I will not Bow!

[Phoenall]

Well you still didn't tell me what countries. Either way, if they wanted to use CW on Israel, they would have already.

Think of a War of Attrition like the Cold War between the USA and the USSR, it was bankrupting both countries...

Isreali weapons are cheap as they have the raw materials to hand. It is the Hostiles that have to import them and the ammunition. All they have otherwise are qassams and IED's, and the IED's are worse than useless if they cant get close enough to use them.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Sometimes you have to apply your comprehensive skills.

Do you have a link that says that?

(COMMENT)

The link is right here.

The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine.

SOURCE: The Palestine Order in Council

We are using the commutative property of addition in logic.

• 3+4=4+3
  • Territory of Mandate for Palestine = Palestine
  • Palestine = Territory of Mandate for Palestine
    • If the Territory of Mandate for Palestine = 0 (Zero)
    • Then Palestine = 0 (Zero)
      • No Territory of Mandate for Palestine
      • Then No Palestine

There is more to the discussion than just using the copy'n'paste function and someone else's ideas to make your point. Sometimes, you have to be able to use your personal skill in critical thinking and logic.

Most Respectfully,
R

Quote the passage that confirms what you say.

THIS ONE

The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine.

 

[Phoenall]

Quote the passage that confirms what you say.

Stop it Tinmore. Your claim has been proved wrong ! Give it up !
Why are you so scared to admit you were wrong ?

No it hasn't.

Where is that quote?

Your whole argument was destroyed when it was shown that your source was biased and racially motivated against the Jews. He twisted his sources till they met with his racist and biased POV, and you blindly accepted the racism and bias as fact.

Here is the quote you want

The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

At the conclusion to the British Mandate, the Successor Government was the UN Palestine Commission.

The memorandum, transmitted to the Commission by the British Delegation to the United Nations, sets forth the position of the Mandatory Power with respect to the question of the successor government in Palestine after the termination of the British mandate. Pertinent excerpts from the memorandum are as follows:

"Palestine is today a legal entity but it is not a sovereign state. Palestine is a territory administered under mandate by His Majesty (in respect of the United Kingdom), who is entirely responsible both for its internal administration and for its foreign affairs.

"After the 15th May, 1948, Palestine will continue to be a legal entity but it will still not be a sovereign state because it will not be immediately self-governing. The authority responsible for its administration will, however, have changed.

"Where the sovereignty of Palestine lies at the present time is a disputed and perhaps academic legal question about which writers have expressed a number of different conclusions. Where the sovereignty of Palestine will lie after the 15th May, 1948, is perhaps also a question on which different views will be held, but so far as His Majesty's Government are aware, it is a question which it is unnecessary to answer in connection with any practical issues.​

"After the 15th May, 1948, the United Nations Commission will be the Government of Palestine. It does not seem very material whether it is considered to be the de facto or the de jure Government. In any case, its title to be the Government of Palestine will rest on the resolution of the General Assembly.

SOURCE: PAL/138 27 February 1948

(COMMENT)

You demand quotes that are worded such to support your agenda. Sometimes that is not possible. Sometimes, a little gray matter activity is required.

The entire purpose to the Successor Government (the UNPC) was to implement GA/RES/181(II), ending Palestine as a Territory under Mandate, and the establishment of independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem. This effectively ends "Palestine" as any kind of entity.

Establishment of the Commission

The resolution on the Future Government of Palestine, as adopted by the General Assembly at its one hundred twenty-eighth meeting on 29 November 1947, in paragraph 1, Section B, Part I, that “A Commission shall be set up consisting of one representatives of each of five Member States.” This Commission was charged with direct responsibility for implementing the measures recommended by the General Assembly.​

SOURCE: A/AC.21/7 29 January 1948

The Arab Higher Committee (AHC) rejected the Partition Plan and the allocated apportionment for the Arab State.

