Should the west go to war with Russia?

[justoffal]

NATO will not be attacked by Russia, a country that wants to live.

Yeah....they may be bold but they're not stupid.

 

[justoffal]

Russia is particularly vulnerable right now, and the US has justification for going to war with them.

Unless they decide to nuke....
Which, even though some here say it wouldn't be that bad, () would most definitely be bad for everyone.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Unless they decide to nuke....
Which, even though some here say it wouldn't be that bad, () would most definitely be bad for everyone.

Russia wouldn't dare to nuke anyone. They keep threatening it, because they know that's all they've got, Putin doesn't want to die. Russia is pretty simply, nuke Moscow, nuke St. Petersburg and you've done half the job and almost certainly got rid of Putin.

 

[justoffal]

Russia wouldn't dare to nuke anyone. They keep threatening it, because they know that's all they've got, Putin doesn't want to die. Russia is pretty simply, nuke Moscow, nuke St. Petersburg and you've done half the job and almost certainly got rid of Putin.

I wish I was that sure. Russia has successfully developed 100 megaton payloads. The Tsar Bomba was actually 100 megs but they were so unsure what it would do that they deliberately hamstung it to 50. Seventy five years later that area is still a no go. Two or three of those would eliminate normal life in an entire hemisphere for 100 years or better. Russia doesn't need to survive for that to happen.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I wish I was that sure. Russia has successfully developed 100 megaton payloads. The Tsar Bomba was actually 100 megs but they were so unsure what it would do that they deliberately hamstung it to 50. Seventy five years later that area is still a no go. Two or three of those would eliminate normal life in an entire hemisphere for 100 years or better. Russia doesn't need to survive for that to happen.

Problem is that MAD has always worked, because it doesn't benefit those people who don't have to go to the front and get their hands dirty.

 

[there4eyeM]

The "West" did not stop the U.S. from the illegal Iraq invasion, so the precedent for inaction is recent enough. The lessons of WWII, however, might suggest of more full evaluation of things.

 

[justoffal]

Problem is that MAD has always worked, because it doesn't benefit those people who don't have to go to the front and get their hands dirty.

Good point

 

[luiza]

The US is decades behind Russian preparedness in an otherwise mutually disastrous scenario .

And in the event of Armageddon I feel sure Russia would immediately eliminate any UK and French response assets and China , N Korea and Iran would deal with remaining US stragglers .

The computers are unable to find any possible US "winning" outcome

 

[justoffal]

The US is decades behind Russian preparedness in an otherwise mutually disastrous scenario .

And in the event of Armageddon I feel sure Russia would immediately eliminate any UK and French response assets and China , N Korea and Iran would deal with remaining US stragglers .

The computers are unable to find any possible US "winning" outcome

I've been saying this for years.

 

[MarcATL]

^^^
One of our premier Russia First posters here

 

[Libby von H]

I'm not advocating war with Russia. Just asking a theoretical question.

Here's the background to why I ask this question.

Russia is attacking the west.

Thousands of flights to and from Europe affected by suspected Russian jamming

About 46,000 aircraft have logged GPS problems over Baltic Sea since August, says report

uk.yahoo.com

"Thousands of flights to and from Europe affected by suspected Russian jamming"

List of Russian assassinations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Russian assassinations in the west.

Zelimkhan Khangoshvili in Berlin, six in Turkey, Umar Israilov in Austria, Alexander Litvinenko in the UK along with another case where they failed, this list also doesn't have an assassination in Spain recently.

Is Russia Undermining Democracy in the West? Conference Report - Foreign Policy Research Institute

On March 14, 2019, the Andrea Mitchell Center for the Study of Democracy hosted a conference titled “Is Russia Undermining Democracy in the West?” as a part of its year-long “Democracy in Trouble?” series. Panelists from the military, government, and academic communities participated. The...

www.fpri.org

Russian interference in democracy in the west.

"In the second panel, “Have Elections Become Cyberwars?,” panelists discussed the framing of cyberwar in the 2016 U.S. presidential election and recommended U.S. responses."

The west has two choices.

1) To carry on as it's doing and try and stop these attacks, deal with them as they happen, allowing Russia to literally act like it's at war, but pretend that Russia isn't at war

2) Take out Putin, get rid of the source of the problem, send a message to China that it is not acceptable to do such things.

