I Believe in a New Christian Cosmography

[JimBowie1958]

There are many Truths coming from Christianity that are encrusted with assumption. Some of the greatest of these assumptions are that the perspective of the Biblical authors was universal and all encompassing. That when they speak of Jesus saving all mankind that He didnt also not save sentient beings that are not human, for example, or that this is the only universe God Created.

So rather than beating around the bush any more, I'll just dive right in to the main points.

The Father is Eternal, as is the Son and the Holy Ghost that emanates from both the Father and the Son. The Father is outside the flow of time and space, but the Son is the Firstborn of Creation. The only way that both these Truths can be true is that there are an infinitie number of universes created by God throughout Eternity.

This must also be true from another perspective as ell, in that God is immutable and does not change. If God existed in a condition that had no Creation for Him to love, He would not be the same kind of God that has a Creation to Love. But God cannot change and the universe is not Eternal like God, so there must be many universes and some of them would have sentient beings, because God needs sentient beings to be God in the fullest meaning of the Christian God.

So Jesus can be both Eternal and also the 'first-born' of Creation.

Another topic that seems clear to me now is that Hell is eternal as it is the condition or state of rejecting God and there will always be those who reject and rebel against God in one universe or another. So there will always be a Hell and a Hellfire, but that does not mean that all those sent to the Hellfire or Gehenna are going to be there for all Eternity. People change and as they change God will respond to them as He Wills that ALL be saved from the Hellfire and commune with Him for all Eternity. And we know too that God's Will will triumph over all.

Christianity has come to this belief about people spending all of eternity in the hellfire because of the exclusiveness of Judaism in its earliest form as a tribal religion. Only Jews counted as God's Chosen people, and the Gentiles were just so many common vessels to be broken and discarded while the Jewish people were rightly exalted above all other nations and placed in a position of honor, showing their special relationship with God because of His love for Abraham and his sons.

Christianity expanded the franchise to the Gentile nations and made salvation a universal call. But so far we have not looked too closely at the concept of how dynamic a process salvation remains after our death. That we can still respond to God and be forgiven if we truly repent after our death. But the clear implication to me is that God Wills for us all to be forgiven and to spend Eternity in communion with God, and so it will be the case without exception. One day even the Devil will be forgive and will worship God in humble adoration of Him.

Over the years the Christians I have shared this with were either already in a state of faith that could understand and see the Truth of it, or they were still thinking in religious tribal terms and could not. Among the objections were the following:
1) God cannot sacrifice His Son for our Sins if the alternative were that people could still be saved after their death. But this is not True. All forgiveness comes by the Blood of Christ, even if there is no knowledge and acceptance of Christ. Salvation, i.e. knowing that you can circumvent the fires of Gehenna, is made available to all through Gods revelation, but that does not mean that the process of Salvation ends with our deaths. IF God can bend the rules for us while we live why can He not bend them after we die? It is not revealed to us because that is not the target audience the Bible is written to, but to the living who must still respond in this life, not the next life. There is no basis for assuming that the process of salvation ends with death.
2) The point of salvation is to spare as many as possible the learning and disciplining process of the Hell fire itself. The hell fire is remedial education, and if we can avoid it completely we can and should. I would take great pains and effort to allow my children in this life to avoid as much pain as possible, why wouldnt the Firstborn of Creation also?
3) Jesus parables sometimes speak of being rejected by the King and those who were not faithful being cast out into the darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, but again, this is not stated to be an eternal fate.
4) How can the punishment of the Hellfire be less than the punishment of Purgatory? I dont think that Purgatory is a punishment at all. I think it has pain and suffering, but it is not all pain and suffering just as our currentlives have pain and suffering but also great beauty also. To say one should not look forward to Purgatory is the same logic that would lead to suicide from this life. Sure there is pain and some downside tot his life, but it is still better to be alive than dead, and Purgatory will be an improvement on this life in every way imaginable.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Very interesting and I have no desire to quarrel.

Have you been influenced by Carlton Pearson of Tulsa?