Thus, after the Declaration of Independence (DoI) for Israel, Jerusalem as a fractured city, and the unapportioned territory for the Arab State remained. Palestine was reduced and became the unallocated portion of the "former territory under the British Mandate." The new Palestine (State of) did not come into being until its DoI November 1988.

I hope this answers your question.

Most Respectfully,
R

I thought that the right to self determination without external interference included the right to their own government not one imposed on them by foreigners.

Which they have, it is called the P.A. which was an interim governing body until they had made peace and settled into their new nation. The only government forced on them by foreign powers was the arab one that started to whole problem.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Sometimes you have to apply your comprehensive skills.


(COMMENT)

The link is right here.



We are using the commutative property of addition in logic.

• 3+4=4+3
  • Territory of Mandate for Palestine = Palestine
  • Palestine = Territory of Mandate for Palestine
    • If the Territory of Mandate for Palestine = 0 (Zero)
    • Then Palestine = 0 (Zero)
      • No Territory of Mandate for Palestine
      • Then No Palestine

There is more to the discussion than just using the copy'n'paste function and someone else's ideas to make your point. Sometimes, you have to be able to use your personal skill in critical thinking and logic.

Most Respectfully,
R

Quote the passage that confirms what you say.

THIS ONE

The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine.

Rocco "forgot" to mention that this order was when Palestine was still a British occupied territory of Turkey.

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I guess I have to use less complicated language. I'm always being misunderstood.

So you are saying that the Arabs were an external interference to foreigners creating their state in Palestine?

(COMMENT)

I think I said: Arab League military forces was a form of "external interference."

Military elements of 5 separate Arab nations crossed their borders and forceable entered the sovereign territory for the newly declared State of Israel.

Note: This does not include the prepositioned, forward deployed elements of the Arab League.​

So, yes! In the case of the Arab League, they were an "external interference" to the UNPC implementation of the Partition Plan; "by the recommendations of the General Assembly and by such instructions as the Security Council may consider necessary to issue."

Most Respectfully,
R

You never did show where those Arab armies crossed the border into Israel.

Your point ? They crossed over into the land between the river and the sea. Is that better? That is external interference. Stop playing games Tinmore.

 

[toastman]

Quote the passage that confirms what you say.

THIS ONE

The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine.

Rocco "forgot" to mention that this order was when Palestine was still a British occupied territory of Turkey.

Now, about that link that says Palestine was still there when the mandate left........

 

[ForeverYoung436]

THIS ONE

The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine.

Rocco "forgot" to mention that this order was when Palestine was still a British occupied territory of Turkey.

Now, about that link that says Palestine was still there when the mandate left........

You don't seem to realize, toastman, that these posts are just notes from a class that Tinmore is teaching in "Palestinian Abstract Philosophy 101".

 

[Phoenall]

Quote the passage that confirms what you say.

THIS ONE

The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine.

Rocco "forgot" to mention that this order was when Palestine was still a British occupied territory of Turkey.

Like you forgot to add that Palestine was never mentioned in the links you provided and said it was.
You asked for the proof and got it so stop trying to lay the blame on others.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is not really debatable; merely a matter of record.

You never did show where those Arab armies crossed the border into Israel.

(COMMENT)

Whether you consider the territory to be Israel, or territory under the protection and guidance of the UN through the Successor Government (the UNPC), each of the 5 Armies crossed the international boundaries of their respective nations and entered a territory beyond their sovereignty to intentionally interfere with the implementation of a General Assembly Resolution.

It doesn't matter if you recognize the boundaries of Israel. The "external interference" happened when the Armies of the Arab League entered the territory under the protection and control of the UN for the purpose of conducting hostile activities. Those forces went beyond their respective borders, to interrupt the lawful activities of the UN and the Successor Government; which was an act of aggression on the part of the 5 participating Armies of the Arab League (an external interference).

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Kondor3]

Yeppers...

