I will not Bow!

[Kondor3]

What-the-hell... I tried...

 

[P F Tinmore]

Stop playing with my head Tinmore. Your lies might work with someone else, but not with me

Surely if Israel acquired any land there would be documents showing a treaty or agreement. Any land won would be defined by definite borders.

I don't see where that has ever happened.

Egypt and Jordan for starters, then the UN armistice lines that were agreed as starting points for any future borders agreements.

What land did Israel acquire from Egypt an Jordan?

 

[Hossfly]

Surely if Israel acquired any land there would be documents showing a treaty or agreement. Any land won would be defined by definite borders.

I don't see where that has ever happened.

Egypt and Jordan for starters, then the UN armistice lines that were agreed as starting points for any future borders agreements.

What land did Israel acquire from Egypt an Jordan?

Why, check out your '48 map of Israel.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Oh, so now Wikipedia is biased?? LOL !!

And what do you mean by IDF self serving

Just because the IDF said they thought Egypt was planning for war does not mean they knew of an immanent attack. Egypt must have known they would easily be defeated. Why would they plan for war without having the remote means of achieving their goals?

If you need help re-searching let me know.

LOL You can say whatever you want Pbel, but it doesn't change the fact that Israel was not the aggressor in the war, nor did they start the war just because they fired the first shot.

BTW, Israel even warned Egypt that if they closed the Straits of Tiran again, that it would be an act of war against Israel (which it obviously was).

More proof that Egypt was preparing to attack Israel:

"Nasser began massing his troops in the Sinai Peninsula on Israel's border (May 16), expelled the UNEF force from Gaza and Sinai (May 19) and took up UNEF positions at Sharm el-Sheikh, overlooking the Straits of Tiran.[16][17] Israel reiterated declarations made in 1957 that any closure of the Straits would be considered an act of war, or justification for war.[18][19] Nasser declared the Straits closed to Israeli shipping on May 22–23"

The paragraph above is under the sub - title Summary of events leading to war

Origins of the Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Israel reiterated declarations made in 1957 that any closure of the Straits would be considered an act of war, or justification for war.

So, closing the Straits of Tiran is an act of war but closing Gaza's territorial waters is not.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Egypt and Jordan for starters, then the UN armistice lines that were agreed as starting points for any future borders agreements.

What land did Israel acquire from Egypt an Jordan?

Why, check out your '48 map of Israel.

Never seen one.

 

[Hossfly]

Just because the IDF said they thought Egypt was planning for war does not mean they knew of an immanent attack. Egypt must have known they would easily be defeated. Why would they plan for war without having the remote means of achieving their goals?

If you need help re-searching let me know.

LOL You can say whatever you want Pbel, but it doesn't change the fact that Israel was not the aggressor in the war, nor did they start the war just because they fired the first shot.

BTW, Israel even warned Egypt that if they closed the Straits of Tiran again, that it would be an act of war against Israel (which it obviously was).

More proof that Egypt was preparing to attack Israel:

"Nasser began massing his troops in the Sinai Peninsula on Israel's border (May 16), expelled the UNEF force from Gaza and Sinai (May 19) and took up UNEF positions at Sharm el-Sheikh, overlooking the Straits of Tiran.[16][17] Israel reiterated declarations made in 1957 that any closure of the Straits would be considered an act of war, or justification for war.[18][19] Nasser declared the Straits closed to Israeli shipping on May 22–23"

The paragraph above is under the sub - title Summary of events leading to war

Origins of the Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Israel reiterated declarations made in 1957 that any closure of the Straits would be considered an act of war, or justification for war.

So, closing the Straits of Tiran is an act of war but closing Gaza's territorial waters is not.

Who administers those waters?

 

[toastman]

Just because the IDF said they thought Egypt was planning for war does not mean they knew of an immanent attack. Egypt must have known they would easily be defeated. Why would they plan for war without having the remote means of achieving their goals?

If you need help re-searching let me know.

LOL You can say whatever you want Pbel, but it doesn't change the fact that Israel was not the aggressor in the war, nor did they start the war just because they fired the first shot.

BTW, Israel even warned Egypt that if they closed the Straits of Tiran again, that it would be an act of war against Israel (which it obviously was).

