I will not Bow!

[montelatici]

Educate yourself. I am not here to start doing that. If you are on a forum and make outrageous claims then you need to back those claims up.

What are these "outrageous" claims? I am just repeating what Desmond Tutu, Jimmy Carter and even many fair minded Jews admit:

"Apartheid on Steroids

As a Jew who has been an ardent supporter of Israel since its independence, it pains me to record what I saw on a recent trip to the West Bank. But if the occupation continues as such, Israel’s legitimacy and future are at stake......"

Apartheid on Steroids | The Nation

PA, and the UN, are responsible for the health, education, water and development of jobs. Since Oslo, it is not in the hands of Israel. Where Israel has build and developed industry, they have hired palestinians at Israeli wages. Israel provides jobs in the construction industry as well. Israelis doing more and paying more for palestinians to have jobs than the PA is.
Palestinians do not want to live in the settlements with jews, even if they could afford to do so. They want to make the PA totally jew free, despite the fact that jews lived there before the partition, and war. Jews were forced out by the Jordanians.

It must be heavenly for the Palestinians.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Jews were trying to make peace and encouraged the palestinians to stay and work with them since '47. Every war and ceasefire was hoped that their would be a mutual peace agreement.
In south africa they were both citizens of the same state. Palestinian don't want to be part of Israel or allow jews to be part of a palestine.
Israel is not keeping the refugees in the camps, their fellow arabs are so the UN will pay for their needs.

Really. It does not seem to jive with reality. It seems it is part of the conditioning Americans receive. This is closer to the truth as to what the motives of the Jews were:

" "It must be clear that there is no room in the country for both people (...) the only solution is a Land of Israel, at least a western Land of Israel without Arabs. There is no room here for compromise. (...) There is no way but to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries(...) Not one village must be left, not one (bedouin) tribe."

Seven years later, Weitz found himself in a position to put this radical programme into effect. Already, in January 1948, he was orchestrating the expulsion of Palestinians from various parts of the country. In April he proposed - and obtained - the creation of "a body which would direct the Yishuv’s war with the aim of evicting as many Arabs as possible". This body was unofficial at first, but was formalised at the end of August 1948 into the "Transfer Committee" which supervised the destruction of abandoned Arab villages and/or their repopulation with recent Jewish immigrants, in order to make any return of the refugees impossible. Its role was extended, in July, to take in the creation of Jewish settlements in the border areas."

You can read more about and educate yourself.

The expulsion of the Palestinians re-examined - Le Monde diplomatique - English edition

There are versions of what happened and then there are other versions about what happened. Who to believe, oh who to believe? Meanwhile, perhaps you can tell us wny these "Palestinians" were not clamoring for their own state when the Egyptians and Jordanians were ruling them. I wonder since montelatici states " It seems it is part of the conditioning Americans receive," could she be posting from some Middle East country or is her heart back in one of them, such as Iran?

They were, it is just that it is not mentioned in Israel's propaganda sites.

 

[montelatici]

Meanwhile, perhaps you can tell us wny these "Palestinians" were not clamoring for their own state when the Egyptians and Jordanians were ruling them.

Palestinians have been asking for independence since Ottoman times and wanted independence under Egyptian and Jordanian rule. You have been reading too much Israeli propaganda.

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

First, I did not say anything about "you" - one way or the other. From one RVN vet to another - glad you made it home!

montelatici, et al,

LDM (Le Monde Diplomatique) is an "alternative view" out of Paris; or as some one is quite well known would say:

“Unique, invaluable, reliable, the English edition is wonderful news for those who hope to understand the world or change it for the better”

You can read more about and educate yourself.

The expulsion of the Palestinians re-examined - Le Monde diplomatique - English edition

(COMMENT)

If you like controversial views, this is a very good resource. I read it (the English Version). But I can only take one article at a time before I'm frustrated at they assumption of their views. Whether it educates you or indoctrinates you is dependent on how susceptible you are to anti-American perspectives. Currently, they are tearing into the Obama Administration (not that they don't deserve some criticism). But they offer little in the way of solutions or approaches other than to, as it applies here, surrender to Hostile Palestinian demands; totally and unconditionally.