This idea of "It doesn't matter if we invaded, because your borders were not well-defined at the time" - ignoring the quantifiable and demonstrable land-mass under control of both parties at the moment of the termination of the Mandate - and ignoring invader interference with communications (food supplies to Jerusalem and other settlements) borders on irrationality.

It has the look and feel (and smell) of a fourth-grade recess-yard exercise in sophistry.

Not exactly the mark of an all-'round high-caliber intellectual exercise.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think I had the date inserted appropriately.

Rocco "forgot" to mention that this order was when Palestine was still a British occupied territory of Turkey.

(COMMENT)

The British Occupation of the formerly enemy held territory actually ended 1 July 1920, when the interim civil administration of territory actually began (a proto-Mandate period); pursuant arrangements and agreements between the Allied Powers.

The Palestinian Order in Council was issued 10 August 1922; and with the Permanent Mandate for Palestine of 12 August 1922, following two days later. Both the Order in Council and the Mandate were issued over two years after the beginning of British civil administration; with each being consistent with the other; and neither contradicting the basics policies laid out in the Interim Civil Administration.

I am not sure what meaning this has, or what our friend P F Tinmore is implying. There was no slight of hand intended here. I did not forget to insert the complete date; BUT have a direct link to the UN Document.

(APOLOGY)

If I appeared to be dishonest, I assure you it was unintended; and I sincerely apologized for not inserting a complete date or historical period reference.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[montelatici]

It is clear to me that Europeans, starting in the late 1800s, began settling in Palestine supported by the occupying power of the time, either Turkey or UK, against the wishes of the indigenous Christians and Muslims. Having been dispossessed, these Christians and Muslims probably had a gripe against the European settlers. I can understand their position. Unfortunately, outside of providing them for them financially (the fault lies with the British, French and Americans who supported the ethnic cleansing of the local Christians and Muslims so they should foot the bill), there is no way Israel will allow a Palestinian state to be established. Those non-Jews within Palestine will have to submit to a role of second-class citizens until such time that the non-Jews become a majority, then all bets are off.

 

[Kondor3]

It is clear to me that Europeans, starting in the late 1800s, began settling in Palestine supported by the occupying power of the time, either Turkey or UK, against the wishes of the indigenous Christians and Muslims. Having been dispossessed, these Christians and Muslims probably had a gripe against the European settlers. I can understand their position. Unfortunately, outside of providing them for them financially (the fault lies with the British, French and Americans who supported the ethnic cleansing of the local Christians and Muslims so they should foot the bill), there is no way Israel will allow a Palestinian state to be established. Those non-Jews within Palestine will have to submit to a role of second-class citizens until such time that the non-Jews become a majority, then all bets are off.

There is some considerable merit in what you say here.

I disagree with the bit about non-Jews becoming the majority.

Why?

One need look no further than the Palestinians' own maps of their dwindling lands...

The remaining Muslim-Arabs will be expelled into Jordan and Lebanon long before such 'demographics' pressure can be brought to bear.

The Jews have been waiting 2000 years to take back their Homeland.

They're not about to let Demographics Pressure take that away from them again.

In the words of that old Cajun chef, Justin Wilson...

I garrrrre-rownnnnn-teeeee.

 

[Sally]

It is clear to me that Europeans, starting in the late 1800s, began settling in Palestine supported by the occupying power of the time, either Turkey or UK, against the wishes of the indigenous Christians and Muslims. Having been dispossessed, these Christians and Muslims probably had a gripe against the European settlers. I can understand their position. Unfortunately, outside of providing them for them financially (the fault lies with the British, French and Americans who supported the ethnic cleansing of the local Christians and Muslims so they should foot the bill), there is no way Israel will allow a Palestinian state to be established. Those non-Jews within Palestine will have to submit to a role of second-class citizens until such time that the non-Jews become a majority, then all bets are off.

