Jews already, didn't they, in the 1948-1975 timeframe. I seriously doubt that sizable Jewish communities exist in such countries any longer. I'm also guessing that what remains - all told - would fall far below the 800K mark; although I'd have to go digging-up demographic stats in order to be certain.

and those jews from arab lands are living in Israel for the most part now. Arab states refuse to accept palestinians and keep them as refugees. Jordan offered them citizenship and passports as well as a position as PM for arafat. Arafat instead decided to try and over throw King Hussein which led to Black September.
Citizenship was withdrawn in the WB. A few thousand that were granted citizenship in Lebanon has also been withdrawn for their actions in Lebanon.

Try and be nice....

The Palestinians in Jordan are all citizens. The Palestinians in the West Bank also still have Jordanian citizenship.

 

[Kondor3]

Half of the 800,000 Arab refugees from Israel were forced out by the Israeli armies.The only reason 200,000 remained in the north of Israel is because the officers refused to obey their orders to force out innocent Arab civilians. This is too their credit and the Arabs of Israel owe them a big thanks for their humanity as many of their fellow Jews showed no such humanity.

Or, alternatively, 200,000 had the common sense God gave an ant, and the balls to act on that common sense, and remain in-place, rather than falling for the Bullshit Artist chatter served-up by the Arab League at the time.

 

[RoccoR]

Victory67, et al,

I'm not so sure this is true.

If the Jews can kick out 800,000 Arabs in order to make their state more Jewish, the Muslims can kick out 800,000 Jews to make their states more Muslim.

(COMMENT)

There are lots of things that have change, evolved and altered the world. The Middle East has not escaped change, although the Arab, as a human and their societal adaptivity, has certainly resisted.

The Palestinian cannot stand against a war of attrition even if they (somehow) magically assumed sovereign control of Israel.

The key to peace in the region is the mutual adaptation of the cultures in a economically prosperous way. They don't have to assimilate, just want the mutually better life.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Victory67]

You are distorting history...the 67 war was a pre-emptive strike planned as a land grab by Israeli leaders...They raised tensions, but the fact is the Arabs had 100,000 soldiers at Israel's border while Israel had a 150,000 with far superior weaponry. The proof: six days and the Land Grab of Jerusalem in your prayers.

The Bullshiite stops here. I want to see peace to the 67 borders to make up for this travesty...Peace and more importantly Acceptance can only end this regional conflict.

Israel is an invading force not a defending one that you push...

This is where you and I are going to seriously disagree.

Just before the Six Day War, Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran, massed hundreds of thousands of troops right by the Israel border, and their leaders claimed again and again how the destruction of Israel was imminent and was their goal.

Knowing all this Israel would have been suicidal to not strike first. There is such a thing as pre-emptive self-defense and Israel did just that in 1967. They also urged Jordan to not join the war and said nothing had to go any further than little gun battles in Jerusalem. The Great King Hussein, who I greatly admire, said "the die had been cast" and launched a full-scale war on Israel which Israel of course won.

Israel was right to launch pre-emptive self-defense against Egypt. They were right to urge Jordan to stay out of the war. The Syrian front is more complicated.

Israel's big mistake was to put one single settler in Sinai, Gaza, and the West Bank. They should have just used these lands as a barganing chip for peace.

We now see how settlements have made peace all but impossible, as Palestine wants the settlers to go and many in Israel want them all to be part of Israel.

Unless Israel and Palestine can come to some agreement where some Israelis stay part of Israel with a 1 to 1 swap of land and the rest of the settlers go home to Israel or become citizens of Palestine, peace isn't going to ever happen.

 

[Kondor3]

And if peace isn't ever going to happen, then the contestants may as well duke-it-out for the title, here and now, yes? There is no point in delaying - from the Israeli perspective, anyway.

 

[pbel]

You are distorting history...the 67 war was a pre-emptive strike planned as a land grab by Israeli leaders...They raised tensions, but the fact is the Arabs had 100,000 soldiers at Israel's border while Israel had a 150,000 with far superior weaponry. The proof: six days and the Land Grab of Jerusalem in your prayers.

