I tend to think Jesus is coming back pretty soon

[surada]

Nothing in the first chapter of Revelation tells us that the Revelation is limited to the first century. Anyone who has read the Book of Revelation knows that the revelation is a prophecy of the last days and the end if the world. Has that happened yet? NO! We've already gone through your false assumption that the phrase "shortly come to pass" limits the revelation to the first century. Verse 1 of the chapter states:

Revelation 1:1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

In God's time frame, what must shortly come to pass could span over thousands of years. Going forward to Revelation 12 we read:

Revelation 12:12
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Here we read in the same Book of Revelation that John has written that the devil came down from being cast out of heaven having great wrath because he knew that his time on earth would be short. Satan was cast out of heaven before the days of Adam and Eve and was present in the Garden of Eden to tempt Eve. Nearly 6000 years later and he is still upon the earth tempting mankind in that short time he has. That short time spoken of has lasted for nearly 6000 years. So when the Lord shows John things which must shortly come to pass, he is speaking of things in his own outlook or timeframe and not John's which could last several thousand years.

Revelation speaks of the millennial reign of Christ for 1000 years and then the end of the temporal existence of this earth when the heavens and the earth as we know them shall pass away and a new heaven and earth will come where there will be no sea.

Revelation 21:1
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Obviously these revelations do not simply pertain to the 1st century and we still have the seas with us today and Christ is yet to reign on this earth for 1000 years.

Its written in the present tense..

and then there's this:

Matt. 24:34 “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”

 

[surada]

onefour1

“The seven heads of the beast represent the seven hills where the woman rules” (Revelation 17:9).

Jerusalem was built on seven hills.

In the OT the prophets lambast Israel as a whore, prostitute, harlot for whoring after false gods.

 

[surada]

A couple of observations concerning the New Testament in general and about the letter of revelation in particular. The first of these would be that all the letters written to the churches, in contrast to the letters written to individuals, would have been read to the respective churches.

They would have been read, out loud, in whole. There is no doubt about this fact. The first century church did not study the Bible in topics, they read and heard the letters read out loud and in total.

Secondly and more amazing, is that when they heard the letters read, whether it was Galatians or Revelation, they understood every word of what they had heard and were comforted and instructed in the way of the Lord.

 

[norwegen]

Its written in the present tense..

and then there's this:

Matt. 24:34 “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”

And this one:

Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. (Mt 16:28)

 

[surada]

And this one:

Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. (Mt 16:28)

Thanks.. I was trying to remember that verse from Matthew. Revelation is a letter of hope to the churches.

 

[norwegen]

Thanks.. I was trying to remember that verse from Matthew. Revelation is a letter of hope to the churches.

Someone tried to tell me once - was it on these boards, maybe? - that John the Baptist has not died yet.

LOL

As if Jesus was even talking to him in the first place.

 

[onefour1]

Its written in the present tense..

and then there's this:

Matt. 24:34 “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”

The Lord is telling us that the things spoken of in Revelation must shortly come to pass. It is speaking of things that have not yet transpired. He is speaking of the future not things that have already come to pass.

Regarding Matthew 24:34, Jesus spoke the following to his disciples:

Luke 9:27​

27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Matthew 16:28​

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mark 9:1​

1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

In particular, was the promise to John the Revelator that he should tarry till the Lord come again in the glory of his kingdom.

John 21:20-24
20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.


Jesus told his disciples that there were some among them who would not taste of death till they see the kingdom of God come with power. John the Beloved who wrote the Book of Revelation was among those who would be allowed to tarry on the earth until Jesus was to come in all his glory with his kingdom. At that time John would then be allowed to die. Thus the generation that existed at the time Jesus prophesied has not all passed away yet. There be some who have not yet tasted of death until Jesus comes in his glory. This is the true meaning of John 24:34. That generation still has not fully passed away or tasted of death.

 

[onefour1]

onefour1

“The seven heads of the beast represent the seven hills where the woman rules” (Revelation 17:9).

Jerusalem was built on seven hills.

In the OT the prophets lambast Israel as a whore, prostitute, harlot for whoring after false gods.

Not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand, but you should also realize, Rome was built upon seven hills.

 

[onefour1]

A couple of observations concerning the New Testament in general and about the letter of revelation in particular. The first of these would be that all the letters written to the churches, in contrast to the letters written to individuals, would have been read to the respective churches.

They would have been read, out loud, in whole. There is no doubt about this fact. The first century church did not study the Bible in topics, they read and heard the letters read out loud and in total.

Secondly and more amazing, is that when they heard the letters read, whether it was Galatians or Revelation, they understood every word of what they had heard and were comforted and instructed in the way of the Lord.

Where does it state that those of the churches fully understood every word of the Revelation of John?

 

[surada]

The Lord is telling us that the things spoken of in Revelation must shortly come to pass. It is speaking of things that have not yet transpired. He is speaking of the future not things that have already come to pass.