Now are you really suggesting that the British officials in the area were lying when they said Arabs flooded into the area from their poor surrounding countries for the jobs the Jews had for them? Why do you think the Hispanics are coming across our Southern border in great numbers, the same as poor Muslims are flooding into Europe and the Western hemisphere. Perhaps you are the one to tell that Egyptian official that he is wrong with his statement that the Gazans should come back to Egypt.

 

[Phoenall]

It is clear to me that Europeans, starting in the late 1800s, began settling in Palestine supported by the occupying power of the time, either Turkey or UK, against the wishes of the indigenous Christians and Muslims. Having been dispossessed, these Christians and Muslims probably had a gripe against the European settlers. I can understand their position. Unfortunately, outside of providing them for them financially (the fault lies with the British, French and Americans who supported the ethnic cleansing of the local Christians and Muslims so they should foot the bill), there is no way Israel will allow a Palestinian state to be established. Those non-Jews within Palestine will have to submit to a role of second-class citizens until such time that the non-Jews become a majority, then all bets are off.

You can of course show a creditable link to the allegations you are making. The only history of migration from the 1800's shows a marked rise in arab migration due to the promise of work on Jewish farms.

 

[montelatici]

It is clear to me that Europeans, starting in the late 1800s, began settling in Palestine supported by the occupying power of the time, either Turkey or UK, against the wishes of the indigenous Christians and Muslims. Having been dispossessed, these Christians and Muslims probably had a gripe against the European settlers. I can understand their position. Unfortunately, outside of providing them for them financially (the fault lies with the British, French and Americans who supported the ethnic cleansing of the local Christians and Muslims so they should foot the bill), there is no way Israel will allow a Palestinian state to be established. Those non-Jews within Palestine will have to submit to a role of second-class citizens until such time that the non-Jews become a majority, then all bets are off.

You can of course show a creditable link to the allegations you are making. The only history of migration from the 1800's shows a marked rise in arab migration due to the promise of work on Jewish farms.

There are facts and then there is propaganda.

From UN archives, report of the Mandatory to the League of Nations 1931.

3. Of the 5,533 immigrants registered during the year, 269 with 338 dependants belonged to the class of capitalists with means, including long-term loans, amounting to £P1,000 per family and upwards. 1,896 with 620 dependants were members of the working class; 1,058 were near relatives and dependants of residents in Palestine; and 507 were men and women in religious occupations, elderly dependants of residents abroad, orphans, and students. Among these classes were the following Jews:--233 capitalists with 286 dependants; 1,603 working men and women with 569 dependants; 813 dependants on residents in Palestine; and 57 men and women in religious occupations, elderly dependants of residents abroad, orphans, and students......

As recorded, 5,533 immigrants (2,293 men, 2,323 women, and 917 children) were admitted, including 4,075 Jews (1,604 men, 1,863 women, and 608 children). Among these immigrants were 1,580 persons who were in Palestine illegally (Jews 939, Christians 502, Moslems 137, Druzes 2) but received permission to remain permanently in the country. 2,701 of the immigrants came from Europe east of a line drawn from Danzig to Trieste, 1,146 from North Africa and Western Asia including `Iraq, Persia, and Afghanistan, 341 from Central Europe, 382 from the United States of America, and 546 (including 197 British Police) from the British Empire (apart from Aden, which is included in Western Asia).


"

 

[montelatici]

I cannot post links but just Google:

REPORT

by His Majesty's Government in the United
Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
Ireland to the Council of the League of
Nations on the Administration of

PALESTINE AND TRANS-JORDAN

FOR THE YEAR

1931

 

[Indeependent]

Mon,
Did the UN have any validity during WWI&II or should every nation border defined by the UN during that timespan be up for grabs?

 

[IlarMeilyr]

Mon,
Did the UN have any validity during WWI&II or should every nation border defined by the UN during that timespan be up for grabs?

The UN did not exist in WWI. It did not exist in WWII.

And even if it had existed in those periods, what it said could hardly be "binding" on indigenous people anyway.