I will not Bow!

[GISMYS]

Yes!!!ww111 starts in the mideast as nations try to destroy israel and then become ww111 over two billion will die but god protects tiny israel and israel will see and know their victory was from god and they will confess and repent. Ptl.

 

[GISMYS]

ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED,GOD'S LOVE FOR ISRAEL IS ETERNAL!!! PTL.ROMANS 11:26-36==For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,


“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”

27
“This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

 

[montelatici]

Oh dear.

 

[Kondor3]

Yes!!!ww111 starts in the mideast as nations try to destroy israel and then become ww111 over two billion will die but god protects tiny israel and israel will see and know their victory was from god and they will confess and repent. Ptl.

You aren't by any chance a Muslim propaganda plant, are you?

I only ask because I'm fairly sure that when your posts are seen by Christians who support Israel, that they cringe at the thought that they, too, might be perceived as thinking in such terms.

In their place, I would be saying something akin to: "Please stay off our side."

 

[Phoenall]

It is clear to me that Europeans, starting in the late 1800s, began settling in Palestine supported by the occupying power of the time, either Turkey or UK, against the wishes of the indigenous Christians and Muslims. Having been dispossessed, these Christians and Muslims probably had a gripe against the European settlers. I can understand their position. Unfortunately, outside of providing them for them financially (the fault lies with the British, French and Americans who supported the ethnic cleansing of the local Christians and Muslims so they should foot the bill), there is no way Israel will allow a Palestinian state to be established. Those non-Jews within Palestine will have to submit to a role of second-class citizens until such time that the non-Jews become a majority, then all bets are off.

You can of course show a creditable link to the allegations you are making. The only history of migration from the 1800's shows a marked rise in arab migration due to the promise of work on Jewish farms.

There are facts and then there is propaganda.

From UN archives, report of the Mandatory to the League of Nations 1931.

3. Of the 5,533 immigrants registered during the year, 269 with 338 dependants belonged to the class of capitalists with means, including long-term loans, amounting to £P1,000 per family and upwards. 1,896 with 620 dependants were members of the working class; 1,058 were near relatives and dependants of residents in Palestine; and 507 were men and women in religious occupations, elderly dependants of residents abroad, orphans, and students. Among these classes were the following Jews:--233 capitalists with 286 dependants; 1,603 working men and women with 569 dependants; 813 dependants on residents in Palestine; and 57 men and women in religious occupations, elderly dependants of residents abroad, orphans, and students......

As recorded, 5,533 immigrants (2,293 men, 2,323 women, and 917 children) were admitted, including 4,075 Jews (1,604 men, 1,863 women, and 608 children). Among these immigrants were 1,580 persons who were in Palestine illegally (Jews 939, Christians 502, Moslems 137, Druzes 2) but received permission to remain permanently in the country. 2,701 of the immigrants came from Europe east of a line drawn from Danzig to Trieste, 1,146 from North Africa and Western Asia including `Iraq, Persia, and Afghanistan, 341 from Central Europe, 382 from the United States of America, and 546 (including 197 British Police) from the British Empire (apart from Aden, which is included in Western Asia).


"

So where does it say from the 1800's in your cut and paste ?

 

[Phoenall]

I cannot post links but just Google:

REPORT

by His Majesty's Government in the United
Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
Ireland to the Council of the League of
Nations on the Administration of

PALESTINE AND TRANS-JORDAN

FOR THE YEAR

1931

Still no mention of the 1800's in your post ...................

 

[montelatici]

You can of course show a creditable link to the allegations you are making. The only history of migration from the 1800's shows a marked rise in arab migration due to the promise of work on Jewish farms.

There are facts and then there is propaganda.

From UN archives, report of the Mandatory to the League of Nations 1931.

3. Of the 5,533 immigrants registered during the year, 269 with 338 dependants belonged to the class of capitalists with means, including long-term loans, amounting to £P1,000 per family and upwards. 1,896 with 620 dependants were members of the working class; 1,058 were near relatives and dependants of residents in Palestine; and 507 were men and women in religious occupations, elderly dependants of residents abroad, orphans, and students. Among these classes were the following Jews:--233 capitalists with 286 dependants; 1,603 working men and women with 569 dependants; 813 dependants on residents in Palestine; and 57 men and women in religious occupations, elderly dependants of residents abroad, orphans, and students......