Regarding Matthew 24:34, Jesus spoke the following to his disciples:

Luke 9:27​

27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Matthew 16:28​

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mark 9:1​

1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

In particular, was the promise to John the Revelator that he should tarry till the Lord come again in the glory of his kingdom.

John 21:20-24
20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.


Jesus told his disciples that there were some among them who would not taste of death till they see the kingdom of God come with power. John the Beloved who wrote the Book of Revelation was among those who would be allowed to tarry on the earth until Jesus was to come in all his glory with his kingdom. At that time John would then be allowed to die. Thus the generation that existed at the time Jesus prophesied has not all passed away yet. There be some who have not yet tasted of death until Jesus comes in his glory. This is the true meaning of John 24:34. That generation still has not fully passed away or tasted of death.

Maybe if you understood the Book of Daniel as it was written in 126 BC during the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the Maccabean revolt the first century Revelation letter to the 7 churches would make more sense.

 

[surada]

Not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand, but you should also realize, Rome was built upon seven hills.

But Rome is not the whore of Babylon.. Israel is according to all the prophets who scolded Israel's whoring after false gods. Rome had NO relationship with Babylon.

Rev 11:8

Their dead bodies will be in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified

 

[onefour1]

Maybe if you understood the Book of Daniel as it was written in 126 BC during the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the Maccabean revolt the first century Revelation letter to the 7 churches would make more sense.

I don't believe that the Book of Daniel was written in the 2nd century BC. see The Case for a Sixth Century Dating of Daniel. So to begin with I believe you are incorrect as to when the Book of Daniel was even written. Daniel was a prophet more so than a historian as the Lord Jesus declared:

Mark 13:14​

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judæa flee to the mountains:

Matthew 24:15​

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

 

[surada]

I don't believe that the Book of Daniel was written in the 2nd century BC. see The Case for a Sixth Century Dating of Daniel. So to begin with I believe you are incorrect as to when the Book of Daniel was even written. Daniel was a prophet more so than a historian as the Lord Jesus declared:

Mark 13:14​

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judæa flee to the mountains:

Matthew 24:15​

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Daniel was written by a group of Jews to encourage Jews who were reeling from the persecutions of Antiochus IV and attempts to Hellenize the Jews circa 128-26.. That's the Abomination of Desolation the Jesus was referencing.. Education helps.

 

[dudmuck]

Daniel was written by a group of Jews to encourage Jews who were reeling from the persecutions of Antiochus IV and attempts to Hellenize the Jews circa 128-26.. That's the Abomination of Desolation the Jesus was referencing.. Education helps.

does Papyrus 967 say that also?

 

[onefour1]

Daniel was written by a group of Jews to encourage Jews who were reeling from the persecutions of Antiochus IV and attempts to Hellenize the Jews circa 128-26.. That's the Abomination of Desolation the Jesus was referencing.. Education helps.

This was not the abomination of desolation that Jesus spoke of. Here are the words of Jesus:

Matthew 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Here Jesus is speaking of a future event when he says, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet". It couldn't be the past event you speak of for those whom he was speaking to could not go back in history to see the acts of Antiochus IV.

 

[surada]

does Papyrus 967 say that also?

Don't know. Isn't that 3rd century AD ..

Most Christians ignore Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the Maccabean Revolt, but it is essential in understanding what Jesus said about when you see the Abomination of desolation (again) flee Jerusalem for the mountains.

Jesus says that those living in Judea must flee to the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation. “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

They did flee to the mountains .. to Pella and avoided the tribulation.

 

[Smokin' OP]

Religion instills self-discipline, so no, it is not about the masses, but about the individual. It is government that is after the control of the masses. Individual self-discipline and choice instilled by religion scares them because it creates a mass that is beyond control. Self-control is scary to government because those with self-control are not easily manipulated.

No, it doesn't.
Religious people commit 'sins' all week long, then go to church and all is forgiven.

Self discipline?
Believe, defend and support this, and you will go to heaven.

Religious people are the most easily manipulated people on earth.

 

[Meriweather]

No, it doesn't.
Religious people commit 'sins' all week long, then go to church and all is forgiven.

Self discipline?
Believe, defend and support this, and you will go to heaven.

Religious people are the most easily manipulated people on earth.

I am sorry if this is true for all those you know. It certainly is not for those I know. Those I know are continually working to be the best version of themselves possible. Good people.

 

[Mr Natural]

Jesus in the form of St Trumpy the Wonderful was already here and crucified once again.

 

[foggedinn]

2thess2 2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

When was that man of sin revealed? I will grant that there is a falling away and there are certainly many scoffers. I believe that there will be a thousand years of peace between the revelation of that man of sin and the return of Jesus. Christ means the Lords anointed. NT Christians seem to reserve the word exclusively for Jesus. Christ will rule for a thousand years before Jesus returns to save us from the wrath of God. To quote Isaiah, "men will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks and learn war no more".

There is no reason to fear the revelation of that man of sin. We should pray for it.