 

[hangover]

There are many Truths coming from Christianity that are encrusted with assumption. Some of the greatest of these assumptions are that the perspective of the Biblical authors was universal and all encompassing. That when they speak of Jesus saving all mankind that He didnt also not save sentient beings that are not human, for example, or that this is the only universe God Created.

So rather than beating around the bush any more, I'll just dive right in to the main points.

The Father is Eternal, as is the Son and the Holy Ghost that emanates from both the Father and the Son. The Father is outside the flow of time and space, but the Son is the Firstborn of Creation. The only way that both these Truths can be true is that there are an infinitie number of universes created by God throughout Eternity.

This must also be true from another perspective as ell, in that God is immutable and does not change. If God existed in a condition that had no Creation for Him to love, He would not be the same kind of God that has a Creation to Love. But God cannot change and the universe is not Eternal like God, so there must be many universes and some of them would have sentient beings, because God needs sentient beings to be God in the fullest meaning of the Christian God.

So Jesus can be both Eternal and also the 'first-born' of Creation.

Another topic that seems clear to me now is that Hell is eternal as it is the condition or state of rejecting God and there will always be those who reject and rebel against God in one universe or another. So there will always be a Hell and a Hellfire, but that does not mean that all those sent to the Hellfire or Gehenna are going to be there for all Eternity. People change and as they change God will respond to them as He Wills that ALL be saved from the Hellfire and commune with Him for all Eternity. And we know too that God's Will will triumph over all.

Christianity has come to this belief about people spending all of eternity in the hellfire because of the exclusiveness of Judaism in its earliest form as a tribal religion. Only Jews counted as God's Chosen people, and the Gentiles were just so many common vessels to be broken and discarded while the Jewish people were rightly exalted above all other nations and placed in a position of honor, showing their special relationship with God because of His love for Abraham and his sons.

Christianity expanded the franchise to the Gentile nations and made salvation a universal call. But so far we have not looked too closely at the concept of how dynamic a process salvation remains after our death. That we can still respond to God and be forgiven if we truly repent after our death. But the clear implication to me is that God Wills for us all to be forgiven and to spend Eternity in communion with God, and so it will be the case without exception. One day even the Devil will be forgive and will worship God in humble adoration of Him.

Over the years the Christians I have shared this with were either already in a state of faith that could understand and see the Truth of it, or they were still thinking in religious tribal terms and could not. Among the objections were the following:
1) God cannot sacrifice His Son for our Sins if the alternative were that people could still be saved after their death. But this is not True. All forgiveness comes by the Blood of Christ, even if there is no knowledge and acceptance of Christ. Salvation, i.e. knowing that you can circumvent the fires of Gehenna, is made available to all through Gods revelation, but that does not mean that the process of Salvation ends with our deaths. IF God can bend the rules for us while we live why can He not bend them after we die? It is not revealed to us because that is not the target audience the Bible is written to, but to the living who must still respond in this life, not the next life. There is no basis for assuming that the process of salvation ends with death.
2) The point of salvation is to spare as many as possible the learning and disciplining process of the Hell fire itself. The hell fire is remedial education, and if we can avoid it completely we can and should. I would take great pains and effort to allow my children in this life to avoid as much pain as possible, why wouldnt the Firstborn of Creation also?
3) Jesus parables sometimes speak of being rejected by the King and those who were not faithful being cast out into the darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, but again, this is not stated to be an eternal fate.
4) How can the punishment of the Hellfire be less than the punishment of Purgatory? I dont think that Purgatory is a punishment at all. I think it has pain and suffering, but it is not all pain and suffering just as our currentlives have pain and suffering but also great beauty also. To say one should not look forward to Purgatory is the same logic that would lead to suicide from this life. Sure there is pain and some downside tot his life, but it is still better to be alive than dead, and Purgatory will be an improvement on this life in every way imaginable.