However, I will say again, if you are looking for alternative view, LMD is an excellent resource; just not my cup of tea. I'm more the Kentucky Straight Bourbon man myself; known to have frequented Hayarkon Street bars in my younger days.

Most Respectfully,
R

They are not views, they are facts. They include documents that reveal what the motives were and what the Jews plans for the non-Jews were prior to the declaration of the Israeli state. This is not Fox News, it is Le Monde, one of the world's must serious news organizations, considered the most even-handed politically in the world.

(OBSERVATION)

"We offer a clear, considered view of the conflicting interests and complexities of a modern global world."

"We specialise in authoritative journalism whether it’s a view on Obama’s policy statements or on the unfolding dramas in Iran, Palestine or Pakistan."

“LMD provides a cool, reasoned, different view of the world’s most pressing issues”

SOURCE: About LMD

I recommend that you don't quibble over words of assign any media as a "factual source." They are all F-6 Sources.

There is nothing anti-American (or anti-Israeli) about it. It is just a presentation of facts that have been discovered through research within previously inaccessible archives. And look buddy, I spent a tour as an O-2 in Vietnam with the 196th Light Infantry, there is nothing anti-American about me. I was also with Army Corps of Engineers in Jeddah for 2 years, that's where I met many Palestinians who had been expelled from Palestine who because of their education and command of English worked for us in clerical positions. That's when my views became more neutral.

(COMMENT)

I don't believe that I made any comment as to your loyalty or political persuasion, one way or the other.

I've had close associations with Palestinians since 1978; in the capacity of legal travelers, DACs/LN Employees and NAF entities. So I'm not unfamiliar with the hard luck stories they tell. I've run across many career military and foreign service officers that have sympathies leaning in their direction. Opinions what they are, we are allowed to differ. You may have noticed that I make a distinction between Hostile Arab Palestinians and Arab Palestinians (non-Hostile). That is an acquired (experiential) taste. I don't consider anyone that supports the tenants of the HAMAS Covenant or the Palestinian National Charter as non-Hostile.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[montelatici]

montelatici, et al,

First, I did not say anything about "you" - one way or the other. From one RVN vet to another - glad you made it home!

montelatici, et al,

LDM (Le Monde Diplomatique) is an "alternative view" out of Paris; or as some one is quite well known would say:

​

(COMMENT)

If you like controversial views, this is a very good resource. I read it (the English Version). But I can only take one article at a time before I'm frustrated at they assumption of their views. Whether it educates you or indoctrinates you is dependent on how susceptible you are to anti-American perspectives. Currently, they are tearing into the Obama Administration (not that they don't deserve some criticism). But they offer little in the way of solutions or approaches other than to, as it applies here, surrender to Hostile Palestinian demands; totally and unconditionally.

However, I will say again, if you are looking for alternative view, LMD is an excellent resource; just not my cup of tea. I'm more the Kentucky Straight Bourbon man myself; known to have frequented Hayarkon Street bars in my younger days.

Most Respectfully,
R

They are not views, they are facts. They include documents that reveal what the motives were and what the Jews plans for the non-Jews were prior to the declaration of the Israeli state. This is not Fox News, it is Le Monde, one of the world's must serious news organizations, considered the most even-handed politically in the world.

(OBSERVATION)

"We offer a clear, considered view of the conflicting interests and complexities of a modern global world."

"We specialise in authoritative journalism whether it’s a view on Obama’s policy statements or on the unfolding dramas in Iran, Palestine or Pakistan."



SOURCE: About LMD

I recommend that you don't quibble over words of assign any media as a "factual source." They are all F-6 Sources.

There is nothing anti-American (or anti-Israeli) about it. It is just a presentation of facts that have been discovered through research within previously inaccessible archives. And look buddy, I spent a tour as an O-2 in Vietnam with the 196th Light Infantry, there is nothing anti-American about me. I was also with Army Corps of Engineers in Jeddah for 2 years, that's where I met many Palestinians who had been expelled from Palestine who because of their education and command of English worked for us in clerical positions. That's when my views became more neutral.