As recorded, 5,533 immigrants (2,293 men, 2,323 women, and 917 children) were admitted, including 4,075 Jews (1,604 men, 1,863 women, and 608 children). Among these immigrants were 1,580 persons who were in Palestine illegally (Jews 939, Christians 502, Moslems 137, Druzes 2) but received permission to remain permanently in the country. 2,701 of the immigrants came from Europe east of a line drawn from Danzig to Trieste, 1,146 from North Africa and Western Asia including `Iraq, Persia, and Afghanistan, 341 from Central Europe, 382 from the United States of America, and 546 (including 197 British Police) from the British Empire (apart from Aden, which is included in Western Asia).


"

So where does it say from the 1800's in your cut and paste ?

You will have to go to the UN archives yourself to see other annual reports and info on population, as I am unable to post links.

In any case between 1851 and 1895 the European Jewish population of Palestine went from 13,000 to 47,000. More than tripled. The Arab population (including in those days local Jews who were called Jewish Arabs and made up about 2 % of the population) grew from 327,000 to 522,000 a normal growth rate for almost half a century.

 

[SAYIT]

There are facts and then there is propaganda.

From UN archives, report of the Mandatory to the League of Nations 1931.

3. Of the 5,533 immigrants registered during the year, 269 with 338 dependants belonged to the class of capitalists with means, including long-term loans, amounting to £P1,000 per family and upwards. 1,896 with 620 dependants were members of the working class; 1,058 were near relatives and dependants of residents in Palestine; and 507 were men and women in religious occupations, elderly dependants of residents abroad, orphans, and students. Among these classes were the following Jews:--233 capitalists with 286 dependants; 1,603 working men and women with 569 dependants; 813 dependants on residents in Palestine; and 57 men and women in religious occupations, elderly dependants of residents abroad, orphans, and students......

As recorded, 5,533 immigrants (2,293 men, 2,323 women, and 917 children) were admitted, including 4,075 Jews (1,604 men, 1,863 women, and 608 children). Among these immigrants were 1,580 persons who were in Palestine illegally (Jews 939, Christians 502, Moslems 137, Druzes 2) but received permission to remain permanently in the country. 2,701 of the immigrants came from Europe east of a line drawn from Danzig to Trieste, 1,146 from North Africa and Western Asia including `Iraq, Persia, and Afghanistan, 341 from Central Europe, 382 from the United States of America, and 546 (including 197 British Police) from the British Empire (apart from Aden, which is included in Western Asia).


"

So where does it say from the 1800's in your cut and paste ?

You will have to go to the UN archives yourself to see other annual reports and info on population, as I am unable to post links.

In any case between 1851 and 1895 the European Jewish population of Palestine went from 13,000 to 47,000. More than tripled. The Arab population (including in those days local Jews who were called Jewish Arabs and made up about 2 % of the population) grew from 327,000 to 522,000 a normal growth rate for almost half a century.

Whoa! So according to your numbers the Jewish pop grew by 34,000 in the last half of the 19th century and the Gentile pop grew by only 195,000. No wonder they were driven to attack their Jewish neighbors! The harried Gentiles were surrounded by those Jews!

 

[montelatici]

So where does it say from the 1800's in your cut and paste ?

You will have to go to the UN archives yourself to see other annual reports and info on population, as I am unable to post links.

In any case between 1851 and 1895 the European Jewish population of Palestine went from 13,000 to 47,000. More than tripled. The Arab population (including in those days local Jews who were called Jewish Arabs and made up about 2 % of the population) grew from 327,000 to 522,000 a normal growth rate for almost half a century.

Whoa! So according to your numbers the Jewish pop grew by 34,000 in the last half of the 19th century and the Gentile pop grew by only 195,000. No wonder they were driven to attack their Jewish neighbors! The harried Gentiles were surrounded by those Jews!