After Biden , Pelosi, Kerry gave China a pass on Organ Harvesting, Rounding up Uyghurs, Persecution of Christians and Falun Gong -- to get a Climate treaty being violated tremendously right now...it would like pure aggession on our part

This is from the South China Morning Post

China doubles down on coal with rapid roll-out of new railway track to the world’s largest deposit​

• 257km line from Zhundong open pit to Urumqi will increase the mine’s transport capacity to more than 100 million tonnes a year

China doubles down on the world’s largest coalfield with new rail track

257km line from Zhundong open pit to Urumqi will increase the mine’s transport capacity to more than 100 million tonnes a year.

www.scmp.com

 

[1srelluc]

Greater Russia is at war with Lesser Russia....It's nothing new historically....Leave them be.

List of wars between Russia and Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[White 6]

Well, I'd say the previous Cold War ended. Things changed and a new one is rising up. The republicans claimed to have defeated the USSR, but needed a common enemy more than the democrats.

No. The previous Cold War was with Russia and still is. It never stopped. They simply changed the name from United Soviet Socialist Republic, under Russia rule and direction, to simply Russia. They didn't exactly become some bastion of freedom and human rights, and fair trade, nor did they give up designs on their empire. They have worked toward putting it back together ever since, just as a slow pace with long term goal moved down the calendar, but never forgotten or worked toward. The satellite countries never wished to be under Russian control, saw their chance and temporarily escaped that control. The USSR under Russia was always a strong man controlled, military police state. They remain a strong man controlled military police state with goal of taking and keeping control of all previous satellite countries and moving to spread and take over Europe. The methods are very much the same, first with Russian moving west, living, blending, influencing with presence, propaganda, covert action, intimidation to create a chaotic environment ripe for military takeover. It is straight out of the Spetznaz/KGB playbook with Putin well versed in the methods, having worked or controlled both, and knowing the methods work, whether initially resistant population initially reject or not. Key objectors or political opponents cans always, simply be killed, and the game goes on, with adjusted timetable. The goal that never changed is the problem. The plan is fine. The plan works. The plan being executed by the Russian empire seekers must be broken, to protect Europe and the free world, for the free world to remain free.

 

[there4eyeM]

The opportunity offered by the peaceful collapse of the Soviet Union was horribly mis-managed by the "West". The change in people in charge since then is modest at most. We can expect no better performance from the present system.

 

[frigidweirdo]

No. The previous Cold War was with Russia and still is. It never stopped. They simply changed the name from United Soviet Socialist Republic, under Russia rule and direction, to simply Russia. They didn't exactly become some bastion of freedom and human rights, and fair trade, nor did they give up designs on their empire. They have worked toward putting it back together ever since, just as a slow pace with long term goal moved down the calendar, but never forgotten or worked toward. The satellite countries never wished to be under Russian control, saw their chance and temporarily escaped that control. The USSR under Russia was always a strong man controlled, military police state. They remain a strong man controlled military police state with goal of taking and keeping control of all previous satellite countries and moving to spread and take over Europe. The methods are very much the same, first with Russian moving west, living, blending, influencing with presence, propaganda, covert action, intimidation to create a chaotic environment ripe for military takeover. It is straight out of the Spetznaz/KGB playbook with Putin well versed in the methods, having worked or controlled both, and knowing the methods work, whether initially resistant population initially reject or not. Key objectors or political opponents cans always, simply be killed, and the game goes on, with adjusted timetable. The goal that never changed is the problem. The plan is fine. The plan works. The plan being executed by the Russian empire seekers must be broken, to protect Europe and the free world, for the free world to remain free.

Well, Stalin wasn't Russian. Brezhnev was born in the Ukraine. His nationality was sometimes Russian, sometimes Ukrainian. Chernenko was Ukranian but born in Siberia.

Things have changed. It's now Russia, not the USSR. Sure, Russia controlled the USSR, but they also don't have the Warsaw Pact countries. They have China, to a very, very, very limited degree.

 

[DigitalDrifter]

I'm not advocating war with Russia. Just asking a theoretical question.

Here's the background to why I ask this question.

Russia is attacking the west.

Thousands of flights to and from Europe affected by suspected Russian jamming

About 46,000 aircraft have logged GPS problems over Baltic Sea since August, says report

uk.yahoo.com

"Thousands of flights to and from Europe affected by suspected Russian jamming"

List of Russian assassinations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Russian assassinations in the west.