(COMMENT)

I don't believe that I made any comment as to your loyalty or political persuasion, one way or the other.

I've had close associations with Palestinians since 1978; in the capacity of legal travelers, DACs/LN Employees and NAF entities. So I'm not unfamiliar with the hard luck stories they tell. I've run across many career military and foreign service officers that have sympathies leaning in their direction. Opinions what they are, we are allowed to differ. You may have noticed that I make a distinction between Hostile Arab Palestinians and Arab Palestinians (non-Hostile). That is an acquired (experiential) taste. I don't consider anyone that supports the tenants of the HAMAS Covenant or the Palestinian National Charter as non-Hostile.

Most Respectfully,
R

I see, so in your opinion, unless the Christians and Muslims of Palestine do not agree to be ruled by Jews, they are hostile. I think you are kidding yourself. I suspect that you believe that the Jews had a right to expel the non-Jews they expelled and that the non-Jews should just accept their situation. Don't you realize how silly that is. The native Americans in South America are still attempting to regain their lands and status after over 500 years, and in some places like Bolivia, they have succeeded in gaining power. What makes you think that the Palestinians will just go away?

 

[aris2chat]

Meanwhile, perhaps you can tell us wny these "Palestinians" were not clamoring for their own state when the Egyptians and Jordanians were ruling them.

Palestinians have been asking for independence since Ottoman times and wanted independence under Egyptian and Jordanian rule. You have been reading too much Israeli propaganda.

They wanted to be part of a greater arab state. Most wanted a greater arab syrian state. Palestinians was not what they considered themselves.

 

[Kondor3]

What makes Israel supporters believe that the Palestinians will just go away?

1. the Palestinians have never been a polity nor 'people' - rather, a diverse collection of migrants and tribals

2. they have no sense of unity other than that conjured by Arafat, et al, within living memory

3. their own ethnic brethren and co-religionists nearby have all but abandoned them

4. they are their own worst enemy - fighting amongst themselves - Fatah vs. Hamas

5. they are outgunned and outclassed and outmaneuvered at every turn - out of their depth

6. their quickly-shrinking collection of land-parcels are insufficient and not contiguous nor sustainable

The Palestinians are under-performers and cannot be compared to actual Peoples elsewhere.

A century from now, their descendants will be scattered amongst the neighboring Arab states and thriving and both the name 'Palestinian' and its meaning will have drifted out of the collective consciousness except for the history books.

It's over.

 

[pbel]

montelatici, et al,

First, I did not say anything about "you" - one way or the other. From one RVN vet to another - glad you made it home!

They are not views, they are facts. They include documents that reveal what the motives were and what the Jews plans for the non-Jews were prior to the declaration of the Israeli state. This is not Fox News, it is Le Monde, one of the world's must serious news organizations, considered the most even-handed politically in the world.

(OBSERVATION)



I recommend that you don't quibble over words of assign any media as a "factual source." They are all F-6 Sources.

There is nothing anti-American (or anti-Israeli) about it. It is just a presentation of facts that have been discovered through research within previously inaccessible archives. And look buddy, I spent a tour as an O-2 in Vietnam with the 196th Light Infantry, there is nothing anti-American about me. I was also with Army Corps of Engineers in Jeddah for 2 years, that's where I met many Palestinians who had been expelled from Palestine who because of their education and command of English worked for us in clerical positions. That's when my views became more neutral.

(COMMENT)

I don't believe that I made any comment as to your loyalty or political persuasion, one way or the other.

I've had close associations with Palestinians since 1978; in the capacity of legal travelers, DACs/LN Employees and NAF entities. So I'm not unfamiliar with the hard luck stories they tell. I've run across many career military and foreign service officers that have sympathies leaning in their direction. Opinions what they are, we are allowed to differ. You may have noticed that I make a distinction between Hostile Arab Palestinians and Arab Palestinians (non-Hostile). That is an acquired (experiential) taste. I don't consider anyone that supports the tenants of the HAMAS Covenant or the Palestinian National Charter as non-Hostile.