I guess you are used to communicating with morons. The European population more than tripled, i.e. grew over 300%, while the indigenous population Muslim, Jewish and Christian increased by about 30% in the same 45 year period.

 

[Sally]

You will have to go to the UN archives yourself to see other annual reports and info on population, as I am unable to post links.

In any case between 1851 and 1895 the European Jewish population of Palestine went from 13,000 to 47,000. More than tripled. The Arab population (including in those days local Jews who were called Jewish Arabs and made up about 2 % of the population) grew from 327,000 to 522,000 a normal growth rate for almost half a century.

Whoa! So according to your numbers the Jewish pop grew by 34,000 in the last half of the 19th century and the Gentile pop grew by only 195,000. No wonder they were driven to attack their Jewish neighbors! The harried Gentiles were surrounded by those Jews!

I guess you are used to communicating with morons. The European population more than tripled, i.e. grew over 300%, while the indigenous population Muslim, Jewish and Christian increased by about 30% in the same 45 year period.

I don't believe that anyone here with any smarts at all thinks that Sayit, a sharp fellow, communicates with morons. Possibly you can give us the facts you are stating from some regular encyclopedia, like the Encyclopedia Britannica or from some history department at a major university. I am sure something like this would be covered in a Middle East history department..

 

[montelatici]

Whoa! So according to your numbers the Jewish pop grew by 34,000 in the last half of the 19th century and the Gentile pop grew by only 195,000. No wonder they were driven to attack their Jewish neighbors! The harried Gentiles were surrounded by those Jews!

I guess you are used to communicating with morons. The European population more than tripled, i.e. grew over 300%, while the indigenous population Muslim, Jewish and Christian increased by about 30% in the same 45 year period.

I don't believe that anyone here with any smarts at all thinks that Sayit, a sharp fellow, communicates with morons. Possibly you can give us the facts you are stating from some regular encyclopedia, like the Encyclopedia Britannica or from some history department at a major university. I am sure something like this would be covered in a Middle East history department..

I cannot post links, it is not allowed until one has posted a certain number of posts. I have stated this a number of times. I have provided text to google to reach the various archives. That's the best I can do.

 

[Ronin]

Yes!!!ww111 starts in the mideast as nations try to destroy israel and then become ww111 over two billion will die but god protects tiny israel and israel will see and know their victory was from god and they will confess and repent. Ptl.

You aren't by any chance a Muslim propaganda plant, are you?

I only ask because I'm fairly sure that when your posts are seen by Christians who support Israel, that they cringe at the thought that they, too, might be perceived as thinking in such terms.

In their place, I would be saying something akin to: "Please stay off our side."

I'm starting to think he is a devil worshipper who is cleverly (or not so) using reverse psychology to turn people away from Christianity.

 

[Sally]

I guess you are used to communicating with morons. The European population more than tripled, i.e. grew over 300%, while the indigenous population Muslim, Jewish and Christian increased by about 30% in the same 45 year period.

I don't believe that anyone here with any smarts at all thinks that Sayit, a sharp fellow, communicates with morons. Possibly you can give us the facts you are stating from some regular encyclopedia, like the Encyclopedia Britannica or from some history department at a major university. I am sure something like this would be covered in a Middle East history department..

I cannot post links, it is not allowed until one has posted a certain number of posts. I have stated this a number of times. I have provided text to google to reach the various archives. That's the best I can do.

Tell you what. When you have the required number of posts, come back here and give us some info from a regular encyclopedia or a history department at a major university.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is not really debatable; merely a matter of record.

You never did show where those Arab armies crossed the border into Israel.

(COMMENT)

Whether you consider the territory to be Israel, or territory under the protection and guidance of the UN through the Successor Government (the UNPC), each of the 5 Armies crossed the international boundaries of their respective nations and entered a territory beyond their sovereignty to intentionally interfere with the implementation of a General Assembly Resolution.

It doesn't matter if you recognize the boundaries of Israel. The "external interference" happened when the Armies of the Arab League entered the territory under the protection and control of the UN for the purpose of conducting hostile activities. Those forces went beyond their respective borders, to interrupt the lawful activities of the UN and the Successor Government; which was an act of aggression on the part of the 5 participating Armies of the Arab League (an external interference).