We are in the 21st century. It's been 2000 years since Jesus supposedly paid the price for sin, and defeated evil. If it is true, evil should not exist.
Well that didn't work...evil is still just as it was, if not more so.
Every time I turn around, God is getting blamed for disasters...earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, and on and on. If this is true, then God is evil.
Well the problem is people...they can't keep positive and negative in perspective.
God doesn't do negative, and evil doesn't do positive. God didn't destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, evil did.
People don't like taking responsibility for their choices. But karma (you reap what you sow) is as real as gravity and air. And everything that happens is the result of "cause and effect". BeCAUSE of what the people of Sodom and Gomorrah "chose", the result was.....the effect.
Karma, gravity, and air are "natural laws". It's futile to go against them. Just try not breathing.
So putting things in perspective....God is creation...it's positive and eternal. There is nothing that was not created...including evil. That does not make God evil, it's just a choice, so as to create freedom. But choosing evil is to choose to go against the creator of natural laws.
TA DA! KARMA!
Evil was created for God's purpose,. It has it's function...it destroys. But energy can't be destroyed, only changed. Creation does the changing, in spite of the destruction. Another natural law is, creation wins every time. Creation can't be defeated...nothing from nothing leaves nothing.
In the bible it says that there will be a war between good and evil, and of course the good guy will win. In the bible, it also says that in the beginning was the "word"....and that word created the "big bang" that is everything that exists. So why would there have to be a war between good and evil, when a "word" would could end evil? Well creation destroying evil would make positive negative. "A house divided against itself". Positive can't do negative, and negative can't do positive, otherwise it would CHANGE from what it is.
So the logical conclusion is, evil will destroy itself.
Okay, you got me, I'm not God...I'm just a dumb hippie.

 

[JimBowie1958]

We are in the 21st century. It's been 2000 years since Jesus supposedly paid the price for sin, and defeated evil. If it is true, evil should not exist.

That is simply an amazingly silly thing to say. Evil is not a chemical being diluted into the environment, it is simply sentient beings choosing to disobey God.

Well that didn't work...evil is still just as it was, if not more so.

No, Evil has been reduced per capita, but the 20th century re-opened Pandora's box for evil to thrive again.

Every time I turn around, God is getting blamed for disasters...earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, and on and on. If this is true, then God is evil.

Natural disasters are not evil, they are the unavoidable outlier consequences of good but entirely things like air currents and precipitation.

Well the problem is people...they can't keep positive and negative in perspective.
God doesn't do negative, and evil doesn't do positive. God didn't destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, evil did.

God did destroy Sodom precisely because it was evil and merited it.

People don't like taking responsibility for their choices. But karma (you reap what you sow) is as real as gravity and air. And everything that happens is the result of "cause and effect". BeCAUSE of what the people of Sodom and Gomorrah "chose", the result was.....the effect.

Meh, I dont see how raping a bunch of people causes fire and brimstone to fall from the sky.

Karma, gravity, and air are "natural laws". It's futile to go against them. Just try not breathing.
So putting things in perspective....God is creation...it's positive and eternal. There is nothing that was not created...including evil. That does not make God evil, it's just a choice, so as to create freedom. But choosing evil is to choose to go against the creator of natural laws.

Well, we agree on something.

Evil was created for God's purpose,. It has it's function...it destroys.

Evil is not a 'thing' it is the absence of God's Good and Order. It is like shadow being merely the absence of light.

But energy can't be destroyed, only changed. Creation does the changing, in spite of the destruction. Another natural law is, creation wins every time. Creation can't be defeated...nothing from nothing leaves nothing.

Agreed, mostly.

In the bible it says that there will be a war between good and evil, and of course the good guy will win. In the bible, it also says that in the beginning was the "word"....and that word created the "big bang" that is everything that exists. So why would there have to be a war between good and evil, when a "word" would could end evil?

Because evil is not a thing to be destroyed by a physical act. It is the consequence of amoral choice and that can only be pushed back by promoting the Truth and Good.

Well creation destroying evil would make positive negative. "A house divided against itself". Positive can't do negative, and negative can't do positive, otherwise it would CHANGE from what it is.
So the logical conclusion is, evil will destroy itself.