More proof that Egypt was preparing to attack Israel:

"Nasser began massing his troops in the Sinai Peninsula on Israel's border (May 16), expelled the UNEF force from Gaza and Sinai (May 19) and took up UNEF positions at Sharm el-Sheikh, overlooking the Straits of Tiran.[16][17] Israel reiterated declarations made in 1957 that any closure of the Straits would be considered an act of war, or justification for war.[18][19] Nasser declared the Straits closed to Israeli shipping on May 22–23"

The paragraph above is under the sub - title Summary of events leading to war

Origins of the Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Israel reiterated declarations made in 1957 that any closure of the Straits would be considered an act of war, or justification for war.

So, closing the Straits of Tiran is an act of war but closing Gaza's territorial waters is not.

What does one have to do with the other??

 

[Phoenall]

and the PA has already agreed in principle to an equal land trade for the settlements, but even expansion within the settlements is turned into a land theft when there is no additional land involved. Settlements are in no way an issue to hindering a peace agreement except that the palestinians don't want to agree to any peace and will use any and every excuse to walk, or rather run, away from the negotiation table.

That's only because you don't understand that many of the settlements are illegal.

Why should the PA accept Israel being able to keep illegal settlements?

The Israelis still refuse to offer a 1 to 1 exchange of land in order to keep settlements.

They think for every square mile of land Israel keeps, Palestine should get 1/3 of the land area in Israel. With such an unfair mindset how can there be peace?

EVIDENCE AND PROOF and not from some islamonazi hate site

 

[Phoenall]

I wonder how you can tell us how there can ever be peace when in the Hamas and Fatah Charters, they still state their purpose is to destroy Israel.

The PLO amended their charter more than a decade ago.

No they didn't as it was never ratified, you see they could not get the quorum needed to change the charter.

PLO Charter Revision Strategy

But nothing was done to change the Covenant. The requirement was restated in another letter from Arafat to Rabin which accompanied the May 4, 1994 Agreement on the Gaza Strip and Jericho Area (the Cairo Agreement), but no action was taken by Arafat and the PLO.

But, again, that was not actually the case. The PNC action, which has not been officially fully disclosed, only stated an intention to make changes at a future date and did not specify, in detail, the changes that would be made. The matter was referred to a legal committee for study. No specific anti-Israel clauses in the Covenant were declared officially abrogated. Moreover, the process was incomplete because the PNC did not draft a new Covenant. After winning the election in May 1996, Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu declared the failure to revise the Covenant to be a violation of the agreements by the Palestinians.

On December 14, 1998, the Palestinian National Council, in accordance with the Wye Memorandum, which required compliance with the earlier agreements, convened in Gaza in the presence of US President Clinton and voted to reaffirm their decision to amend the Covenant. But, again, this was insubstantial window dressing. Their action didn't actually amend the Covenant and the Palestinian Authority remained in violation of the lengthening series of agreements.

Although the Palestinian National Council (PNC) has twice taken formal decisions to revise the Palestinian National Covenant (1996 and 1998) calling for Israel's destruction, the PNC Chairman, Salim Za'anoun, stated on February 3, 2001, in the official Palestinian Authority newspaper, that the Palestinian Covenant remained unchanged and was still in force [Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 3 February 2001, as translated by MEMRI].

This saga of the Covenant revision is an example of the lack of good faith on the part of Arafat and the Palestinian Arabs in the course of the Oslo peace process. But, it probably does not make a difference whether the Covenant is actually revised or not. The hatred and violence directed against Israel by the Palestinian Arabs does not originate with the piece of paper called the Palestinian National Covenant.

 

[Phoenall]

The PLO amended their charter more than a decade ago.

Why don't you prove it to us.

Like President Clinton, Israel and the Likud party now formally agreed that the objectionable clauses of the charter had been abrogated, in official statements and statements by Prime Minister Netanyahu, Foreign Minister Sharon, Defense Minister Mordechai and Trade and Industry Minister Sharansky.[13][14][15][16] With official Israeli objections to the Charter disappearing henceforward from lists of Palestinian violations of agreements,[17] the international legal controversy ended.

Palestinian National Covenant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The draft of the Constitution of the State of Palestine makes no mention of destroying Israel.

Palestinian Constitutition - First Part

From your link we see this which destroys your argument

Despite President Clinton's optimism, the events of 1998 did not entirely resolve the controversy of the Charter. A June 1999 report by the Palestinian Authority's Ministry of Information on the status of the Charter made no mention of the 1998 events and leading Palestinians continue to state that the Charter has not yet been amended

In March 2011 the PLO-EC Chairman asked the PLO-EC to convene the PLO Constitution Committee, either in Amman or in Cairo, and advised that the committee should draw up amendments to the PLO charter by September 31, when it's is scheduled that the state-building project of the PNA Prime Minister is to be completed.


