I will not Bow!

[montelatici]

montelatici, et al,

Let's shed a little light here.


(COMMENT)

I don't think I said that; or even implied that. I have often said that the Arab Palestinian has some legitimate grievances and claims. It is the means by which they attempt to settle those grievances and claims that I have taken issue.

This is the difference between peaceful means (example BDS) and hostile means (example terror tactics).

The Jihadist and Fedayeen are hostile, and anyone that supports, encourages or facilitates them is culpable and criminal.

No Palestinian has any special exemption to participate in an armed struggle against the State of Israel.


(COMMENT)

I don't like to make comparisons between cultures. In all of human history, you probably could not come up with a total of a 1000 years where the planet was at peace. It is a rarity to find a period of time absent conflict somewhere.

If I'm discussing Palestine (whatever that is defined to be), then I tend to stick to what is applicable to that conflict. I don't inject the cultural difficulties of a totally disconnected society.

Most Respectfully,
R

Yes, let's shed some light.

1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.

2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.

5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.

6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

7. All States shall observe faithfully and strictly the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the present Declaration on the basis of equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of all States, and respect for the sovereign rights of all peoples and their territorial integrity.

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration

Sounds like the Muslims-Arab Palestinians should have said 'yes' to the UN Partition Plan of 1947

It's over.

Why should the Palestinians, especially the Christians who stood to lose the most having the most homes in Jewish areas, have agreed to give up their homes and lands to a bunch of European settlers?

 

[Kondor3]

Yes, let's shed some light.

Sounds like the Muslims-Arab Palestinians should have said 'yes' to the UN Partition Plan of 1947

It's over.

Why should the Palestinians, especially the Christians who stood to lose the most having the most homes in Jewish areas, have agreed to give up their homes and lands to a bunch of European settlers?

Because the United Nations proposal had the backing of the so-called international community and international law and would have given both sides a piece of land to call their own without shedding one drop of blood?

One need look no further than their present miserable, self-inflicted condition, to discern the 'wisdom' of having made the 'other' choice.

They can thank the shade of the former Grand Mufti and his fascist followers for that one.

 

[montelatici]

Sounds like the Muslims-Arab Palestinians should have said 'yes' to the UN Partition Plan of 1947

It's over.

Why should the Palestinians, especially the Christians who stood to lose the most having the most homes in Jewish areas, have agreed to give up their homes and lands to a bunch of European settlers?

Because the United Nations proposal had the backing of the so-called international community and international law and would have given both sides a piece of land to call their own without shedding one drop of blood?

One need look no further than their present miserable, self-inflicted condition, to discern the 'wisdom' of having made the 'other' choice.

They can thank the shade of the former Grand Mufti and his fascist followers for that one.

What does the Grand Mufti have to do with the plight of Palestinian Christians? Being the wealthiest of the Palestinians, they lost the most.

It's easy to say that "they should have" done this or done that, but in reality what people just lie down and allow others to take their land and homes away from them? Maybe the native americans should have just gone willingly into reservations without all the fighting against the Europeans that were taking their land, but do you fault them for resisting? Why do you fault the Christians and Muslims for resisting European occupation?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Sounds like the Muslims-Arab Palestinians should have said 'yes' to the UN Partition Plan of 1947

It's over.

Why should the Palestinians, especially the Christians who stood to lose the most having the most homes in Jewish areas, have agreed to give up their homes and lands to a bunch of European settlers?

Because the United Nations proposal had the backing of the so-called international community and international law and would have given both sides a piece of land to call their own without shedding one drop of blood?

One need look no further than their present miserable, self-inflicted condition, to discern the 'wisdom' of having made the 'other' choice.

They can thank the shade of the former Grand Mufti and his fascist followers for that one.

Yeah but that stupid plan flopped and didn't happen.

 

[Kondor3]

Why should the Palestinians, especially the Christians who stood to lose the most having the most homes in Jewish areas, have agreed to give up their homes and lands to a bunch of European settlers?

Because the United Nations proposal had the backing of the so-called international community and international law and would have given both sides a piece of land to call their own without shedding one drop of blood?

One need look no further than their present miserable, self-inflicted condition, to discern the 'wisdom' of having made the 'other' choice.

They can thank the shade of the former Grand Mufti and his fascist followers for that one.

What does the Grand Mufti have to do with the plight of Palestinian Christians? Being the wealthiest of the Palestinians, they lost the most.

Palestinian Muslims made the decisions that impacted their Christian neighbors, including the decision to fight rather than accept a United Nations -sponsored partition.