Evil is self destructive, but it is also a delusional mind set. People will get more self destructive under its influence and spread the mental disease before it can implode within the primary person.

Peoplle need to be persuaded to reject evil, to combat it at every opportunity, but first they have to learn to understand it and recognize it. This is why we have the concepts of the Seven Deadly Sins and the Seven Virtues.

 

[hangover]

We are in the 21st century. It's been 2000 years since Jesus supposedly paid the price for sin, and defeated evil. If it is true, evil should not exist.

That is simply an amazingly silly thing to say. Evil is not a chemical being diluted into the environment, it is simply sentient beings choosing to disobey God.

Well that didn't work...evil is still just as it was, if not more so.

No, Evil has been reduced per capita, but the 20th century re-opened Pandora's box for evil to thrive again.

Every time I turn around, God is getting blamed for disasters...earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, and on and on. If this is true, then God is evil.

Natural disasters are not evil, they are the unavoidable outlier consequences of good but entirely things like air currents and precipitation.

Well the problem is people...they can't keep positive and negative in perspective.
God doesn't do negative, and evil doesn't do positive. God didn't destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, evil did.

God did destroy Sodom precisely because it was evil and merited it.

People don't like taking responsibility for their choices. But karma (you reap what you sow) is as real as gravity and air. And everything that happens is the result of "cause and effect". BeCAUSE of what the people of Sodom and Gomorrah "chose", the result was.....the effect.

Meh, I dont see how raping a bunch of people causes fire and brimstone to fall from the sky.

Karma, gravity, and air are "natural laws". It's futile to go against them. Just try not breathing.
So putting things in perspective....God is creation...it's positive and eternal. There is nothing that was not created...including evil. That does not make God evil, it's just a choice, so as to create freedom. But choosing evil is to choose to go against the creator of natural laws.

Well, we agree on something.

Evil was created for God's purpose,. It has it's function...it destroys.

Evil is not a 'thing' it is the absence of God's Good and Order. It is like shadow being merely the absence of light.

But energy can't be destroyed, only changed. Creation does the changing, in spite of the destruction. Another natural law is, creation wins every time. Creation can't be defeated...nothing from nothing leaves nothing.

Agreed, mostly.

In the bible it says that there will be a war between good and evil, and of course the good guy will win. In the bible, it also says that in the beginning was the "word"....and that word created the "big bang" that is everything that exists. So why would there have to be a war between good and evil, when a "word" would could end evil?

Because evil is not a thing to be destroyed by a physical act. It is the consequence of amoral choice and that can only be pushed back by promoting the Truth and Good.

Well creation destroying evil would make positive negative. "A house divided against itself". Positive can't do negative, and negative can't do positive, otherwise it would CHANGE from what it is.
So the logical conclusion is, evil will destroy itself.

Evil is self destructive, but it is also a delusional mind set. People will get more self destructive under its influence and spread the mental disease before it can implode within the primary person.

People need to be persuaded to reject evil, to combat it at every opportunity, but first they have to learn to understand it and recognize it. This is why we have the concepts of the Seven Deadly Sins and the Seven Virtues.

You look at evil as a human. Evil existed before humanity. The only humans that believe in God, are those that have the "GOD GENE". "Many are called, but few are chosen." But it doesn't say ALL are called. Only those souls that the Holy Spirit touches can believe.
Even Jesus couldn't convert the evil spirit, but allowed it to go into the pigs that after receiving it, rushed off the cliff to their deaths. No one can convert and atheist, only the Holy Spirit can.

The God Gene: How Faith Is Hardwired into Our Genes
The God Gene: How Faith Is Hardwired into Our Genes: Dean H. Hamer: 9780385720311: Amazon.com: Books

 

[BreezeWood]

.
I Believe in a New Christian Cosmography

all for it, the Almighty without the christ as a beginning for the rewrite ...

