Zone1 What does this mean to you?

[onefour1]

He's right. He's not the only one who understands this.

Yes the angels existed before the creation of the world, but we don't know how long.

We do know 1/3 of the angels were placed on the earth. Lucifer was their king/governor, under God.

We also know these angel went to war against heaven before the creation of Man. Jesus remarked that He saw Lucifer fall from heaven like lightning.

For this reason He created PHYSICAL MAN, who could (would) be destroyed if he turned like the fallen angels.

You are quite accurate in your understanding of these angels. The only thing you lack is that these angels who existed before the world was, were the spiritual offspring of God. Under Lucifer, 1/3 of the hosts of heaven followed after him and were cast out of heaven into the earth. They became the devil and his angels. Angels are mankind. All who come to earth and receive bodies of flesh and bones and blood existed before they were born on earth as the spirit children of God the Father. When Lucifer and his followers were cast out of heaven into the earth, they denied to ever receive bodies of flesh and bone and blood. Thus they could never procreate with mortals on this earth. The only power they have is to tempt we mortals. They cannot force us to do anything and they cannot procreate with us. They are the ones who fell from their first estate which is our premortal existence. This earth life is our second estate. Who knows but you Carl may have been an angel who ministered to people on earth prior to coming to earth. Latter-day revelation has revealed that the archangel Michael is Adam, aka the ancient of days. It has also been revealed that the angel Gabriel (aka the man Gabriel according to Daniel 9:21) was Noah. Many angels who appear in these latter-days are resurrected immortal mankind with bodies of flesh and bone but no blood. All angels who minister for God on this earth have either come to this earth as mortals or will come to this earth as mortals. Angels are mankind in the premortal, mortal, translated, or post mortal state.

 

[Woodznutz]

In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we believe that an angel is nothing more than an messenger of God and that angels are either premortal spirits of mankind, sometimes mortal mankind, translated mankind, post mortal mankind prior to resurrection, and also resurrected mankind. We do not believe that angels are a separate creature from mankind but are the sons and daughters of God and the literal offspring of God.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Revelation 22:8-9
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Notice the angels that visited Lot and his family in Genesis 19 and how they are often called men throughout the chapter and were eating and were going to sleep in their home.

I believe the angels are divided into three groups.

Lucifer and 'his' angels whose estate and habitation was and still is the earth.

Michael and his angels who defend Israel.

Gabriel who is the 'herald' or messenger, the "eyes that run to and fro" in the earth and report to God.

 

[Woodznutz]

I don't see anything there at all about the earth being made for angels. They existed before the earth was created, and the Job verse implies that they saw God create the earth, but it doesn't say anything about the earth being made for them.

And Jude 6 does not say that! In fact, what is implied is the exact opposite. When it talks about the 'domain' or 'estate' that they left, one of the most common interpretations of that is that they left the heavenly realm. THAT was their first estate, not earth!

Another way that Jude 6 is interpreted goes along with what I was talking about, the Genesis 6 angels who rebelled and mixed with human women. With that interpretation, it basically means they did not keep their proper role, or "principality".... but instead chose to rebel by mating with human women.

I've never seen ANY bible commentary that says that the proper habitation of the angels was earth, it's always the exact opposite.

In fact, I'm starting to wonder if you're just trolling again, as you seem to do on controversial topics.

I don't see the controversy here. Why would the angels be happy when God laid the foundation of the earth billions of (human) years ago. Were they happy that earth was to become a 'planet of death' ruled by bloodthirsty monsters for millions of years? Or could it be that earth was created as a "pleasure garden" (literally "Eden") where they could enjoy physical sensations of pleasure unknown to spirit beings? Could it be that the rebellion caused God to give them the horrible bodies found in the prehistoric fossil record to reflect what they had become?

 

[buttercup]

I don't see the controversy here. Why would the angels be happy when God laid the foundation of the earth billions of (human) years ago. Were they happy that earth was to become a 'planet of death' ruled by bloodthirsty monsters for millions of years? Or could it be that earth was created as a "pleasure garden" (literally "Eden") where they could enjoy physical sensations of pleasure unknown to spirit beings? Could it be that the rebellion caused God to give them the horrible bodies found in the prehistoric fossil record to reflect what they had become?

We're getting into speculation here. I haven't seen any scriptural support for the claim that the earth was created for the angels. The bible DOES say that everything was created for God, for His purposes and His glory. (Colossians 1:16-17, Isaiah 43:7, etc) And of course God gave mankind dominion, which means our job is to take care of the earth and the rest of creation, in the image of God. (which means with selfless love, not exploitation, but I digress)

All I was saying in my previous post was that in the scripture that says the angels did not keep their proper domain, it wasn't talking about earth. Earth was not their first home. Their first home was Heaven, and I really don't see how anyone can deny that or give that a fake news.

