CDZ I want to present this in this forum hopefully to get some real dialogue

[sparky]

Yes, I believe it's being exploited for policies.

Dibs by next year the very same folks who claim 'it ain't no thing' today, are all b*tching how multiple gub'mit agencies are crawling up their a**

~S~

 

[whutTHEYsay]

Really, then you've a lot to 'splain Mr Fool

But then so many of us are fat/happy with Gub'Mit intervention, oversight, enforcement, regulation , legislation and investigation(s) trashing our quaint constitution it makes me want to puke

I have explained to you one example of your irrational fear based ignorance involving the TSA upgrades that followed the terrorist attacks in 2001.

You don’t dispute my explanation.

Whatever Gub'Mit intervention, oversight, enforcement, regulation , legislation and investigation(s) out there that are bugging you mean nothing to this discussion.

Keep it amongst your fellow alternative reality.

Much of your public health comments are quite sensible and aligned with reality - but when you start seeing those black helicopters landing on your front lawn you lose me.

 

[sparky]

You don’t dispute my explanation.

Yeah, in fact i do

You want to paint me some sort of tin hat conspiracist for insisting government control can lead to more and more government control

My shot back to you is this country's historic response

That stands

You fold

not sorry

~S~

 

[whutTHEYsay]

No it is not

Why not? Explain how a terrorist attack has something in common with a pandemic.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

You don’t dispute my explanation.

Yeah, in fact i do

You want to paint me some sort of tin hat conspiracist for insisting government control can lead to more and more government control

My shot back to you is this country's historic response

That stands

You fold

not sorry

~S~

 

[whutTHEYsay]

mental mush Trumps nothing.

 

[Winco]

Both of these shitheads were part of an administration that increased poverty, decreased family income, really ran up debt, increased taxes, let millions of illegals flood in, weaken the military, had dismal economic growth and sat on their asses doing nothing while thousands of Americans died from H1N1.

Thank god that Trump came in and fixed Obama's disastrous economy and we went into this with a booming economy. Thank god that Trump didn't listen to the stupid Democrats and not take decisive action against China like they said was racist. Thank god Trump is President who can get us back on track after the Pandemic passes.

Idiot, Obama acted in 11 days. You continue to use this lie. Are you lying to piss people off, or do you truly not know the Facts?

 

[EvMetro]

'm using that article as an example because I use the term intellectual honesty a lot- Rush, is a great example as well as our own beloved, I'm sure, PoliticalChic- I've said for years Rush is very intelligent, but he is hyper-partisan.

Are you saying Rush Limbaugh is an intellectually honest partisan?

He is truly partisan but there is nothing about his theatrics and message to his dittoheads that can be described as intellectually honest.

i did have a chance to listen to Limbaugh today and I can sense that TrumpO has backed Mr Limbaugh into a corner.

TRumpO has recently converted to science from his partisan malarky that this novel virus is no worse than the seasonal flu and is being used to incite panic just to bring his presidency down.

TrumpO has newly built an entirely contradictory political survival narrative with his claim that he himself has shut down the US economy because the science tells him that it will save 2 million Anericans lives that otherwise would be lost if he did nothing.

TrumpO has dumped el Rushbo and left him for dead.

The Limbaugh theory you posted appears to be a flimsy attempt to bring himself and the dittoheads into aligning them up to the new science Trump who now believes this COVID-19 epidemic is very deadly. You know, what the left and Investor class knew from the very start.

So if any of you are converting to science here is a good place to start:

This post was laced with partisan subjective hatred for Trump, so it doesn't fit in a thread about intellectual honesty.