SO YOU ARE CAUGHT LYING AGAIN LIKE A GOOD LITTLE ISLAMONAZI

 

[Phoenall]

I can imagine that even if the charter were changed, those Palestinians doing the changing would be killed by other Palestinians, the same way if some Palestinians signed a peace agreement with Israel, they would be killed. Say, since you appear to have mucho time on your hands, why don't you go over there and convince your good friends to change it? You can also tell them to stop making those cartoons teaching the children to hate the Jews and how glorious it is to be a Shaheed if you take out some Jews with you.

The PLO Charter Amendment That Never Was - Op-Eds - Israel National News

You asked me for evidence that the Charter was amended only to then say that the Charter was never amended after I give you evidence? What a waste of time you are.

Because it never was amended and you produced no proof that it was. A draft is just that a preliminary piece of paper with the proposed amendments on that has to be ratified by a 66% quorum. It is you that is the waste of time for not doing your research and only using the sites and sources that support your islamonazi POV.

 

[Phoenall]

So Israel gives the palestinians desert. Now jews might have made the desert bloom but do you think palestinians can do the same? Or are willing to try? They can't even make their own economy bloom with all the money given to them by the world.

Jews develope the land, vacated it and turn it over to palestinians.... that worked so well in gaza the palestinians destroyed everything that was had been touched by jewish hands, and still wage constant war on Israel because they won't accept Israel has a right to exist.

If even Jordan does not want palestinians in control of the jordan valley, it does not show much faith in the palestinians/former jordanians.

So the only options are parts of northern Israel with hundreds of thousands of Arabs, or parts of the Negev desert?

Sounds like you want to make an offer the Palestinians must refuse.



How about instead Israel offers Palestine a 1 to 1 swap, settlement land for uninhabited Israeli land that's borders the West Bank.

Israel could just give Palestine a 5 mile wide extension of the West Bank border in the northern half.

Why not to the south of the west bank and let the Palestinians use their skills to improve the land like the Jews have. How about the Palestinians swap settlements for East Jerusalem and Hebron that would be fair. The Israelis will deconstruct the two carbuncles and ship them to were the Palestinians want to re build them.

The Palestinians were offered 98% of the original west bank with land swaps for the other 2% and the right of Jews to live in peace and safety in palestine by Israel. Now why did Arafat turn it down again ?

 

[Phoenall]

If the Jews can kick out 800,000 Arabs in order to make their state more Jewish, the Muslims can kick out 800,000 Jews to make their states more Muslim.

Had a change of view and reduced your fantasy figure from 1.2 million down to 800,000. When there was not that many Palestinians in Israel pre 1948. The ones that were there left willingly when told to by the arab high command.

 

[Phoenall]

If the Jews can kick out 800,000 Arabs in order to make their state more Jewish, the Muslims can kick out 800,000 Jews to make their states more Muslim.

The Muslims pretty much kicked-out all their Jews already, didn't they, in the 1948-1975 timeframe. I seriously doubt that sizable Jewish communities exist in such countries any longer. I'm also guessing that what remains - all told - would fall far below the 800K mark; although I'd have to go digging-up demographic stats in order to be certain.

The Jews have been kicked out of their homes and property since islam raised its ugly head. As soon as a Jew made the land fertile a muslim came along and stole it from him, then the muslim left the land to deteriorate and blamed the Jew's for putting a curse on him and his land. And so the cycle of Islamic atrocities and oppression carried on in the M.E.

 

[Phoenall]

If the Jews can kick out 800,000 Arabs in order to make their state more Jewish, the Muslims can kick out 800,000 Jews to make their states more Muslim.

You need to understand something concerning the expulsion of the Palestinians.

It happened mainly during the 47-48 Mandatory Palestine Civil war AND the 1948 Arab Israeli war, where BOTH SIDES were pushing each other away. During the 1948 war, the Palestinians joined the 5 Arab armies in trying to destroy Israel and push the Jews to the sea. The Jews pushed BACK, and won, resulting in the expelling of many Palestinians. Had the Arabs won, every Jew would have been expelled (and expelling the Jews meant pushing them in the sea since no Arab state would take them BACK in)

But they didn't, they lost. And all this complaining about how so many Palestinians were expelled is just being a sore loser.
That's what they get for their Arab so called 'brothers' ( ) trying to destroy the newly founded state of Israel.