Most Respectfully,
R

The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect Palestine.

How do you call that interference?

 

[Ronin]

I guess you are used to communicating with morons. The European population more than tripled, i.e. grew over 300%, while the indigenous population Muslim, Jewish and Christian increased by about 30% in the same 45 year period.

I don't believe that anyone here with any smarts at all thinks that Sayit, a sharp fellow, communicates with morons. Possibly you can give us the facts you are stating from some regular encyclopedia, like the Encyclopedia Britannica or from some history department at a major university. I am sure something like this would be covered in a Middle East history department..

I cannot post links, it is not allowed until one has posted a certain number of posts. I have stated this a number of times. I have provided text to google to reach the various archives. That's the best I can do.

I’m new to these forums as well. I will say most of the people who post here have done more research than those in other forums I experienced in the past. If you read through some of the other threads it won’t be long before you realize most all threads about this issue could be combined into one long ongoing thread. The debates seem to all end up on the same points.

IMHO it is a matter of historical interpretation. In other words, regardless of the source, people are going to take away what they want to take away from historical documentation. Example: the British census from that time documented an Arab majority. A census done by the British would seem to be as close to reliable as possible for historical record. Someone from another point of view will see it as being inaccurate and provide sources with reasons why it is not reliable.

The links most (not all) post are telling when research is done on who is funding the site on both sides of the issue.

People on both sides don’t understand how any conclusion could be drawn other than the one they have arrived at with the amount of historical information available. Historical interpretation. Debate becomes nearly impossible when the Old Testament is placed as the fulcrum of historical reliability.

What it really seems to be is a place where people can go to vent their frustration about the topic. Perspectives are not going to change. Something else that makes this forum unique to any of the others I have seen is one can apparently throw out insults and not get banned. (I may be wrong about that- but they get pretty brutal here.)

For myself I attempt to refrain from even pulling historical sources. It’s difficult for me to presume I can post anything on this subject someone hasn’t already read and formulated to their own view one way or the other. What may be accomplished is an understanding of why someone thinks the way they do. I find the greatest interest in hearing what the members who live in Israel have to say. My view was completely opposite during the times I visited there than what it is today. I regret not be able to converse with some of the people I met about this issues debated here.

If you continue to post(I hope you do) try to refrain from giving in to easy insults. It detracts power from your points. Again, only my humble opinion. Good luck and debating!

 

[montelatici]

I post on other forums where the participants are not mostly Americans. Even the Israel supporters on those forums, some are Israeli, agree that the non-Jewish Palestinians have gotten a raw deal. Their position is usually that the non-Jews should accept Jewish rule and privilege because Israel is the only Jewish ruled state. I can live with that. What I cannot countenance is the vilification of a whole people that I see here. And, having lived with them (oh also , my father was a diplomat and I lived in Tunisia from the age of 10 thru 13), , I don't appreciate the Arab mindset but yet, the vilification I see here is too much. They (the Arabs) are an obnoxious lot, they are always trying to screw you, but still they are humans.

I hope that Israel will survive as a progressive western society, but I think their current policies are self- destructive.

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is not really debatable; merely a matter of record.

You never did show where those Arab armies crossed the border into Israel.

(COMMENT)

Whether you consider the territory to be Israel, or territory under the protection and guidance of the UN through the Successor Government (the UNPC), each of the 5 Armies crossed the international boundaries of their respective nations and entered a territory beyond their sovereignty to intentionally interfere with the implementation of a General Assembly Resolution.

It doesn't matter if you recognize the boundaries of Israel. The "external interference" happened when the Armies of the Arab League entered the territory under the protection and control of the UN for the purpose of conducting hostile activities. Those forces went beyond their respective borders, to interrupt the lawful activities of the UN and the Successor Government; which was an act of aggression on the part of the 5 participating Armies of the Arab League (an external interference).

Most Respectfully,
R

The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect Palestine.

How do you call that interference?

Protect Palestine HAHAHAH!!! And you accuse others of posting propaganda

BTW, you just asked how is it that 5 countries entering into another people's territory to join a war that does not involve them is interference.