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear Gdjjr 1. It goes both ways. There are as many infections and deaths earlier on, before detection and testing was announced, that could easily be covid related but never counted, as there are deaths attributed to covid which may not be, such as heart failures which are triggered by covid but might have happened anyway. Because of nursing homes, there are more likely greater numbers of covid deaths than can be tested or counted. 2. That isnt the issue anyway. Hospitalization numbers exceeding medical staff, supplies and safety are the real issue, and sadly the number of patients dying mean those resources can be saved and used for patients taking 2-4 weeks of supervision in isolation to recover. So the REAL issue of focus isnt quibbling over death counts (where YES there are already some cases of hospitals counting deaths as covid to get federal funds per death) but monitoring and managing hospitalization response so recovery time is reduced and people can get back to work or get jobs supplying the medical demands at safe work sites.

I don't easily abide monologues-

I want to talk about intellectual honesty. I posted this in another thread

Rush Limbaugh Floats Theory That Coronavirus Deaths Are Being Inflated to Push an Agenda

Conservative talk-radio host and recent Presidential Medal of Freedom honoree Rush Limbaugh on Thursday floated the theory that deaths from coronavirus have been inflated so that governments could further “the policies they have put in place.”Citing the latest record-breaking unemployment claims...

www.yahoo.com

I'm using that article as an example because I use the term intellectual honesty a lot- Rush, is a great example as well as our own beloved, I'm sure, PoliticalChic- I've said for years Rush is very intelligent, but he is hyper-partisan. I've told our very own, beloved, I'm sure, PoliticalChic, the same thing- I give them their just due for their intelligence, (and I'll add now, their tenacity as there is a lot to be said for that trait) but I can't abide their hyper-partisan intellect. Both are intelligent enough to know better and the evidence is overwhelming that there is very little difference in the Party elite outside their rhetoric, which is used as a tool to keep citizens divided. Any half wit can see there is no difference. Hitting a brick wall at 100 or at 90 still is hitting a brick wall. The only (maybe) difference is the rate of descent to the same destination- and that rate of descent is accelerating almost daily.

In the article it says what it says- I'm not going to give away the punch line- you have to read it and make your own determination.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

16#290 reply to 16#288 reply to 01#19

This post was laced with partisan subjective hatred for Trump, so it doesn't fit in a thread about intellectual honesty.

No hatred. It is objective recognition that the man is corrupt immoral and Indecent.
It is the truest form of intellectual honesty which leads to total rejection of the cult like mind control he holds on about 33 percent of all voters which consists mostly of anti-intellectual, low educated voters with a good share of science rejecting white Christian evangelicals that do not think like normal human beings, Cases have been confirmed in a dozen countries, with at least five in the United States. There will likely be more”who rather prefer using faith for their decisions and who believe Trump was sent by god. And there are the a higher educated Republicans that loath the uneducated mob they must manipulate because they know they need them to hold on to political power.

I’m not educated beyond high school and I have done well in a well paid profession, but I believe education is something you can self teach all your life, but I respect those who are scientists and medically trained and who know what we are up against versus C19. Care to join the discussion or was your comment an attempt to ban intellectually honest people here from discussing things that put Trump’s chance for re-election into deeper and deeper jeopardy. Such as -30 GDP and unemployment higher than the last time before Obama, when a Republican occupied the White House. And of course The needless death of so many Americans who need not have died if Trump has chosen to listen to scientists a month or two earlier instead of holding political rallies where science was rejected as a hoax, bragging that he had it all under control leaving ‘no risk’ to Americans. Fifteen cases would be zero in a few days. The man said.

JOE knew this was coming why didn’t the Donald?

Diseases don't stop at borders or wallsJanuary 27 OpEd USA Today

FLASHBACK by Joe Biden: Trump is worst possible leader to deal with coronavirus outbreak

Donald Trump has blithely tweeted that 'it will all work out well.' Yet the steps he's taken as president have only weakened our capacity to respond.

www.usatoday.com

“The outbreak of a new coronavirus, which has already infected more than 2,700people and killed over 80 in China, will get worse before it gets better. Cases have been confirmed in a dozen countries, with at least five in the United States. There will likely be more”

Trump Pence might as well resign now. Let Nancy be President until Joe is inaugurated

On TV FEBRUARY 26 THE PRESIDENT: “Hopefully, we’re not going to have to spend so much because we really think we’ve done a great job in keeping it down to a minimum. And again, we’ve had tremendous success — tremendous success — beyond what people would have thought.”