Most Respectfully,
R

I see, so in your opinion, unless the Christians and Muslims of Palestine do not agree to be ruled by Jews, they are hostile. I think you are kidding yourself. I suspect that you believe that the Jews had a right to expel the non-Jews they expelled and that the non-Jews should just accept their situation. Don't you realize how silly that is. The native Americans in South America are still attempting to regain their lands and status after over 500 years, and in some places like Bolivia, they have succeeded in gaining power. What makes you think that the Palestinians will just go away?

I pretty much agree, the Palestinians and Arabs in ridding themselves of invaders for 1200 years or so in attrition war-fare...So far the Arabs have succeeded in outlasting the Crusaders, Turks, Brits, and this war too will last unless the Israelis agree to a mutually beneficial Economic based peace that might revitalize the region.

I believe its Israel's only hope for acceptance and survival

 

[montelatici]

I have always supported a secular state with equality for Jews, Christians and Muslims in Palestine. Unfortunately, the Jews want control of that state so it will never happen.

 

[Hossfly]

What makes Israel supporters believe that the Palestinians will just go away?

1. the Palestinians have never been a polity nor 'people' - rather, a diverse collection of migrants and tribals

2. they have no sense of unity other than that conjured by Arafat, et al, within living memory

3. their own ethnic brethren and co-religionists nearby have all but abandoned them

4. they are their own worst enemy - fighting amongst themselves - Fatah vs. Hamas

5. they are outgunned and outclassed and outmaneuvered at every turn - out of their depth

6. their quickly-shrinking collection of land-parcels are insufficient and not contiguous nor sustainable

The Palestinians are under-performers and cannot be compared to actual Peoples elsewhere.

A century from now, their descendants will be scattered amongst the neighboring Arab states and thriving and both the name 'Palestinian' and its meaning will have drifted out of the collective consciousness except for the history books.

It's over.

Yesterday afternoon I spent 3 hours with an Israeli from Jerusalem and the most striking remark he made was that "Palestinians are more hated by most other Arabs rather than non-Arabs".

 

[aris2chat]

I have always supported a secular state with equality for Jews, Christians and Muslims in Palestine. Unfortunately, the Jews want control of that state so it will never happen.

jews want to protect their religious rights and heritage. They want to have a state where they will no be perecuted.
Israeli christians and muslims have the same rights in Israel. Palestinians have right from the PA.

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

Let's shed a little light here.

I see, so in your opinion, unless the Christians and Muslims of Palestine do not agree to be ruled by Jews, they are hostile. I think you are kidding yourself.

(COMMENT)

I don't think I said that; or even implied that. I have often said that the Arab Palestinian has some legitimate grievances and claims. It is the means by which they attempt to settle those grievances and claims that I have taken issue.

This is the difference between peaceful means (example BDS) and hostile means (example terror tactics).

The Jihadist and Fedayeen are hostile, and anyone that supports, encourages or facilitates them is culpable and criminal.

No Palestinian has any special exemption to participate in an armed struggle against the State of Israel.

I suspect that you believe that the Jews had a right to expel the non-Jews they expelled and that the non-Jews should just accept their situation. Don't you realize how silly that is. The native Americans in South America are still attempting to regain their lands and status after over 500 years, and in some places like Bolivia, they have succeeded in gaining power. What makes you think that the Palestinians will just go away?

(COMMENT)

I don't like to make comparisons between cultures. In all of human history, you probably could not come up with a total of a 1000 years where the planet was at peace. It is a rarity to find a period of time absent conflict somewhere.

If I'm discussing Palestine (whatever that is defined to be), then I tend to stick to what is applicable to that conflict. I don't inject the cultural difficulties of a totally disconnected society.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[toastman]

montelatici, et al,

First, I did not say anything about "you" - one way or the other. From one RVN vet to another - glad you made it home!



(OBSERVATION)



I recommend that you don't quibble over words of assign any media as a "factual source." They are all F-6 Sources.


(COMMENT)

I don't believe that I made any comment as to your loyalty or political persuasion, one way or the other.