It's easy to say that "they should have" done this or done that, but in reality what people just lie down and allow others to take their land and homes away from them?...

Yeah. It IS easy to say that. Under the circumstances.

Given that they had no State of their own, that the Jews had purchased enough tracts of land to cobble-together a State of their own, and that the United Nations gave them an easy and sensible way out, which they failed to take, on the advice of their pan-Arab -focused Muslim-Arab neighbor-states.

"...Maybe the native americans should have just gone willingly into reservations without all the fighting against the Europeans that were taking their land, but do you fault them for resisting?..."

They chose Conflict rather than Peace, when the United Nations offered them a better way.

They now live with the consequences of that choice.

While they foolishly keep swinging long after the bell has sounded.

Comes a time to admit to one's self that the bell has rung.

"...Why do you fault the Christians and Muslims for resisting European occupation?"

First, a little perspective... Palestinian Christians only represented 10% of the so-called indigenous population prior to 1948, and today they only represent about 7-8% of it.

Second... I was not aware that Palestinian Christians had a sufficiently large and influential vote in Palestinian politics in order to drive the so-called 'resistance' process.

Third... I was not aware that Palestinian Christians had (a) mustered combat formations to fight against the Israelis or (b) were fighting in Palestinian-Muslim formations under Muslim command.

Isn't that the logical inference one would make, in order to discern whether Palestinian-Christians are substantively complicit in the so-called 'resistance'?

Ya learn something new every day.

 

[Phoenall]

Yes, let's shed some light.

What is your point?? How is this related to what Rocco posted??

In reality, it is submitted, it is the combination of the right of self-determination and the duty of the administering Power to respect it as an object of treaty obligation that renders the use of force against self-determination movements inadmissible. Indeed, the Charter of the United Nations is an international treaty and the use of force to suppress a struggle for self-determination would violate one of the purposes of the said instrument, namely, the respect of self-determination of peoples as the basis of friendly relations among nations63

http://etheses.nottingham.ac.uk/1188/1/315675.pdf

Then do show when the Palestinians have had their right to free determination violated, but bear in mind they have elected an interim government and allowed it to become a dictatorship with no help from anyone else.

 

[montelatici]

1. Christians, as the wealthiest of the Palestinians, had influence far beyond their numbers, as is the case in almost every society.

2. Christians not only fought against the Europeans along with Muslim Palestinians, they formed an important part of the Syrian Army's officer corps.

"Syrian Christians are also officers in the armed forces of Syria. They have preferred to mix in with Muslims rather than form all-Christian units and brigades, and fought alongside their Muslim compatriots against Israeli forces in the various Arab-Israeli conflicts of the 20th century."

Christianity in Syria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Phoenall]

Yes, let's shed some light.

What is your point?? How is this related to what Rocco posted??

In reality, it is submitted, it is the combination of the right of self-determination and the duty of the administering Power to respect it as an object of treaty obligation that renders the use of force against self-determination movements inadmissible. Indeed, the Charter of the United Nations is an international treaty and the use of force to suppress a struggle for self-determination would violate one of the purposes of the said instrument, namely, the respect of self-determination of peoples as the basis of friendly relations among nations63

http://etheses.nottingham.ac.uk/1188/1/315675.pdf

One day you will produce a link that is applicable to the subject matter, and not a thesis from a doctor of Psychology that does not deal with the situation in Palestine. In fact the treaties mentioned in the thesis have all been superseded and are no longer valid.

Nice try wont fly

 

[Phoenall]

Yes, let's shed some light.

Sounds like the Muslims-Arab Palestinians should have said 'yes' to the UN Partition Plan of 1947

It's over.

Why should the Palestinians, especially the Christians who stood to lose the most having the most homes in Jewish areas, have agreed to give up their homes and lands to a bunch of European settlers?

Because that is what they agreed to do when the mandate was formed and out into place.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Because the United Nations proposal had the backing of the so-called international community and international law and would have given both sides a piece of land to call their own without shedding one drop of blood?

One need look no further than their present miserable, self-inflicted condition, to discern the 'wisdom' of having made the 'other' choice.

They can thank the shade of the former Grand Mufti and his fascist followers for that one.

What does the Grand Mufti have to do with the plight of Palestinian Christians? Being the wealthiest of the Palestinians, they lost the most.

Palestinian Muslims made the decisions that impacted their Christian neighbors, including the decision to fight rather than accept a United Nations -sponsored partition.


Yeah. It IS easy to say that. Under the circumstances.

Given that they had no State of their own, that the Jews had purchased enough tracts of land to cobble-together a State of their own, and that the United Nations gave them an easy and sensible way out, which they failed to take, on the advice of their pan-Arab -focused Muslim-Arab neighbor-states.