USA TODAY OP/ED JOE BIDEN JANUARY 27 “Cases have been confirmed in a dozen countries, with at least five in the United States. There will likely be more”

in all intellectual honesty which of the two men was right?

 

[Correll]

14#270 reply to 14#267 re: when will Correll comprehend that it is bad.

When it is over and we have some time to not only crunch the numbers but to check the numbers and to compare them to the "control" nations that did not react strongly.

Following the outbreak of the C19 Pandemic in NYC was it appropriate for the mayor and Governor to request FEMA to provide forty makeshift morgues or should they have waited until you and your fellow liberty police get some free time, when it is overto crunch the numbers?

So, you seem confused about the difference between an administrator with real world duties and a voter who will judge the results.


No, the personal making the decision has to operate on the fly with limited data.


You do understand that I am not part of NYC government, right? And if I was, I would not tell you.

 

[Gdjjr]

There are as many infections and deaths earlier on, before detection and testing was announced, that could easily be covid related but never counted

Speculation- "official" anything, from media or gov't, known liars, is not to be trusted, under any circumstance.
Related- means something else had already weakened the immune system. Whether, gov't employees, including the pin heads in the media want to "officially" say it or not.
Coulda, woulda, shoulda changes the "official" thought? presented to speculation- not fact.
This thread, HAD you bothered to read, is about intellectual honesty. That DOES require staying on topic.
This thread is NOT about the flu- SMH

 

[EvMetro]

16#290 reply to 16#288 reply to 01#19

This post was laced with partisan subjective hatred for Trump, so it doesn't fit in a thread about intellectual honesty.

No hatred. It is objective recognition that the man is corrupt immoral and Indecent.
It is the truest form of intellectual honesty which leads to total rejection of the cult like mind control he holds on about 33 percent of all voters which consists mostly of anti-intellectual, low educated voters with a good share of science rejecting white Christian evangelicals that do not think like normal human beings, Cases have been confirmed in a dozen countries, with at least five in the United States. There will likely be more”who rather prefer using faith for their decisions and who believe Trump was sent by god. And there are the a higher educated Republicans that loath the uneducated mob they must manipulate because they know they need them to hold on to political power.

I’m not educated beyond high school and I have done well in a well paid profession, but I believe education is something you can self teach all your life, but I respect those who are scientists and medically trained and who know what we are up against versus C19. Care to join the discussion or was your comment an attempt to ban intellectually honest people here from discussing things that put Trump’s chance for re-election into deeper and deeper jeopardy. Such as -30 GDP and unemployment higher than the last time before Obama, when a Republican occupied the White House. And of course The needless death of so many Americans who need not have died if Trump has chosen to listen to scientists a month or two earlier instead of holding political rallies where science was rejected as a hoax, bragging that he had it all under control leaving ‘no risk’ to Americans. Fifteen cases would be zero in a few days. The man said.

JOE knew this was coming why didn’t the Donald?

Diseases don't stop at borders or wallsJanuary 27 OpEd USA Today

FLASHBACK by Joe Biden: Trump is worst possible leader to deal with coronavirus outbreak

Donald Trump has blithely tweeted that 'it will all work out well.' Yet the steps he's taken as president have only weakened our capacity to respond.

www.usatoday.com

“The outbreak of a new coronavirus, which has already infected more than 2,700people and killed over 80 in China, will get worse before it gets better. Cases have been confirmed in a dozen countries, with at least five in the United States. There will likely be more”

Trump Pence might as well resign now. Let Nancy be President until Joe is inaugurated

On TV FEBRUARY 26 THE PRESIDENT: “Hopefully, we’re not going to have to spend so much because we really think we’ve done a great job in keeping it down to a minimum. And again, we’ve had tremendous success — tremendous success — beyond what people would have thought.”