 

[frigidweirdo]

In Matthew 24:36

Jesus states:

“As for the exact day and hour, no one knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. For as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man."


In Isaiah 54: God states:

This for me is like the days of Noah.
Just as I swore that the waters of Noah
would never again flood the earth,
so I have sworn that I never will be angry with you
and that I will never rebuke you.
Although the mountains may be shaken
and the hills may totter,
my steadfast love will not depart from you,
and my covenant of peace will never be shaken,
says the Lord who has compassion on you.



Is the coming of the Son of Man a reminder that God's covenant of peace with mankind will never be shaken?


Genesis 9:

God said to Noah and his sons, “As for me, I will establish my covenant with you and your descendants after you, with every living creature along with you—the birds, tame and wild animals, and with all the animals which left the ark. I will establish my covenant with you: never again will all living creatures be cut off by the waters of a flood, nor will the earth be laid waste by a flood again.”

God said, “This will be a sign of the covenant that I establish between me and you and every living creature for all generations.

I will place my rainbow in the clouds and it will be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. When I gather the clouds over the earth, the rainbow will appear in the clouds. I will remember my covenant between me and you and with every living creature of every kind, that water and flood shall never again destroy all flesh. The rainbow will be in the clouds and I will look upon it and remember the eternal covenant between God and every living creature of every kind that is found upon the earth.”

God said to Noah, “This is a sign of the covenant that I am establishing between myself and every creature upon the earth.”

I love the Noah's Ark story, it's got so many holes in it, it's like using a sieve as a cup. Either that or just empty air

 

[onefour1]

I don't see the controversy here. Why would the angels be happy when God laid the foundation of the earth billions of (human) years ago. Were they happy that earth was to become a 'planet of death' ruled by bloodthirsty monsters for millions of years? Or could it be that earth was created as a "pleasure garden" (literally "Eden") where they could enjoy physical sensations of pleasure unknown to spirit beings? Could it be that the rebellion caused God to give them the horrible bodies found in the prehistoric fossil record to reflect what they had become?

In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we believe we were those morning stars and sons of God who shouted for joy because God was creating an earth where we could take on a body just as God has and that we learn good and evil and become more like God. We understood that it was a temporary world and that we would experience evil and also die. But we also understood that Jesus would be our Savior and that we could repent of our sins and find forgiveness through Him. We also understood that we would all be resurrected and become immortal in bodies of flesh and bones just as our Father in Heaven is. We knew Jesus would come and show us the way to salvation and eternal life. Our joy was in the opportunity to become more like our Father in Heaven and our Lord Jesus Christ. This is why Jesus commanded us to:

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

This is why Jesus taught that we can become one even as He is one with the Father.

John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

We rejoiced and shouted for joy to see that we were to be given the opportunity to become like Our Father and our Savior. We rejoiced that we could have an immortal body of flesh and bones and gain eternal joy and happiness just as our Father in Heaven had.

Some of the premortal spirits of God followed after Lucifer and came out in open rebellion against God and were denied this great opportunity and were cast out of heaven. They became the devil and his angels. They were denied the opportunity to ever receive a body of flesh and bones and will remain only spirits for all eternity. We all here on earth who have bodies fought on the side of God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ in the war in heaven. We fought against Lucifer and those who sided with him before they were cast out of heaven and into the earth. This occurred before we came to this earth.

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Notice in verse 11 that they who fought against Satan and his angels in the war in heaven came to earth and needed the blood of the Lamb to overcome him and that they need a testimony of God and were subject to death. It was we who have come this earth and received bodies that fought against Lucifer and his angels in the war in heaven. We were the angels of the archangel Michael. This mortal earth life is only temporary but it is so critical to our eternal progession that we rejoiced at the chance to come and progress. Again we believe that we were those morning stars and sons of God who shouted for joy.

Before Lucifer rebelled against God and started a war in heaven, he was know as a morning star or son of the morning.

Isaiah 14:12-17
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Notice that Lucifer is a man. All angels are also mankind. Notice that in Daniel 9:21 that Daniel recognizes that the angel Gabriel is a man.

Daniel 9:21
21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

Also the angels of Genesis 19 who visited Lot and his family are often referred to as men in that chapter. Basically we believe that angels are either the premortal spirits of man or mortal mankind or translated man or post mortal spirits of man or post mortal resurrected man. An angel is nothing more than a messenger of God and this calling is filled by mankind in their various states of existence.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision

He took the FORM of a man, but he looked nothing like a man you've ever seen

Daniel looked up and before him was “a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphas around his waist. His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude” (Daniel 10: 5–6).