"...Maybe the native americans should have just gone willingly into reservations without all the fighting against the Europeans that were taking their land, but do you fault them for resisting?..."

They chose Conflict rather than Peace, when the United Nations offered them a better way.

They now live with the consequences of that choice.

While they foolishly keep swinging long after the bell has sounded.

Comes a time to admit to one's self that the bell has rung.

"...Why do you fault the Christians and Muslims for resisting European occupation?"

First, a little perspective... Palestinian Christians only represented 10% of the so-called indigenous population prior to 1948, and today they only represent about 7-8% of it.

Second... I was not aware that Palestinian Christians had a sufficiently large and influential vote in Palestinian politics in order to drive the so-called 'resistance' process.

Third... I was not aware that Palestinian Christians had (a) mustered combat formations to fight against the Israelis or (b) were fighting in Palestinian-Muslim formations under Muslim command.

Isn't that the logical inference one would make, in order to discern whether Palestinian-Christians are substantively complicit in the so-called 'resistance'?

Ya learn something new every day.

Palestinians Christians always held extraordinary influence in economics, culture, and politics in Palestine.

 

[Kondor3]

Why should the Palestinians, especially the Christians who stood to lose the most having the most homes in Jewish areas, have agreed to give up their homes and lands to a bunch of European settlers?

Because the United Nations proposal had the backing of the so-called international community and international law and would have given both sides a piece of land to call their own without shedding one drop of blood?

One need look no further than their present miserable, self-inflicted condition, to discern the 'wisdom' of having made the 'other' choice.

They can thank the shade of the former Grand Mufti and his fascist followers for that one.

Yeah but that stupid plan flopped and didn't happen.

Only because the Muslim-Arab Palestinians rejected it.

The wiser, more savvy Jews accepted it.

We can see the relative merits of their choices, even today, by even the most cursory examination of the circumstances in which they find themselves.

Which brings to mind the question:

Which was the more 'stupid' (to use your term)... the Partition Plan, or the side which rejected it?

 

[montelatici]

Sounds like the Muslims-Arab Palestinians should have said 'yes' to the UN Partition Plan of 1947

It's over.

Why should the Palestinians, especially the Christians who stood to lose the most having the most homes in Jewish areas, have agreed to give up their homes and lands to a bunch of European settlers?

Because that is what they agreed to do when the mandate was formed and out into place.

The Palestinians did not agree to give up their homes and lands. The UN decided to give the land to European settlers without considering the rights of the indigenous people. Indigenous people anywhere would resist.

 

[Phoenall]

Why should the Palestinians, especially the Christians who stood to lose the most having the most homes in Jewish areas, have agreed to give up their homes and lands to a bunch of European settlers?

Because the United Nations proposal had the backing of the so-called international community and international law and would have given both sides a piece of land to call their own without shedding one drop of blood?

One need look no further than their present miserable, self-inflicted condition, to discern the 'wisdom' of having made the 'other' choice.

They can thank the shade of the former Grand Mufti and his fascist followers for that one.

What does the Grand Mufti have to do with the plight of Palestinian Christians? Being the wealthiest of the Palestinians, they lost the most.

It's easy to say that "they should have" done this or done that, but in reality what people just lie down and allow others to take their land and homes away from them? Maybe the native americans should have just gone willingly into reservations without all the fighting against the Europeans that were taking their land, but do you fault them for resisting? Why do you fault the Christians and Muslims for resisting European occupation?

Everything when it was him that started the ball rolling with BLOOD LIBELS against the Jews and declaring that they would be wiped out. Why do you lump the Christians in with the Jews when the Christians suffered just as much as the Jews did at muslim hands. You have been given innumerable links that show the muslims are ethnically cleansing all non muslims from the M.E and are in the process of mass genocide of the religious groups they don't want. The Europeans can all trace their ancestry back to one of the 12 tribes of Israel through their DNA, the Palestinians are no better than mongrel dogs and cant trace their ancestry on the land any further than 3 generations. The majority are late arrivals looking for work.

 

[Kondor3]

What does the Grand Mufti have to do with the plight of Palestinian Christians? Being the wealthiest of the Palestinians, they lost the most.

Palestinian Muslims made the decisions that impacted their Christian neighbors, including the decision to fight rather than accept a United Nations -sponsored partition.


Yeah. It IS easy to say that. Under the circumstances.