USA TODAY OP/ED JOE BIDEN JANUARY 27 “Cases have been confirmed in a dozen countries, with at least five in the United States. There will likely be more”

in all intellectual honesty which of the two men was right?

This is still extremely subjective. It sounds like you have the capacity to engage in objective conversation, but your post still reeks of partisan hatred for Trump. I'd be interested in seeing your objective message isolated from your subjective hatred of bad orange man. It sounds like you have enough of what it takes to step away from your ideology long enough to come up with something objective, something intellectually honest. Let's see it.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

14#293 reply to 14#

I'd be interested in seeing your objective message isolated from your subjective hatred of bad orange man.

First I need you to focus on the content of all my responses to this thread instead of your pathetic attempt at psychoanalysis of my legitimate opposition to a man who is horrible at being president without a crisis, but in a public health crisis of unprecedented magnitude his horribleness is exposed to all Americans emotionally and intellectually to see.

don’t need your diversions. If you can defend the man please do.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

14#295 reply to 14#291 reply to 14#270
re: when will Correll comprehend that it is bad.

So, you seem confused about the difference between an administrator with real world duties and a voter who will judge the results.

I’m not confused. Just curious as to why a voter who cannot comprehend that this pandemic is bad and deadlier than last year’s flu season until its over, runs his or her mouth saying crap like this:

01#23

. The temptation for libs in hospitals to count deaths as Convid-19, to undermine the President is real.

If it’s not “bad” it will not make one bit of difference what “cause of death” libs in hospitals report.

Trump was operating in the real world and he announced he had it under control.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

14#296 reply to 14#291 reply to 14#270 re: when will Correll comprehend that it is bad.

So, you seem confused about the difference between an administrator with real world duties and a voter who will judge the results.

No, the personal making the decision has to operate on the fly with limited data.

You do understand that I am not part of NYC government, right? And if I was, I would not tell you.

Not confused at all.

14#267” reply to 14#261

When it is over and we have some time to not only crunch the numbers but to check the numbers and to compare them to the "control" nations that did not react strongly.

When did you set up a control nation? Which one has a New New New York City that had not locked down?

There is no “control group“ and there cannot be to the US.

​

(in an experiment) The group of test subjects left untreated or unexposed to some procedure and then compared with treated subjects in order to validate the results of the test.​

English Wiktionary. Available under CC-BY-SA license.​

So why wait to crunch final numbers to understand the amount of death above normal C19 can and will certainly bring?

Are you social distancing or going about life as normal exactly as you did before? Do you hope to get infected so you can be one of the herd with natural immunity or one who ends up dead on a ventilator if there are any ehen your time comes,

There is no control group with similarity to the US. If you think Sweden is your control group perhaps you should consider it being a control group for locked down Denmark. Both similar in climate, ethnicity and religiosity,

You are already in trouble if you prefer herd immunity to lockdown and strict social distancing,

​

For weeks, the numbers of COVID-19 cases and fatalities were proportionally similar between Sweden and Denmark, but while the economic results of the strict isolation are being felt in Denmark, Sweden’s mortality rate has reached more than 88 dead per million, compared with around 47 dead per million in Denmark.​

​

As virus deaths rise, Sweden sticks to 'low-scale' lockdown

Sweden is pursuing relatively liberal policies to fight the coronavirus pandemic, even though there has been a sharp spike in deaths

www.google.com

NYC is more densely populated with a huge population of low income African Americans that have no ‘socialized’ medicine to get tree best of care under normal conditions and are more likely to die if infected.

But if you apply double the deaths per million from the Sweden and Denmark “controlled” experiment there would be around 10,000 more deaths in NYC than the 10,000 deaths reported to date.

Are you OK with 10,000 extra dead in NYC so you can maintain you freedom to a go to bar To spread the infection your third grader brought home from a grade school chick full of super spreaders.

Is saving 10,000 lives nothing to you?

EvMetro Same Question to you.

 

[EvMetro]

14#296 reply to 14#291 reply to 14#270 re: when will Correll comprehend that it is bad.

