I never thought it possible for our country to go to war based on assumptions

[Psychoblues]

Or false information, or unverified facts as explained to us from the powers that can and do create "WAR". Let me put this into perspective.

I am a three time veteran of the Viet Nam experience. I didn't serve a full tour there but I was sent three times on temporary duty to perform missions that were and are classified. I believed in the Viet Nam altercation as of benefit to Democracy. I still think it could have been but let's not rake over old coals.

I also did the Grenada thing. I believed and saw American lives and aspirations in danger there. I performed my mission and continue to be satisfied that what I did was the correct thing to do.

I was heavily involved in the Panama/Noriega thing. Yes, I still think it proper that we went in and pay no attention whatsoever to the "Just Because" accusation as it relates to the "Just Cause" operation.

Last, but not least by any stretch, I served in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere from November '90 until June '91. Hussein was kicked out of Kuwait and rightly so. But now to the present war against not Hussein but the peoples of Iraq. Hussein is in American custody,, correct me if I'm wrong.

We went into Iraq to find and destroy weapons of mass destrucion that were heavily advertised as being both directly aimed at us, the US, and to facilitate a "regime change" that made these purported WMD's such a threat to us. The "regime change" has been substantially completed. The promised WMD's as stated for our purposes for WAR have not been found. In fact, all intelligence that led us to believe in their existense and their intent has been overwhelmingly disproven. I can't buy that we went into Iraq based on such erroneous information unless there is something much more sinister involved.

I cannot produce or understand praise for the decisions of an Administration that has so misled us. Americans can and will do better. I certainly still believe in the goodness as well as the Greatness of our American ideology and ways of life. I used the plural of "way" to exemplify our diversity. I choose honesty over ignorance, I choose peaceful demonstration over adversarial violence. I choose reliable information over perception. I choose Peace against War except in cases where there is no choice except War. I think we made a wrong choice in this War against the peoples of Iraq. Time will certainly tell whether my perception in this case are accurate or not. So far, it appears that I am correct.

 

[Annie]

Psycho, at face value let me say thank you, thank you for all of your service. I agee, we went into Iraq with WMD at the forefront, though by no means the only justification, just the most popular and publicized. I truly believe that the administration though they were there, so you are correct on that count. The rest of the world agreed with their assumption, while they may be proven right someday, that day is not now.

However, the less publicized reasons included Saddam's support for terrorists, via Palestinians that was a good enough reason. Point 2, terror in general, specifically Al-Queda, again, the nexus becomes clearer by the day.

 

[Psychoblues]

The propagation of WMD's, Kathianne, were the ONLY overwhelming reason that we went into Iraq as is much more widely known and perceived by others than myself. So, stop that, you're only bullshitting yourself.

The Palestinians also pose no threat to Americans. I presently work with several of them in a verry mundane small town job. They neither present a problem for me or embrace an ideolgy that might be misconstrued as such. In all my experience in the Mid East I never met a Palestinian that desired confrontation with American people or ideolgy. And I met some fairly high level types within the Palestinian communities.

You indicate, as our Administration has many times, a connection with "terror" as another cause for our invasion of Iraq. There quite simply is no connection. Hell, George W. Bush terrorizes me and my view of freedom far more than any Iraqi ever has including Saddam Hussein. Your allusion to the Hussein connection to the Palestinians, well, they share an Arabic brotherhood. It's a regional thing and should in no way involve American intervention other than our attempts to promote Democracy. I submit that WAR is not a viable introduction to Democracy within any society that does not within itself create the will and indoctrination that compels the ideological transformation. In other words, Democracy can't be forced on anyone. Just look at our own political quagmire.

You repeat yourself, as is a common Reich Wing propensity. But truth be told, there is and never has been any substantial connection between Hussein and Al Queda. Stop promoting that falsehood, Kathianne.

 

[William Joyce]

I never thought we'd go to war at the behest of the Jews, but now that we've done it three times and counting, I'm getting used to it.

 

[Psychoblues]

Been watching a little too much FOX TV, eh, William Joyce?

 

[clumzgirl]

I agree with Kathianne in thanking you for your service.
And while we are all entitled to our views, we cannot undo the past.
What do you suggest we do now?

 

[jeffperkinstech]

Kathianne...let me get this straight...it is OK to use the reason for targeting Saddam, is partly, because he supported the Palistinian terrorists attacking Israel, but it is not our 'War on Terror' to actually defend Israel, let alone attack the Palistinian terrorists?

 

[tim_duncan2000]

Hell, George W. Bush terrorizes me and my view of freedom far more than any Iraqi ever has including Saddam Hussein.

Examples?

In all my experience in the Mid East I never met a Palestinian that desired confrontation with American people or ideolgy. And I met some fairly high level types within the Palestinian communities.

Then where are all these suicide bombers and other terrorists coming from then? Can't you at least admit that the Arab countries have done little to solve the problems the Palestinians face? All they offer is anti-Israel/anti-US rhetoric and they encourage them to keep attacking Israel with suicide bombers. Where has that gotten them? There also have been times where Israel tries to offer something and some Palestinian representatives (like Arafat) would not accept it?