 

[Woodznutz]

We're getting into speculation here. I haven't seen any scriptural support for the claim that the earth was created for the angels. The bible DOES say that everything was created for God, for His purposes and His glory. (Colossians 1:16-17, Isaiah 43:7, etc) And of course God gave mankind dominion, which means our job is to take care of the earth and the rest of creation, in the image of God. (which means with selfless love, not exploitation, but I digress)

All I was saying in my previous post was that in the scripture that says the angels did not keep their proper domain, it wasn't talking about earth. Earth was not their first home. Their first home was Heaven, and I really don't see how anyone can deny that or give that a fake news.

I major in Bible study with a minor in speculation. God hides things and it's up to us to 'search it out'. I believe God is going to restore the earth to its original Edenlike condition sans the dinosaurs.

 

[Woodznutz]

In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we believe we were those morning stars and sons of God who shouted for joy because God was creating an earth where we could take on a body just as God has and that we learn good and evil and become more like God. We understood that it was a temporary world and that we would experience evil and also die. But we also understood that Jesus would be our Savior and that we could repent of our sins and find forgiveness through Him. We also understood that we would all be resurrected and become immortal in bodies of flesh and bones just as our Father in Heaven is. We knew Jesus would come and show us the way to salvation and eternal life. Our joy was in the opportunity to become more like our Father in Heaven and our Lord Jesus Christ. This is why Jesus commanded us to:

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

This is why Jesus taught that we can become one even as He is one with the Father.

John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

We rejoiced and shouted for joy to see that we were to be given the opportunity to become like Our Father and our Savior. We rejoiced that we could have an immortal body of flesh and bones and gain eternal joy and happiness just as our Father in Heaven had.

Some of the premortal spirits of God followed after Lucifer and came out in open rebellion against God and were denied this great opportunity and were cast out of heaven. They became the devil and his angels. They were denied the opportunity to ever receive a body of flesh and bones and will remain only spirits for all eternity. We all here on earth who have bodies fought on the side of God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ in the war in heaven. We fought against Lucifer and those who sided with him before they were cast out of heaven and into the earth. This occurred before we came to this earth.

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Notice in verse 11 that they who fought against Satan and his angels in the war in heaven came to earth and needed the blood of the Lamb to overcome him and that they need a testimony of God and were subject to death. It was we who have come this earth and received bodies that fought against Lucifer and his angels in the war in heaven. We were the angels of the archangel Michael. This mortal earth life is only temporary but it is so critical to our eternal progession that we rejoiced at the chance to come and progress. Again we believe that we were those morning stars and sons of God who shouted for joy.

Before Lucifer rebelled against God and started a war in heaven, he was know as a morning star or son of the morning.

Isaiah 14:12-17
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Notice that Lucifer is a man. All angels are also mankind. Notice that in Daniel 9:21 that Daniel recognizes that the angel Gabriel is a man.

Daniel 9:21
21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

Also the angels of Genesis 19 who visited Lot and his family are often referred to as men in that chapter. Basically we believe that angels are either the premortal spirits of man or mortal mankind or translated man or post mortal spirits of man or post mortal resurrected man. An angel is nothing more than a messenger of God and this calling is filled by mankind in their various states of existence.

Why would God put his loyal angels through this?

 

[Woodznutz]

I love the Noah's Ark story, it's got so many holes in it, it's like using a sieve as a cup. Either that or just empty air

Noah's ark; one of the best, and least understood, stories in the Bible.

Most people: "I don't care what the Bible says, the ark was a ship."

 

[onefour1]

He took the FORM of a man, but he looked nothing like a man you've ever seen

Daniel looked up and before him was “a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphas around his waist. His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude” (Daniel 10: 5–6).

You are right that he didn't look like a mortal man. God and his angels can appear as beings of light. They are fully mankind but are not fallen or mortal and exude light from their beings. That is why they are described as above in Daniel. But they are very much mankind.

 

[onefour1]

Why would God put his loyal angels through this?

If "this" refers to coming to earth and taking on a mortal body of flesh and bones and going through mortality and learning good and evil, the answer is so that they can become more like God himself. Once Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit, God said the following:

Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

By experiencing good and evil we (the angels) were able to advance and become more like God. We also gain a body of flesh and bones in this life and are promised to gain resurrection just as our Lord and Savior was resurrected after death. Jesus now enjoys living in an immortal body of flesh and bones forever and ever. This is part of our progression and I believe the Father also has an immortal body of flesh and bones. Ours spirits gain greater joy and happiness by having a bodily temple to dwell in.