I've had close associations with Palestinians since 1978; in the capacity of legal travelers, DACs/LN Employees and NAF entities. So I'm not unfamiliar with the hard luck stories they tell. I've run across many career military and foreign service officers that have sympathies leaning in their direction. Opinions what they are, we are allowed to differ. You may have noticed that I make a distinction between Hostile Arab Palestinians and Arab Palestinians (non-Hostile). That is an acquired (experiential) taste. I don't consider anyone that supports the tenants of the HAMAS Covenant or the Palestinian National Charter as non-Hostile.

Most Respectfully,
R

I see, so in your opinion, unless the Christians and Muslims of Palestine do not agree to be ruled by Jews, they are hostile. I think you are kidding yourself. I suspect that you believe that the Jews had a right to expel the non-Jews they expelled and that the non-Jews should just accept their situation. Don't you realize how silly that is. The native Americans in South America are still attempting to regain their lands and status after over 500 years, and in some places like Bolivia, they have succeeded in gaining power. What makes you think that the Palestinians will just go away?

I pretty much agree, the Palestinians and Arabs in ridding themselves of invaders for 1200 years or so in attrition war-fare...So far the Arabs have succeeded in outlasting the Crusaders, Turks, Brits, and this war too will last unless the Israelis agree to a mutually beneficial Economic based peace that might revitalize the region.

I believe its Israel's only hope for acceptance and survival

Pbel, I'm very confused about your position.
You say that Israel needs to, among other things, allow right of return.
But on the other hand, you say that if Israel doesn't allow right of return among the other demands, then it will be destroyed because of how Arabs outnumber Jews.
But the thing is, allowing right of return will make Jews a majority in their own country, and will lead to demographic suicide. Right of return will make Arabs out umber Jews by quite a lot.... But INSIDE Israel..
Do you understand where I'm going with this??

 

[Billo_Really]

So were are the Palestinians being gassed to death in your video

You didn't see the video?

No you used he comparison of Hitlers gas chambers to Israeli crowd riot control using non lethal tear gas.

No I didn't. That's what you're trying to spin it into.

At least have the balls to take ownership over the things you say.

Personally never..........

Never what? Never make a lucid comment?

When you claim the Israelis are gassing Palestinians to death when they clearly are not then I pull you up short on it

Where did I make that claim? What post was it?

Did not see any bodies so either the Israelis were very poor shots, or the rounds were rubber bullets. Another method of riot control used by the worlds Police and Military.

It wasn't a riot, yet they opened fire anyway.

Would you expect the US military to allow you passage onto military property, or would you expect them to warn and then shoot non lethal weapons at you.

It wasn't military property, it was a public road. A road that happens to be in the West Bank, which the IDF has no legal reason to be there.

Proven claims

WTF are you talking about, dumbass?

Yep because it shows your agenda that you are not concerned about atrocities in other parts of the M.E because you cant racially abuse and demonise the Jews.

You're not concerned with the atrocities in that video,

Just your opinion which is as worthless as an ashtray on a motorbike.

 

[P F Tinmore]

montelatici, et al,

Let's shed a little light here.

I see, so in your opinion, unless the Christians and Muslims of Palestine do not agree to be ruled by Jews, they are hostile. I think you are kidding yourself.

(COMMENT)

I don't think I said that; or even implied that. I have often said that the Arab Palestinian has some legitimate grievances and claims. It is the means by which they attempt to settle those grievances and claims that I have taken issue.

This is the difference between peaceful means (example BDS) and hostile means (example terror tactics).

The Jihadist and Fedayeen are hostile, and anyone that supports, encourages or facilitates them is culpable and criminal.

No Palestinian has any special exemption to participate in an armed struggle against the State of Israel.

I suspect that you believe that the Jews had a right to expel the non-Jews they expelled and that the non-Jews should just accept their situation. Don't you realize how silly that is. The native Americans in South America are still attempting to regain their lands and status after over 500 years, and in some places like Bolivia, they have succeeded in gaining power. What makes you think that the Palestinians will just go away?

(COMMENT)

I don't like to make comparisons between cultures. In all of human history, you probably could not come up with a total of a 1000 years where the planet was at peace. It is a rarity to find a period of time absent conflict somewhere.