And you\d think they learned their lesson?? NOPE. In 1967, the Arab states did the same thing and lost AGAIN, resulting in more expelled Palestinians

You are distorting history...the 67 war was a pre-emptive strike planned as a land grab by Israeli leaders...They raised tensions, but the fact is the Arabs had 100,000 soldiers at Israel's border while Israel had a 150,000 with far superior weaponry. The proof: six days and the Land Grab of Jerusalem in your prayers.

The Bullshiite stops here. I want to see peace to the 67 borders to make up for this travesty...Peace and more importantly Acceptance can only end this regional conflict.

Israel is an invading force not a defending one that you push...

AND YOU ARE LYING

Which land did they grab then that was not handed back in the fullness of time. As for Jerusalem that was majority Jewish owned land taken in the 1948 land grab by Jordan.
The arabs stopped the Israeli ships from passing through the straights of Tiran which was a breach of Maritime law and the Geneva conventions.
Just what are these '67 borders and can you produce a legal document that states '67 borders. All I can find is UN res 242 that says :-

Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict

No mention of any borders is there, that is an islamonazi LIE spread to justify their continual attacks on Jewish children.

 

[Phoenall]

If the Jews can kick out 800,000 Arabs in order to make their state more Jewish, the Muslims can kick out 800,000 Jews to make their states more Muslim.

You need to understand something concerning the expulsion of the Palestinians.

It happened mainly during the 47-48 Mandatory Palestine Civil war AND the 1948 Arab Israeli war, where BOTH SIDES were pushing each other away. During the 1948 war, the Palestinians joined the 5 Arab armies in trying to destroy Israel and push the Jews to the sea. The Jews pushed BACK, and won, resulting in the expelling of many Palestinians. Had the Arabs won, every Jew would have been expelled (and expelling the Jews meant pushing them in the sea since no Arab state would take them BACK in)

But they didn't, they lost. And all this complaining about how so many Palestinians were expelled is just being a sore loser.
That's what they get for their Arab so called 'brothers' ( ) trying to destroy the newly founded state of Israel.

And you\d think they learned their lesson?? NOPE. In 1967, the Arab states did the same thing and lost AGAIN, resulting in more expelled Palestinians

Half of the 800,000 Arab refugees from Israel were forced out by the Israeli armies.

The only reason 200,000 remained in the north of Israel is because the officers refused to obey their orders to force out innocent Arab civilians. This is too their credit and the Arabs of Israel owe them a big thanks for their humanity as many of their fellow Jews showed no such humanity.

WERE IS YOUR PROOF when even the Palestinians say they left willingly and lost everything. The truth is you are just a semi literate mouthpiece for islamonazi terrorist scum

 

[Phoenall]

The Muslims pretty much kicked-out all their Jews already, didn't they, in the 1948-1975 timeframe. I seriously doubt that sizable Jewish communities exist in such countries any longer. I'm also guessing that what remains - all told - would fall far below the 800K mark; although I'd have to go digging-up demographic stats in order to be certain.

and those jews from arab lands are living in Israel for the most part now. Arab states refuse to accept palestinians and keep them as refugees. Jordan offered them citizenship and passports as well as a position as PM for arafat. Arafat instead decided to try and over throw King Hussein which led to Black September.
Citizenship was withdrawn in the WB. A few thousand that were granted citizenship in Lebanon has also been withdrawn for their actions in Lebanon.

Try and be nice....

The Palestinians in Jordan are all citizens. The Palestinians in the West Bank also still have Jordanian citizenship.

And here is what HRW has to say about this

Jordan: Stop Withdrawing Nationality from Palestinian-Origin Citizens | Human Rights Watch

Jordan should stop withdrawing nationality arbitrarily from Jordanians of Palestinian origin, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today. Authorities stripped more than 2,700 of these Jordanians of their nationality between 2004 and 2008, and the practice continued in 2009, Human Rights Watch said.


SO ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE A LIAR

 

[Phoenall]

you are distorting history...the 67 war was a pre-emptive strike planned as a land grab by israeli leaders...they raised tensions, but the fact is the arabs had 100,000 soldiers at israel's border while israel had a 150,000 with far superior weaponry. The proof: Six days and the land grab of jerusalem in your prayers.

The bullshiite stops here. I want to see peace to the 67 borders to make up for this travesty...peace and more importantly acceptance can only end this regional conflict.