The Bullshiite stops here. I want to see peace to the 67 borders to make up for this travesty...Peace and more importantly Acceptance can only end this regional conflict.

Israel is an invading force not a defending one that you push...

This is where you and I are going to seriously disagree.

Just before the Six Day War, Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran, massed hundreds of thousands of troops right by the Israel border, and their leaders claimed again and again how the destruction of Israel was imminent and was their goal.

Knowing all this Israel would have been suicidal to not strike first. There is such a thing as pre-emptive self-defense and Israel did just that in 1967. They also urged Jordan to not join the war and said nothing had to go any further than little gun battles in Jerusalem. The Great King Hussein, who I greatly admire, said "the die had been cast" and launched a full-scale war on Israel which Israel of course won.

Israel was right to launch pre-emptive self-defense against Egypt. They were right to urge Jordan to stay out of the war. The Syrian front is more complicated.

Israel's big mistake was to put one single settler in Sinai, Gaza, and the West Bank. They should have just used these lands as a barganing chip for peace.

We now see how settlements have made peace all but impossible, as Palestine wants the settlers to go and many in Israel want them all to be part of Israel.

Unless Israel and Palestine can come to some agreement where some Israelis stay part of Israel with a 1 to 1 swap of land and the rest of the settlers go home to Israel or become citizens of Palestine, peace isn't going to ever happen.

We may disagree, however, it was not a defensive preemptive strike...History has thus far noted my view.

A few tidbits for you.




Moshe Dayan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Dayan*








Wikipedia





6 Political career; 7 Six-Day War (1967); 8 Yom Kippur War (1973); 9 Foreign ... On 3 October 1939 he was the commanding instructor for Haganah Leader's .... In Jerusalem he had given instructions that infiltrators killed in no-man's-land or the .... argued for a pre-emptive attack on Israel's neighbours, particularly Egypt.
Missing: distorting *grab



More Re-Writing Of History: Israel's Attack On Egypt During Six Day ...



northerntruthseeker.blogspot.com/.../more-re-writing-of-history-israels.h...*




Jul 4, 2010 - Israel's attack on Egypt in June '67 was not 'preemptive' ... Yet this historical interpretation of the war is not sustained by the documentary record. ... Sinai, to which Nasser replied, “Whether you believe it or not, we were in fear of an attack from Israel. .... The Truth About Israel's Land Grab In The West Ban.


The lies about the 1967 war are still more powerful than the truth ...



www.alanhart.net/the-lies-about-the-1967-war-are-still-more-powerful-th...*







Jun 5, 2012 - In retrospect it can be seen that the 1967 war, the Six Days War, ... and were only prevented from doing so by Israel's pre-emptive strike. .... Yet now we know that war was a long-planned land grab destined to outrage Arabs and Muslims. ..... With older History you have to compare authors for authenticity but ...


The three whoppers of Alan Dershowitz - Mondoweiss



mondoweiss.net/2013/05/three-whoppers-dershowitz.html*








Mondoweiss





May 7, 2013 - Let me start by giving you a little of my own history on these issues. In 1967, as you probably all know, Israel tried very hard to keep Jordan out of the 1967 war… ... The War with Egypt and with Syria was a preemptive war, but the war that ... Morris does claim that Israeli leaders thought that “the conquered ...

 

[toastman]

If the Jews can kick out 800,000 Arabs in order to make their state more Jewish, the Muslims can kick out 800,000 Jews to make their states more Muslim.

You need to understand something concerning the expulsion of the Palestinians.