If I'm discussing Palestine (whatever that is defined to be), then I tend to stick to what is applicable to that conflict. I don't inject the cultural difficulties of a totally disconnected society.

Most Respectfully,
R

Yes, let's shed some light.

1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.

2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.

5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.

6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

7. All States shall observe faithfully and strictly the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the present Declaration on the basis of equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of all States, and respect for the sovereign rights of all peoples and their territorial integrity.

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration

 

[Kondor3]

montelatici, et al,

Let's shed a little light here.

I see, so in your opinion, unless the Christians and Muslims of Palestine do not agree to be ruled by Jews, they are hostile. I think you are kidding yourself.

(COMMENT)

I don't think I said that; or even implied that. I have often said that the Arab Palestinian has some legitimate grievances and claims. It is the means by which they attempt to settle those grievances and claims that I have taken issue.

This is the difference between peaceful means (example BDS) and hostile means (example terror tactics).

The Jihadist and Fedayeen are hostile, and anyone that supports, encourages or facilitates them is culpable and criminal.

No Palestinian has any special exemption to participate in an armed struggle against the State of Israel.


(COMMENT)

I don't like to make comparisons between cultures. In all of human history, you probably could not come up with a total of a 1000 years where the planet was at peace. It is a rarity to find a period of time absent conflict somewhere.

If I'm discussing Palestine (whatever that is defined to be), then I tend to stick to what is applicable to that conflict. I don't inject the cultural difficulties of a totally disconnected society.

Most Respectfully,
R

Yes, let's shed some light.

1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.

2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.

5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.

6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

7. All States shall observe faithfully and strictly the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the present Declaration on the basis of equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of all States, and respect for the sovereign rights of all peoples and their territorial integrity.

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration

Sounds like the Muslims-Arab Palestinians should have said 'yes' to the UN Partition Plan of 1947 and set up their own State in peace alongside that of Israel, back in 1948, never mind losing the various wars they provoked or started.

You just can't keep making piss-poor decisions like that, decade after decade, and expect to sustain your case, 66 years later.

Dumbasses... welcome to your consequences.

It's over.

 

[Kondor3]

What makes Israel supporters believe that the Palestinians will just go away?

1. the Palestinians have never been a polity nor 'people' - rather, a diverse collection of migrants and tribals

2. they have no sense of unity other than that conjured by Arafat, et al, within living memory

3. their own ethnic brethren and co-religionists nearby have all but abandoned them

4. they are their own worst enemy - fighting amongst themselves - Fatah vs. Hamas

5. they are outgunned and outclassed and outmaneuvered at every turn - out of their depth

6. their quickly-shrinking collection of land-parcels are insufficient and not contiguous nor sustainable

The Palestinians are under-performers and cannot be compared to actual Peoples elsewhere.

A century from now, their descendants will be scattered amongst the neighboring Arab states and thriving and both the name 'Palestinian' and its meaning will have drifted out of the collective consciousness except for the history books.

It's over.

Yesterday afternoon I spent 3 hours with an Israeli from Jerusalem and the most striking remark he made was that "Palestinians are more hated by most other Arabs rather than non-Arabs".

Not surprising.

These losers have been causing grief amongst their brother Muslims for decades.

The ones living closer-by have poured blood and treasure into the contest on their behalf on multimple occasions, and appear to have reached a state of Donor Exhaustion.

To the point where even the Egyptians and Jordanians are collaborating with Israel, to wall-off and isolate the mad-dog Palestinians, to prevent the spread of their particular strain of political rabies pestilence.

You know you're 'screwed' when your own co-religionists finally throw-up their hands and collaborate with former common enemies in order to blockade you.

Thus has the collective stupidity, intransigence and cowardice of the so-called Palestinian Cause brought them to their present sorry and hopeless state of affairs.

It's over.

 

[pbel]

I see, so in your opinion, unless the Christians and Muslims of Palestine do not agree to be ruled by Jews, they are hostile. I think you are kidding yourself. I suspect that you believe that the Jews had a right to expel the non-Jews they expelled and that the non-Jews should just accept their situation. Don't you realize how silly that is. The native Americans in South America are still attempting to regain their lands and status after over 500 years, and in some places like Bolivia, they have succeeded in gaining power. What makes you think that the Palestinians will just go away?