But the clear implication to me is that God Wills for us all to be forgiven and to spend Eternity in communion with God, and so it will be the case without exception. One day even the Devil will be forgive and will worship God in humble adoration of Him.

then begin by making this an adult version, the Almighty "wills" admission to the Everlasting when the Triumph of Good vs Evil is accomplished, neither exceptions nor excuses allowed and prior to physiological death.

.

 

[hangover]

.
I Believe in a New Christian Cosmography

all for it, the Almighty without the christ as a beginning for the rewrite ...

But the clear implication to me is that God Wills for us all to be forgiven and to spend Eternity in communion with God, and so it will be the case without exception. One day even the Devil will be forgive and will worship God in humble adoration of Him.

then begin by making this an adult version, the Almighty "wills" admission to the Everlasting when the Triumph of Good vs Evil is accomplished, neither exceptions nor excuses allowed and prior to physiological death.

.

Without the existence of evil, there are no evil choices. No exceptions or excuses needed. No death.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Without the existence of evil, there are no evil choices. No exceptions or excuses needed. No death.

The evil choices made by some caused death to come, but that does not equate to a physical existence of evil, no more than sad choices prove the physical existence of sadness.

 

[BreezeWood]

Without the existence of evil, there are no evil choices. No exceptions or excuses needed. No death.

not quite sure what you are referencing the above to ... the Spirits triumph over evil does not eliminate what is evil only what possible evil was within the Spirit.

collectively the final Judgement will be when all present humanity has accomplished one or the other where all remaining will be the same, will be the Day of Judgement.

.

 

[xband]

Cosmography is a new word for me. An intelligent creator would be a new Cosmology.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Cosmography is a new word for me. An intelligent creator would be a new Cosmology.

Cosmography differs from Cosmology slightly.

Cosmography, IIRC, is about the 'lay of the land' so to speak regarding things that are related to Heaven, Earth, hell etc. It has come to be used mostly in reference to real physical places and less so to noumenal locales. The scientific acceptance of different planes of existence now makes such a Kantian dichotomy irrelevant and Heaven can be as real as any continent or star.

Cosmology is the system of knowledge one has to form a cognitive model of EVERYTHING, all knowledge from mathematics to theology to philosophy and science.

 

[xband]

Cosmography is a new word for me. An intelligent creator would be a new Cosmology.

Cosmography differs from Cosmology slightly.

Cosmography, IIRC, is about the 'lay of the land' so to speak regarding things that are related to Heaven, Earth, hell etc. It has come to be used mostly in reference to real physical places and less so to noumenal locales. The scientific acceptance of different planes of existence now makes such a Kantian dichotomy irrelevant and Heaven can be as real as any continent or star.

Cosmology is the system of knowledge one has to form a cognitive model of EVERYTHING, all knowledge from mathematics to theology to philosophy and science.

A parallel Universe could describe Dark Matter that holds the Milky Way together.

 

[JimBowie1958]

A parallel Universe could describe Dark Matter that holds the Milky Way together.

There is physical evidence of an existing universe at the time of the Big Bang.

 

[xband]

A parallel Universe could describe Dark Matter that holds the Milky Way together.

There is physical evidence of an existing universe at the time of the Big Bang.

That is why all of the excitement over Gravity Wave Detectors and Gravity Waves predicted by Einstein were recently discovered by LIGO in the US. The Dark Age of the Universe can never be seen through but perhaps can be by gravity wave echoes from the moment of Creation.

 

[hangover]

Without the existence of evil, there are no evil choices. No exceptions or excuses needed. No death.

The evil choices made by some caused death to come, but that does not equate to a physical existence of evil, no more than sad choices prove the physical existence of sadness.

There is no physical existence of evil, only physical effects of evil. There is positive energy and negative energy. And people are like prisms, what ever energy they absorb, they reflect.

 

[JimBowie1958]

There is no physical existence of evil, only physical effects of evil. There is positive energy and negative energy. And people are like prisms, what ever energy they absorb, they reflect.

This is not a quibble, but we understand that energy is a physical thing now.