So, you seem confused about the difference between an administrator with real world duties and a voter who will judge the results.

No, the personal making the decision has to operate on the fly with limited data.

You do understand that I am not part of NYC government, right? And if I was, I would not tell you.

Not confused at all.

14#267” reply to 14#261

When it is over and we have some time to not only crunch the numbers but to check the numbers and to compare them to the "control" nations that did not react strongly.

When did you set up a control nation? Which one has a New New New York City that had not locked down?

There is no “control group“ and there cannot be to the US.

​

(in an experiment) The group of test subjects left untreated or unexposed to some procedure and then compared with treated subjects in order to validate the results of the test.​

English Wiktionary. Available under CC-BY-SA license.​

So why wait to crunch final numbers to understand the amount of death above normal C19 can and will certainly bring?

Are you social distancing or going about life as normal exactly as you did before? Do you hope to get infected so you can be one of the herd with natural immunity or one who ends up dead on a ventilator if there are any ehen your time comes,

There is no control group with similarity to the US. If you think Sweden is your control group perhaps you should consider it being a control group for locked down Denmark. Both similar in climate, ethnicity and religiosity,

You are already in trouble if you prefer herd immunity to lockdown and strict social distancing,

​

For weeks, the numbers of COVID-19 cases and fatalities were proportionally similar between Sweden and Denmark, but while the economic results of the strict isolation are being felt in Denmark, Sweden’s mortality rate has reached more than 88 dead per million, compared with around 47 dead per million in Denmark.​

​

As virus deaths rise, Sweden sticks to 'low-scale' lockdown

Sweden is pursuing relatively liberal policies to fight the coronavirus pandemic, even though there has been a sharp spike in deaths

www.google.com

NYC is more densely populated with a huge population of low income African Americans that have no ‘socialized’ medicine to get tree best of care under normal conditions and are more likely to die if infected.

But if you apply double the deaths per million from the Sweden and Denmark “controlled” experiment there would be around 10,000 more deaths in NYC than the 10,000 deaths reported to date.

Are you OK with 10,000 extra dead in NYC so you can maintain you freedom to a go to bar To spread the infection your third grader brought home from a grade school chick full of super spreaders.

Is saving 10,000 lives nothing to you?

EvMetro Same Question to you.

Seems like you put a lot of thought and time into this post, and it looks like you made an effort to be objective. I wish I had enough actual data and stats available to me so I could comment more on this, but there is just not enough available.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

Seems like you put a lot of thought and time into this post, and it looks like you made an effort to be objective. I wish I had enough actual data and stats available to me so I could comment more on this, but there is just not enough available.

I provided the main statistics from Finland and Sweden. Finland locked down early and Sweden has a very limited lock down.

Sweden has twice as many deaths per million as Finland so far. Sweden has not flattened the curve. Finland has flattened the curve and is seeing a reduction in new cases.

so when I ask “is saving 10,000 lives nothing to you?”

that really should not be a question that would take any time to answer.

 

[EvMetro]

Seems like you put a lot of thought and time into this post, and it looks like you made an effort to be objective. I wish I had enough actual data and stats available to me so I could comment more on this, but there is just not enough available.

I provided the main statistics from Finland and Sweden. Finland locked down early and Sweden has a very limited lock down.

Sweden has twice as many deaths per million as Finland so far. Sweden has not flattened the curve. Finland has flattened the curve and is seeing a reduction in new cases.

so when I ask “is saving 10,000 lives nothing to you?”

that really should not be a question that would take any time to answer.

I have yet to see any death counts that are trustworthy enough to use in any calculations. That data is not available.

It sounds like you want to frame me with a notion that 10000 lives do not matter to me unless I am board with your post. Lives matter to me.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

14#300 reply to 24#299

I have yet to see any death counts that are trustworthy enough to use in any calculations. That data is not available.

Did you at some point in recent months, take in enough worldwide pandemic news that caused you personally to avoid contact with strangers, with other new habits to prevent yourself or anyone close to you from getting infected?