Given that they had no State of their own, that the Jews had purchased enough tracts of land to cobble-together a State of their own, and that the United Nations gave them an easy and sensible way out, which they failed to take, on the advice of their pan-Arab -focused Muslim-Arab neighbor-states.


They chose Conflict rather than Peace, when the United Nations offered them a better way.

They now live with the consequences of that choice.

While they foolishly keep swinging long after the bell has sounded.

Comes a time to admit to one's self that the bell has rung.

"...Why do you fault the Christians and Muslims for resisting European occupation?"

First, a little perspective... Palestinian Christians only represented 10% of the so-called indigenous population prior to 1948, and today they only represent about 7-8% of it.

Second... I was not aware that Palestinian Christians had a sufficiently large and influential vote in Palestinian politics in order to drive the so-called 'resistance' process.

Third... I was not aware that Palestinian Christians had (a) mustered combat formations to fight against the Israelis or (b) were fighting in Palestinian-Muslim formations under Muslim command.

Isn't that the logical inference one would make, in order to discern whether Palestinian-Christians are substantively complicit in the so-called 'resistance'?

Ya learn something new every day.

Palestinians Christians always held extraordinary influence in economics, culture, and politics in Palestine.

Are you trying to imply that Palestinian Christians had a substantive role in deciding to engage in armed struggle, or that Palestinian Christians have a substantive role in armed combat in that theatre of operations?

 

[Phoenall]

Why should the Palestinians, especially the Christians who stood to lose the most having the most homes in Jewish areas, have agreed to give up their homes and lands to a bunch of European settlers?

Because the United Nations proposal had the backing of the so-called international community and international law and would have given both sides a piece of land to call their own without shedding one drop of blood?

One need look no further than their present miserable, self-inflicted condition, to discern the 'wisdom' of having made the 'other' choice.

They can thank the shade of the former Grand Mufti and his fascist followers for that one.

Yeah but that stupid plan flopped and didn't happen.

Only in your fantasy world, in reality the UN took the Palestinians refused as an example of their free determination and granted the Jews their nation. Now you cant pick and choose which UN resolution to agree with, you either accept them all or none at all.

 

[toastman]

Yes, let's shed some light.

What is your point?? How is this related to what Rocco posted??

In reality, it is submitted, it is the combination of the right of self-determination and the duty of the administering Power to respect it as an object of treaty obligation that renders the use of force against self-determination movements inadmissible. Indeed, the Charter of the United Nations is an international treaty and the use of force to suppress a struggle for self-determination would violate one of the purposes of the said instrument, namely, the respect of self-determination of peoples as the basis of friendly relations among nations63

http://etheses.nottingham.ac.uk/1188/1/315675.pdf

You keep bringing up similar points but you never in your own words say what your point is.. Why are you bringing it up??

 

[P F Tinmore]

Palestinian Muslims made the decisions that impacted their Christian neighbors, including the decision to fight rather than accept a United Nations -sponsored partition.


Yeah. It IS easy to say that. Under the circumstances.

Given that they had no State of their own, that the Jews had purchased enough tracts of land to cobble-together a State of their own, and that the United Nations gave them an easy and sensible way out, which they failed to take, on the advice of their pan-Arab -focused Muslim-Arab neighbor-states.


They chose Conflict rather than Peace, when the United Nations offered them a better way.

They now live with the consequences of that choice.

While they foolishly keep swinging long after the bell has sounded.

Comes a time to admit to one's self that the bell has rung.


First, a little perspective... Palestinian Christians only represented 10% of the so-called indigenous population prior to 1948, and today they only represent about 7-8% of it.

Second... I was not aware that Palestinian Christians had a sufficiently large and influential vote in Palestinian politics in order to drive the so-called 'resistance' process.

Third... I was not aware that Palestinian Christians had (a) mustered combat formations to fight against the Israelis or (b) were fighting in Palestinian-Muslim formations under Muslim command.

Isn't that the logical inference one would make, in order to discern whether Palestinian-Christians are substantively complicit in the so-called 'resistance'?

Ya learn something new every day.

Palestinians Christians always held extraordinary influence in economics, culture, and politics in Palestine.

Are you trying to imply that Palestinian Christians had a substantive role in deciding to engage in armed struggle, or that Palestinian Christians have a substantive role in armed combat in that theatre of operations?

No.

Palestinian Christians are the staunchest supporters of Palestine.

 

[Sally]

Why should the Palestinians, especially the Christians who stood to lose the most having the most homes in Jewish areas, have agreed to give up their homes and lands to a bunch of European settlers?

Because that is what they agreed to do when the mandate was formed and out into place.