Israel is an invading force not a defending one that you push...

i am distorting history??? You people that think israel was the aggressor in the 6 day war are a minority. You really think israel would have attacked had egypt and syria not massed troops by its borders????
why did the arab mass their troops at the border for, while making threats of annihalation?
Why would israel risk its existence by attacking all those countries (who were backed by other states) that were 500 times its size? And if it was a planned land grab, why did israel offer the golan back to syria and the sinai back to egypt?
As for capturing the west bank, israel begged jordan not to join the war, but they did. So you can't claim that israel's pre emptive strike was to take over the west bank.

[b]the proof: Six days and the land grab of jerusalem in your prayers.[/b]

huh? What do you mean ?

the arabs were posturing...they never had a chance of success...that's why historians note it a pre-emptive strike...as for jerusalem, poetic license for effect...israel wanted jerusalem not the west bank and that is their position today.

and the arabs wanted the land from the river to the sea, and still do as all their charters prove

 

[pbel]

You need to understand something concerning the expulsion of the Palestinians.

It happened mainly during the 47-48 Mandatory Palestine Civil war AND the 1948 Arab Israeli war, where BOTH SIDES were pushing each other away. During the 1948 war, the Palestinians joined the 5 Arab armies in trying to destroy Israel and push the Jews to the sea. The Jews pushed BACK, and won, resulting in the expelling of many Palestinians. Had the Arabs won, every Jew would have been expelled (and expelling the Jews meant pushing them in the sea since no Arab state would take them BACK in)

But they didn't, they lost. And all this complaining about how so many Palestinians were expelled is just being a sore loser.
That's what they get for their Arab so called 'brothers' ( ) trying to destroy the newly founded state of Israel.

And you\d think they learned their lesson?? NOPE. In 1967, the Arab states did the same thing and lost AGAIN, resulting in more expelled Palestinians

You are distorting history...the 67 war was a pre-emptive strike planned as a land grab by Israeli leaders...They raised tensions, but the fact is the Arabs had 100,000 soldiers at Israel's border while Israel had a 150,000 with far superior weaponry. The proof: six days and the Land Grab of Jerusalem in your prayers.

The Bullshiite stops here. I want to see peace to the 67 borders to make up for this travesty...Peace and more importantly Acceptance can only end this regional conflict.

Israel is an invading force not a defending one that you push...

AND YOU ARE LYING

Which land did they grab then that was not handed back in the fullness of time. As for Jerusalem that was majority Jewish owned land taken in the 1948 land grab by Jordan.
The arabs stopped the Israeli ships from passing through the straights of Tiran which was a breach of Maritime law and the Geneva conventions.
Just what are these '67 borders and can you produce a legal document that states '67 borders. All I can find is UN res 242 that says :-

Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict

No mention of any borders is there, that is an islamonazi LIE spread to justify their continual attacks on Jewish children.

Majority ownership has nothing to do with sovereignty...It is your Zionist distortions that are lies...An academy award for you...your lies are impeccable.

Still waiting for your sanity certification

 

[Phoenall]

Huh?? Where did you read that??

But you do have things a bit mixed up. It is the Palestinians who should thank Israel for not expelling every single one of them after the 6 day war and then AGAIN after the yom kippur war. Everyone though Moshe Dayan would expel them, but he let hundreds of thousands stay.

Had the Arabs won either war, there would not be a single Jew living between the river and the sea.

Flapan maintains that events in Nazareth, although ending differently, point to the existence of a definite pattern of expulsion. On 16 July, three days after the Lydda and Ramlah evictions, the city of Nazareth surrendered to the IDF. The officer in command, a Canadian Jew named Ben Dunkelman, had signed the surrender agreement on behalf of the Israeli army along with Chaim Laskov (then a brigadier general, later IDF chief of staff). The agreement assured the civilians that they would not be harmed, but the next day, Laskov handed Dunkelman an order to evacuate the population, which Dunkelman refused.[

1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One swallow does not a summer make.

But what about this from just above your cut and paste,

What would they do with the 50,000 civilians in the two cities.... Not even Ben-Gurion could offer a solution, and during the discussion at operation headquarters, he remained silent, as was his habit in such situations. Clearly, we could not leave [Lydda's] hostile and armed populace in our rear, where it could endanger the supply route [to the troops who were] advancing eastward.... Allon repeated the question: What is to be done with the population? Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture that said: Drive them out!