It happened mainly during the 47-48 Mandatory Palestine Civil war AND the 1948 Arab Israeli war, where BOTH SIDES were pushing each other away. During the 1948 war, the Palestinians joined the 5 Arab armies in trying to destroy Israel and push the Jews to the sea. The Jews pushed BACK, and won, resulting in the expelling of many Palestinians. Had the Arabs won, every Jew would have been expelled (and expelling the Jews meant pushing them in the sea since no Arab state would take them BACK in)

But they didn't, they lost. And all this complaining about how so many Palestinians were expelled is just being a sore loser.
That's what they get for their Arab so called 'brothers' ( ) trying to destroy the newly founded state of Israel.

And you\d think they learned their lesson?? NOPE. In 1967, the Arab states did the same thing and lost AGAIN, resulting in more expelled Palestinians

You are distorting history...the 67 war was a pre-emptive strike planned as a land grab by Israeli leaders...They raised tensions, but the fact is the Arabs had 100,000 soldiers at Israel's border while Israel had a 150,000 with far superior weaponry. The proof: six days and the Land Grab of Jerusalem in your prayers.

The Bullshiite stops here. I want to see peace to the 67 borders to make up for this travesty...Peace and more importantly Acceptance can only end this regional conflict.

Israel is an invading force not a defending one that you push...

I am distorting history??? You people that think Israel was the aggressor in the 6 day war are a minority. You really think Israel would have attacked had Egypt and Syria NOT massed troops by its borders????
Why did the Arab mass their troops at the border for, while making threats of annihalation?
Why would Israel risk its existence by attacking all those countries (who were backed by other states) that were 500 times its size? And if it was a planned land grab, why did Israel offer the Golan back to Syria and the Sinai back to Egypt?
As for capturing the West Bank, Israel begged Jordan not to join the war, but they did. So you can't claim that Israel's pre emptive strike was to take over the West Bank.

The proof: six days and the Land Grab of Jerusalem in your prayers.

Huh? What do you mean ?

 

[Kondor3]

You are distorting history...the 67 war was a pre-emptive strike planned as a land grab by Israeli leaders...They raised tensions, but the fact is the Arabs had 100,000 soldiers at Israel's border while Israel had a 150,000 with far superior weaponry. The proof: six days and the Land Grab of Jerusalem in your prayers.

The Bullshiite stops here. I want to see peace to the 67 borders to make up for this travesty...Peace and more importantly Acceptance can only end this regional conflict.

Israel is an invading force not a defending one that you push...

This is where you and I are going to seriously disagree.

Just before the Six Day War, Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran, massed hundreds of thousands of troops right by the Israel border, and their leaders claimed again and again how the destruction of Israel was imminent and was their goal.

Knowing all this Israel would have been suicidal to not strike first. There is such a thing as pre-emptive self-defense and Israel did just that in 1967. They also urged Jordan to not join the war and said nothing had to go any further than little gun battles in Jerusalem. The Great King Hussein, who I greatly admire, said "the die had been cast" and launched a full-scale war on Israel which Israel of course won.

Israel was right to launch pre-emptive self-defense against Egypt. They were right to urge Jordan to stay out of the war. The Syrian front is more complicated.

Agree.

Israel's big mistake was to put one single settler in Sinai, Gaza, and the West Bank. They should have just used these lands as a barganing chip for peace.

We now see how settlements have made peace all but impossible, as Palestine wants the settlers to go and many in Israel want them all to be part of Israel.

Unless Israel and Palestine can come to some agreement where some Israelis stay part of Israel with a 1 to 1 swap of land and the rest of the settlers go home to Israel or become citizens of Palestine, peace isn't going to ever happen.

Not so much.

 

[toastman]

The Muslims pretty much kicked-out all their Jews already, didn't they, in the 1948-1975 timeframe. I seriously doubt that sizable Jewish communities exist in such countries any longer. I'm also guessing that what remains - all told - would fall far below the 800K mark; although I'd have to go digging-up demographic stats in order to be certain.

and those jews from arab lands are living in Israel for the most part now. Arab states refuse to accept palestinians and keep them as refugees. Jordan offered them citizenship and passports as well as a position as PM for arafat. Arafat instead decided to try and over throw King Hussein which led to Black September.
Citizenship was withdrawn in the WB. A few thousand that were granted citizenship in Lebanon has also been withdrawn for their actions in Lebanon.