I pretty much agree, the Palestinians and Arabs in ridding themselves of invaders for 1200 years or so in attrition war-fare...So far the Arabs have succeeded in outlasting the Crusaders, Turks, Brits, and this war too will last unless the Israelis agree to a mutually beneficial Economic based peace that might revitalize the region.

I believe its Israel's only hope for acceptance and survival

Pbel, I'm very confused about your position.
You say that Israel needs to, among other things, allow right of return.
But on the other hand, you say that if Israel doesn't allow right of return among the other demands, then it will be destroyed because of how Arabs outnumber Jews.
But the thing is, allowing right of return will make Jews a majority in their own country, and will lead to demographic suicide. Right of return will make Arabs out umber Jews by quite a lot.... But INSIDE Israel..
Do you understand where I'm going with this??

I have never supported a right of return en mass...I understand that position, however monetary compensation for both Arab and Jew who were affected by these expulsions in this tragic war.

 

[toastman]

montelatici, et al,

Let's shed a little light here.

I see, so in your opinion, unless the Christians and Muslims of Palestine do not agree to be ruled by Jews, they are hostile. I think you are kidding yourself.

(COMMENT)

I don't think I said that; or even implied that. I have often said that the Arab Palestinian has some legitimate grievances and claims. It is the means by which they attempt to settle those grievances and claims that I have taken issue.

This is the difference between peaceful means (example BDS) and hostile means (example terror tactics).

The Jihadist and Fedayeen are hostile, and anyone that supports, encourages or facilitates them is culpable and criminal.

No Palestinian has any special exemption to participate in an armed struggle against the State of Israel.


(COMMENT)

I don't like to make comparisons between cultures. In all of human history, you probably could not come up with a total of a 1000 years where the planet was at peace. It is a rarity to find a period of time absent conflict somewhere.

If I'm discussing Palestine (whatever that is defined to be), then I tend to stick to what is applicable to that conflict. I don't inject the cultural difficulties of a totally disconnected society.

Most Respectfully,
R

Yes, let's shed some light.

1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.

2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.

5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.

6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

7. All States shall observe faithfully and strictly the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the present Declaration on the basis of equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of all States, and respect for the sovereign rights of all peoples and their territorial integrity.

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration

What is your point?? How is this related to what Rocco posted??

 

[P F Tinmore]

montelatici, et al,

Let's shed a little light here.


(COMMENT)

I don't think I said that; or even implied that. I have often said that the Arab Palestinian has some legitimate grievances and claims. It is the means by which they attempt to settle those grievances and claims that I have taken issue.

This is the difference between peaceful means (example BDS) and hostile means (example terror tactics).

The Jihadist and Fedayeen are hostile, and anyone that supports, encourages or facilitates them is culpable and criminal.

No Palestinian has any special exemption to participate in an armed struggle against the State of Israel.


(COMMENT)

I don't like to make comparisons between cultures. In all of human history, you probably could not come up with a total of a 1000 years where the planet was at peace. It is a rarity to find a period of time absent conflict somewhere.

If I'm discussing Palestine (whatever that is defined to be), then I tend to stick to what is applicable to that conflict. I don't inject the cultural difficulties of a totally disconnected society.

Most Respectfully,
R

Yes, let's shed some light.

1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.

2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.

5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.

6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

7. All States shall observe faithfully and strictly the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the present Declaration on the basis of equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of all States, and respect for the sovereign rights of all peoples and their territorial integrity.

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration

What is your point?? How is this related to what Rocco posted??

In reality, it is submitted, it is the combination of the right of self-determination and the duty of the administering Power to respect it as an object of treaty obligation that renders the use of force against self-determination movements inadmissible. Indeed, the Charter of the United Nations is an international treaty and the use of force to suppress a struggle for self-determination would violate one of the purposes of the said instrument, namely, the respect of self-determination of peoples as the basis of friendly relations among nations63

http://etheses.nottingham.ac.uk/1188/1/315675.pdf