If "this" refers to coming to earth and delivering messages to we mortals, angels do this because they are serving both God and we, their fellow brethren and brothers and sister so as to guide us in paths of righteousness to also become more like God. We are not only to help each other in this life but also in the eternities.

Eventually we will all look back on this temporary mortal existence as a learning ground and a progression of our immortal souls. Not only did God want for us to progress and become more like himself but we also want to become like him and voluntarily chose to come to this world and experience mortality.

 

[buttercup]

I major in Bible study with a minor in speculation. God hides things and it's up to us to 'search it out'. I believe God is going to restore the earth to its original Edenlike condition sans the dinosaurs.

Oh don't get me wrong. I absolutely believe God is going to restore the earth to Edenlike conditions, and that is not speculation, that is biblical. (Basically Heaven and earth will be one) I was only saying that the bible doesn't say the earth was created for angels... so that's what I was talking about when I used the word speculation.

 

[onefour1]

You are right that he didn't look like a mortal man. God and his angels can appear as beings of light. They are fully mankind but are not fallen or mortal and exude light from their beings. That is why they are described as above in Daniel. But they are very much mankind.

This is also known as appearing in their glory.

 

[onefour1]

Oh don't get me wrong. I absolutely believe God is going to restore the earth to Edenlike conditions, and that is not speculation, that is biblical. (Basically Heaven and earth will be one) I was only saying that the bible doesn't say the earth was created for angels... so that's what I was talking about when I used the word speculation.

I believe that during Christ's millennial reign the earth will again become like Eden. After that the earth will become a celestial sphere and become part of the kingdom of Heaven. And the meek shall inherit the earth.

 

[skye]

View attachment 1045085

Double rainbow, nice!

 

[Woodznutz]

Oh don't get me wrong. I absolutely believe God is going to restore the earth to Edenlike conditions, and that is not speculation, that is biblical. (Basically Heaven and earth will be one) I was only saying that the bible doesn't say the earth was created for angels... so that's what I was talking about when I used the word speculation.

I love to speculate on Bible stuff. Some of it I actually believe.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Noah's ark; one of the best, and least understood, stories in the Bible.

Most people: "I don't care what the Bible says, the ark was a ship."

Noah's Ark - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In notes at the bottom

1. The word "ark" in modern English comes from Old English aerca, meaning a chest or box. (See Cresswell 2010, p.22) The Hebrew word for the vessel, teva, occurs twice in the Torah, in the flood narrative (Book of Genesis 6–9) and in the Book of Exodus, where it refers to the basket in which Jochebed places the infant Moses. (The word for the Ark of the Covenant, aron, is quite different.) The Ark is built to save Noah, his family, and representatives of all animals from a divinely-sent flood intended to wipe out all life, and in both cases, the teva has a connection with salvation from waters. (See Levenson 2014, p.21)

So you have the word teva and you have the word aron, both of which have been translated to mean "ark" in English. Teva means something of "salvation from waters", there's nothing there to suggest it wasn't a ship.

 

[Woodznutz]

Noah's Ark - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In notes at the bottom

1. The word "ark" in modern English comes from Old English aerca, meaning a chest or box. (See Cresswell 2010, p.22) The Hebrew word for the vessel, teva, occurs twice in the Torah, in the flood narrative (Book of Genesis 6–9) and in the Book of Exodus, where it refers to the basket in which Jochebed places the infant Moses. (The word for the Ark of the Covenant, aron, is quite different.) The Ark is built to save Noah, his family, and representatives of all animals from a divinely-sent flood intended to wipe out all life, and in both cases, the teva has a connection with salvation from waters. (See Levenson 2014, p.21)

So you have the word teva and you have the word aron, both of which have been translated to mean "ark" in English. Teva means something of "salvation from waters", there's nothing there to suggest it wasn't a ship.

A ship has two important features, actually requirements.

1. It must have a means of propulsion, whether sails or engines.
2.It must have a means of steering in order to "ship" or navigate.

The ark had neither. In nautical terms it could be called a "barge", but not a ship. Note that no terms given to Noah were ship building terms. They were however familiar terms for constructing a building. The ark was a floating hotel for animals.

 

[frigidweirdo]

A ship has two important features, actually requirements.

1. It must have a means of propulsion, whether sails or engines.
2.It must have a means of steering in order to "ship" or navigate.

The ark had neither. In nautical terms it could be called a "barge", but not a ship. Note that no terms given to Noah were ship building terms. They were however familiar terms for constructing a building. The ark was a floating hotel for animals.

Who cares? It was whatever you want to call it while being as pedantic as possible.