Try and be nice....

The Palestinians in Jordan are all citizens. The Palestinians in the West Bank also still have Jordanian citizenship.

Not all of them. Many of them are refugees living in refugee camps in Jordan. They are not citizens

 

[aris2chat]

If the Jews can kick out 800,000 Arabs in order to make their state more Jewish, the Muslims can kick out 800,000 Jews to make their states more Muslim.

You need to understand something concerning the expulsion of the Palestinians.

It happened mainly during the 47-48 Mandatory Palestine Civil war AND the 1948 Arab Israeli war, where BOTH SIDES were pushing each other away. During the 1948 war, the Palestinians joined the 5 Arab armies in trying to destroy Israel and push the Jews to the sea. The Jews pushed BACK, and won, resulting in the expelling of many Palestinians. Had the Arabs won, every Jew would have been expelled (and expelling the Jews meant pushing them in the sea since no Arab state would take them BACK in)

But they didn't, they lost. And all this complaining about how so many Palestinians were expelled is just being a sore loser.
That's what they get for their Arab so called 'brothers' ( ) trying to destroy the newly founded state of Israel.

And you\d think they learned their lesson?? NOPE. In 1967, the Arab states did the same thing and lost AGAIN, resulting in more expelled Palestinians

Half of the 800,000 Arab refugees from Israel were forced out by the Israeli armies.

The only reason 200,000 remained in the north of Israel is because the officers refused to obey their orders to force out innocent Arab civilians. This is too their credit and the Arabs of Israel owe them a big thanks for their humanity as many of their fellow Jews showed no such humanity.

Arabs were asked to stay and be part of Israel. It also offered in '49 to take back in 100,000 of those who had left. Since then till Oslo there were reunification programs that allowed on average 2000 palestinians a year to return to Israel and become citizens.

Israel took in the jews thrown out of arab lands, but the arabs refused to absorb the palestinians they told to get out of the way of arab armies even before the mandate ended. Jordanian, egyptian and syrian official records as well as palestinian officials all have acknowledged that the arabs created the exodus and subsequent refugee problem.
Only a few thousand were forced out due to terrorist activity, by the Israelis.

 

[toastman]

If the Jews can kick out 800,000 Arabs in order to make their state more Jewish, the Muslims can kick out 800,000 Jews to make their states more Muslim.

You need to understand something concerning the expulsion of the Palestinians.

It happened mainly during the 47-48 Mandatory Palestine Civil war AND the 1948 Arab Israeli war, where BOTH SIDES were pushing each other away. During the 1948 war, the Palestinians joined the 5 Arab armies in trying to destroy Israel and push the Jews to the sea. The Jews pushed BACK, and won, resulting in the expelling of many Palestinians. Had the Arabs won, every Jew would have been expelled (and expelling the Jews meant pushing them in the sea since no Arab state would take them BACK in)

But they didn't, they lost. And all this complaining about how so many Palestinians were expelled is just being a sore loser.
That's what they get for their Arab so called 'brothers' ( ) trying to destroy the newly founded state of Israel.

And you\d think they learned their lesson?? NOPE. In 1967, the Arab states did the same thing and lost AGAIN, resulting in more expelled Palestinians

Half of the 800,000 Arab refugees from Israel were forced out by the Israeli armies.

The only reason 200,000 remained in the north of Israel is because the officers refused to obey their orders to force out innocent Arab civilians. This is too their credit and the Arabs of Israel owe them a big thanks for their humanity as many of their fellow Jews showed no such humanity.

Huh?? Where did you read that??

But you do have things a bit mixed up. It is the Palestinians who should thank Israel for not expelling every single one of them after the 6 day war and then AGAIN after the yom kippur war. Everyone though Moshe Dayan would expel them, but he let hundreds of thousands stay.

Had the Arabs won either war, there would not be a single Jew living between the river and the sea.