If there was ever a time that this emoticon was needed, it's right now:




BTW, if they went in to protect the 'Palestinians', why didn't that happen ?

 

[Ronin]

I post on other forums where the participants are not mostly Americans. Even the Israel supporters on those forums, some are Israeli, agree that the non-Jewish Palestinians have gotten a raw deal. Their position is usually that the non-Jews should accept Jewish rule and privilege because Israel is the only Jewish ruled state. I can live with that. What I cannot countenance is the vilification of a whole people that I see here. And, having lived with them (oh also , my father was a diplomat and I lived in Tunisia from the age of 10 thru 13), , I don't appreciate the Arab mindset but yet, the vilification I see here is too much. They (the Arabs) are an obnoxious lot, they are always trying to screw you, but still they are humans.

I hope that Israel will survive as a progressive western society, but I think their current policies are self- destructive.

Zionists and most Christians which have a majority of the influence that funds some of Israel's arsenal will view any aggression from the Palestinian side as terrorism and Israel only defending itself. Right of return aside continued settlement expansion in the West Bank is not seen as an aggressive act but that similar to American Manifest Destiny.

The vilification goes deeper than that. The very story Israel uses as its spiritual basis for operating the way it has teaches at a foundational level Arabs are the "ass of man". I understand that Christians think Israel has to be a state in order for the end of this world to happen. I have never understood how they can really get along though. The Jewish people I have spoke with pretty much denounce the idea of Christ being God.

 

[montelatici]

I post on other forums where the participants are not mostly Americans. Even the Israel supporters on those forums, some are Israeli, agree that the non-Jewish Palestinians have gotten a raw deal. Their position is usually that the non-Jews should accept Jewish rule and privilege because Israel is the only Jewish ruled state. I can live with that. What I cannot countenance is the vilification of a whole people that I see here. And, having lived with them (oh also , my father was a diplomat and I lived in Tunisia from the age of 10 thru 13), , I don't appreciate the Arab mindset but yet, the vilification I see here is too much. They (the Arabs) are an obnoxious lot, they are always trying to screw you, but still they are humans.

I hope that Israel will survive as a progressive western society, but I think their current policies are self- destructive.

Zionists and most Christians which have a majority of the influence that funds some of Israel's arsenal will view any aggression from the Palestinian side as terrorism and Israel only defending itself. Right of return aside continued settlement expansion in the West Bank is not seen as an aggressive act but that similar to American Manifest Destiny.

The vilification goes deeper than that. The very story Israel uses as its spiritual basis for operating the way it has teaches at a foundational level Arabs are the "ass of man". I understand that Christians think Israel has to be a state in order for the end of this world to happen. I have never understood how they can really get along though. The Jewish people I have spoke with pretty much denounce the idea of Christ being God.

American Christians do not realize that Jews consider Jesus Christ a charlatan.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think I had the date inserted appropriately.

Rocco "forgot" to mention that this order was when Palestine was still a British occupied territory of Turkey.

(COMMENT)

The British Occupation of the formerly enemy held territory actually ended 1 July 1920, when the interim civil administration of territory actually began (a proto-Mandate period); pursuant arrangements and agreements between the Allied Powers.

The Palestinian Order in Council was issued 10 August 1922; and with the Permanent Mandate for Palestine of 12 August 1922, following two days later. Both the Order in Council and the Mandate were issued over two years after the beginning of British civil administration; with each being consistent with the other; and neither contradicting the basics policies laid out in the Interim Civil Administration.

I am not sure what meaning this has, or what our friend P F Tinmore is implying. There was no slight of hand intended here. I did not forget to insert the complete date; BUT have a direct link to the UN Document.

(APOLOGY)

If I appeared to be dishonest, I assure you it was unintended; and I sincerely apologized for not inserting a complete date or historical period reference.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco,

You post a lot of stuff that does not confirm your point. In this post alone "administration" was used to define the British in Palestine. The League of Nations Covenant said that mandates were to render administrative assistance and advice until the people could stand alone.

Your claim that there never was a Palestine and there never were Palestinians just doesn't hold water. Everything I see points away from that premise.