Zelimkhan Khangoshvili in Berlin, six in Turkey, Umar Israilov in Austria, Alexander Litvinenko in the UK along with another case where they failed, this list also doesn't have an assassination in Spain recently.

Is Russia Undermining Democracy in the West? Conference Report - Foreign Policy Research Institute

On March 14, 2019, the Andrea Mitchell Center for the Study of Democracy hosted a conference titled “Is Russia Undermining Democracy in the West?” as a part of its year-long “Democracy in Trouble?” series. Panelists from the military, government, and academic communities participated. The...

www.fpri.org

Russian interference in democracy in the west.

"In the second panel, “Have Elections Become Cyberwars?,” panelists discussed the framing of cyberwar in the 2016 U.S. presidential election and recommended U.S. responses."

The west has two choices.

1) To carry on as it's doing and try and stop these attacks, deal with them as they happen, allowing Russia to literally act like it's at war, but pretend that Russia isn't at war

2) Take out Putin, get rid of the source of the problem, send a message to China that it is not acceptable to do such things.

Remember when you guys laughed at Romney, when he suggested Russia was the biggest threat around the world?

 

[White 6]

Well, Stalin wasn't Russian. Brezhnev was born in the Ukraine. His nationality was sometimes Russian, sometimes Ukrainian. Chernenko was Ukranian but born in Siberia.

Things have changed. It's now Russia, not the USSR. Sure, Russia controlled the USSR, but they also don't have the Warsaw Pact countries. They have China, to a very, very, very limited degree.

Limited degree is even an overstatement. They have zero control over China.
They try to operate, as they always did. I see no difference, really. It is not like they came to the world and said the Russia declares the Cold War, over, when they had to downsize due to economic reality, and the controlled countries slipped their grasp, forestalling plans. I know we declared it, but they were not consulted. Nothing was signed, and the enemy always gets a vote. This isn't rocket science Sun Tzu knew this crap 6,000 years ago. Come on, man!

 

[frigidweirdo]

Remember when you guys laughed at Romney, when he suggested Russia was the biggest threat around the world?

"you guys"? Who do you think I am?

 

[frigidweirdo]

Limited degree is even an overstatement. They have zero control over China.
They try to operate, as they always did. I see no difference, really. It is not like they came to the world and said the Russia declares the Cold War, over, when they had to downsize due to economic reality, and the controlled countries slipped their grasp, forestalling plans. I know we declared it, but they were not consulted. Nothing was signed, and the enemy always gets a vote. This isn't rocket science Sun Tzu knew this crap 6,000 years ago. Come on, man!

They have a certain amount of control over China. For example they told China they'd go to war, China said they didn't like it, and yet supported Russia. Then China said they'd make a peace deal and Russia told them to fuck off.

Russia is causing problems for China's Belt and Road Initiative. And Because of their joint anti-American stance, China is going along with things it doesn't like.

 

[ThisIsMe]

I'm not advocating war with Russia. Just asking a theoretical question.

Here's the background to why I ask this question.

Russia is attacking the west.

Thousands of flights to and from Europe affected by suspected Russian jamming

About 46,000 aircraft have logged GPS problems over Baltic Sea since August, says report

uk.yahoo.com

"Thousands of flights to and from Europe affected by suspected Russian jamming"

List of Russian assassinations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Russian assassinations in the west.

Zelimkhan Khangoshvili in Berlin, six in Turkey, Umar Israilov in Austria, Alexander Litvinenko in the UK along with another case where they failed, this list also doesn't have an assassination in Spain recently.

Is Russia Undermining Democracy in the West? Conference Report - Foreign Policy Research Institute

On March 14, 2019, the Andrea Mitchell Center for the Study of Democracy hosted a conference titled “Is Russia Undermining Democracy in the West?” as a part of its year-long “Democracy in Trouble?” series. Panelists from the military, government, and academic communities participated. The...

www.fpri.org

Russian interference in democracy in the west.

"In the second panel, “Have Elections Become Cyberwars?,” panelists discussed the framing of cyberwar in the 2016 U.S. presidential election and recommended U.S. responses."

The west has two choices.

1) To carry on as it's doing and try and stop these attacks, deal with them as they happen, allowing Russia to literally act like it's at war, but pretend that Russia isn't at war

2) Take out Putin, get rid of the source of the problem, send a message to China that it is not acceptable to do such things.

… we already are at war with Russia…we’re just using Ukraine to do it