The Palestinians did not agree to give up their homes and lands. The UN decided to give the land to European settlers without considering the rights of the indigenous people. Indigenous people anywhere would resist.

Are we back to "indigenous" people again. Isn't it strange then that the British officials in the area reported that the Arabs were arriving in hordes from their poor surrounding countries when the Jews had jobs for them, much as we see other people leaving their poor countries today to better their lives. When early travelers to the Holy Land passed through, they mainly saw a few Bedouin, and not all these "indigenous" Arabs that some posters want us to think there were. I wouldn't even call my ancestors indigenous to the U.S. since they were born in Europe and no doubt came to this country for better opportunities. Where are your ancestors indigenous to,montelati, and why do you think they left the country of their origin?

 

[Kondor3]

Because the United Nations proposal had the backing of the so-called international community and international law and would have given both sides a piece of land to call their own without shedding one drop of blood?

One need look no further than their present miserable, self-inflicted condition, to discern the 'wisdom' of having made the 'other' choice.

They can thank the shade of the former Grand Mufti and his fascist followers for that one.

What does the Grand Mufti have to do with the plight of Palestinian Christians? Being the wealthiest of the Palestinians, they lost the most.

It's easy to say that "they should have" done this or done that, but in reality what people just lie down and allow others to take their land and homes away from them? Maybe the native americans should have just gone willingly into reservations without all the fighting against the Europeans that were taking their land, but do you fault them for resisting? Why do you fault the Christians and Muslims for resisting European occupation?

Everything when it was him that started the ball rolling with BLOOD LIBELS against the Jews and declaring that they would be wiped out. Why do you lump the Christians in with the Jews when the Christians suffered just as much as the Jews did at muslim hands. You have been given innumerable links that show the muslims are ethnically cleansing all non muslims from the M.E and are in the process of mass genocide of the religious groups they don't want. The Europeans can all trace their ancestry back to one of the 12 tribes of Israel through their DNA, the Palestinians are no better than mongrel dogs and cant trace their ancestry on the land any further than 3 generations. The majority are late arrivals looking for work.

Playing-up the Palestinian-Christian irritation with (and even passive resistance against, in some cases) Israel is the latest shell-game trick of Muslim-Arab-Palestinian propagandists and their sympathizers and 'useful idiots'.

Or, more accurately, a resurrection of a previously-failed approach, now that some years have passed since their last attempt, and in the hopes that nobody will remember how it fell on its face last time, when Arafat tried (and failed) to play that card.

These shills pretend a solidarity of purpose and methods between Palestinian Christians and Muslims which doesn't exist, in hopes of drawing-in support and sympathy from impressionable and naive Westerners - there's one born every minute, I guess.

But it's a glaringly-obvious and amateurish thing to do - painfully and humorously transparent - and really isn't going to get them anywhere.

Still... it's entertaining... dinner AND a show !

 

[Sally]

What does the Grand Mufti have to do with the plight of Palestinian Christians? Being the wealthiest of the Palestinians, they lost the most.

It's easy to say that "they should have" done this or done that, but in reality what people just lie down and allow others to take their land and homes away from them? Maybe the native americans should have just gone willingly into reservations without all the fighting against the Europeans that were taking their land, but do you fault them for resisting? Why do you fault the Christians and Muslims for resisting European occupation?

Everything when it was him that started the ball rolling with BLOOD LIBELS against the Jews and declaring that they would be wiped out. Why do you lump the Christians in with the Jews when the Christians suffered just as much as the Jews did at muslim hands. You have been given innumerable links that show the muslims are ethnically cleansing all non muslims from the M.E and are in the process of mass genocide of the religious groups they don't want. The Europeans can all trace their ancestry back to one of the 12 tribes of Israel through their DNA, the Palestinians are no better than mongrel dogs and cant trace their ancestry on the land any further than 3 generations. The majority are late arrivals looking for work.

Playing-up the Palestinian-Christian irritation with (and even passive resistance against, in some cases) Israel is the latest shell-game trick of Muslim-Arab-Palestinian propagandists and their sympathizers and 'useful idiots'.

Or, more accurately, a resurrection of a previously-failed approach, now that some years have passed since their last attempt, and in the hopes that nobody will remember how it fell on its face last time, when Arafat tried (and failed) to play that card.

They pretend a solidarity of purpose and methods which doesn't exist, in hopes of drawing-in Western support - there's one born every minute, I guess.

But it's a glaringly-obvious and amateurish thing to do - painfully and humorously transparent - and isn't really going to get them anywhere.

So true......

The Disquieting Treatment of Christians by the Palestinians

The Disquieting Treatment of Christians by the Palestinians