And about WMD. I hope you were just as pissed off when Democrats and many others around the world claimed Iraq had them since 1998. You might say that maybe they had them then and don't now, but it's just as likely that they might not have had them then. And don't forget about the Iraq Liberation Act by Clinton. Speaking of Clinton, I also hope you were just as pissed off about Kosovo and the so-called ethnic cleansing. It was pretty much a civil war, and the KLA are not exactly the good guys and it was not such a one-sided campaign.

 

[Psychoblues]

What we should do now is a much more complex and involved circumstance than you might imagine . I could give you a 500 page report but I'll spare you the indulgence. Spare me, as well.

 

[Psychoblues]

It's on the chillin' side, Sir Evil!!!!!! Wassup wit U?

Germany has experienced unilateralism. France has been a victim or it. Russia definitely has political problems but what about China? What about truth? My man, Sir Evil, the world is a round thing. And we keep going in circles. I can't change that, how 'bout your ideas?

 

[Psychoblues]

OK, Tim. It's apparent you listen to propaganda with little knowledge of facts. Bill Clinton will probably suffer for a century for the failures of the Republicans to remove him from his rightfully and honestly elected office but that's water under the bridge, ain't it? Git a grip, my friend. Don't let me or anyone else lie to you, can you dig it? Don't leave it for the juveniles and less than honest educators, Tim, educate yourself. But you can't do that without being open to factual presentation. Tsk, tsk, that's why mankind is still warring after all these years.

 

[Psychoblues]

Erasing the tensions between the US and Russia will not happen in our lifetimes, Sir Evil. Particularly since our CIC refers to their preferred leader as "Pooty Poot". But that's just a general example of his, GWB's, ignorance and disrespect, don't cha know it? Now China has way too much business propensity for any self respecting US or even European or African or othe Asian market to ignore.

But the facts remain. Germany, France, Russia, China and even the majority of the population of our closet ally in this senseless war, England, are fundamentally opposed to American unilateralism and intervention in Iraq. As Americans, we don't see much of the reporting of facts concerning their attitudes or even our reasons for embarking on this so unwise and ill-informed endeavor of "Democratising Iraq". It's a new thought, but not so intelligent, IMHO.

 

[Psychoblues]

And sooner or later GWB will be recognised as the international fool that he is and this War in Iraq and exploitation of the only resourse that Iraq has, in the minds of business, their oil, will be evidence enough for the worlds population to accept that American Free Trade and Democracy ain't all it's cracked up to be. Or have you thought that far, Sir Evil?

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Psychoblues
And sooner or later GWB will be recognised as the international fool that he is and this War in Iraq and exploitation of the only resourse that Iraq has, in the minds of business, their oil, will be evidence enough for the worlds population to accept that American Free Trade and Democracy ain't all it's cracked up to be. Or have you thought that far, Sir Evil?

I thought that far! Then I woke up and realized I was no longer dreaming conspiracy theories.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Sir Evil
This oil thing has been tossed around over and over before! I see no proof of it, and do have to agree with Jim here that right now it's all a conspiracy theory! Do you really believe that Saddam should of been left in power? Do you really think Iraq was not a neccasary target? Ok, perhaps not the top target, but it ranked pretty high to me!

So many retards claim it's all about the oil, yet not one of the knuckleheads can come up with a shred of proof. Their blind hatred makes them say some funny shit though, ain't it? Bunch of damn imbeciles if you ask me.

 

[Psychoblues]

Sorry to confuse you, jimnyc. I don't purport any conspiracy theory. As is common amongst the less educated and propagandised, you imply conspiracy. I indicated propensities as I have personally witnessed and even inadvertantly been party to on occasion. What's your beef?

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Psychoblues
Sorry to confuse you, jimnyc. I don't purport any conspiracy theory. As is common amongst the less educated and propagandised, you imply conspiracy. I indicated propensities as I have personally witnessed and even inadvertantly been party to on occasion. What's your beef?

Supply us with the specific facts to show this war is about oil. Without that, you have nothing more than a conspiracy theory. That was simple, wasn't it? Actually, saying the war is all about oil is 'simple'.

 

[Psychoblues]

Goodness, jimnyc, did you take your Prozac today? Apparently you were writing while I was writing. You've warned and even admonished me for personal attacks. Even third party, yours are much more than anything I've ever seen here on USMB. Tsk, tsk.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Psychoblues
Goodness, jimnyc, did you take your Prozac today? Apparently you were writing while I was writing. You've warned and even admonished me for personal attacks. Even third party, yours are much more than anything I've ever seen here on USMB. Tsk, tsk.

Shut up, stupid!

Can you supply the facts or not? Do you think I'm going to say pretty please? Don't hold your breath!

 

[Psychoblues]

Get a goddamned grip, jimnyc. Oil is the only possible explanation for this over reaching and ill conceived war. Or maybe it was supposed to be the ticket for creating new but non creative jobs? I dunno. Beyond my pay scale.