How To Define "Scientist"?

PoliticalChic

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Some of our Left-leaning friends love to claim that their side is the one allied with science, and imply that such cannot be wrong.
And the corollary…the Right is based on ignorance and anti-science. After all, only “6% of scientists are Republicans.

Of course, such a view ascribes a certain honor and repute to the word ‘scientists’ and neglects to remember that scientists are, in reality, merely other folks.

Scientists have families to feed, and face the same temptation to cheat as anybody else.
Our Left-leaning colleagues are simply naïve.
Either that, or lacking in self-esteem, and imagine that their definition of scientist somehow applies to themselves. Pathetic.

Which brings me to this expose from Nature Magazine.

1. Research programmes of the European Commission (EC) have notoriously cumbersome procedures and rigid control mechanisms that have apparently not prevented a criminal syndicate from conducting a brazen fraud that has siphoned off millions in EC grant funds.

2. Italian authorities and the European Anti-Fraud Office (OLAF) in Brussels, Belgium, have confirmed that they are prosecuting members of a large network accused of pocketing more than €50 million (US$72 million) in EC grants for fake research projects.

3. The EC has terminated four collaborative projects in information technology, and excluded more than 30 grant-winners from participation in around 20 ongoing projects. Investigations are still under way in the United Kingdom, France, Greece, Austria, Sweden, Slovenia and Poland.

4. The fraud has been conducted in a "highly sophisticated manner, resembling money laundering", by means of a cross-border network of fictitious companies and subcontractors… having claimed inflated costs, or expenses for non-existent research activities and services, he says.

5. Concerned about the burden of Brussels bureaucracy, several thousand European scientists signed a petition this year (Trust Researchers - A declaration to the attention of the European Council and Parliament) calling for the framework to be "based on mutual trust and responsible partnering". Some now fear that the fraud could hamper efforts to cut red tape. Europe tackles huge fraud : Nature News

Rumor has it that only 6% of the crooks were Republicans…..

And….

“The strange part of this story is that it offers no details about what specific areas of government research funding were pilfered, or what "results" may have come of the fraudulent research projects they supported. Could it have been in the climate science domain, where the most government research money seems to be sloshing around? We know that there has been organized fraud in the European carbon trading market. Trading had to be halted back in January when it was discovered that millions of dollars of carbon allowances had been stolen and cashed on the spot market, so this wouldn't be the first time that organized crime had fixed on the climate circus as an easy mark. And one of the overlooked e-mails in the "Climategate" scandal involving the East Anglia University Climate Research Unit two years ago was a message from one of the scientists suggesting that a particular grant be routed through a Russian organization as a means of tax evasion.” Doing Advance Work: EU gave $72 million taxpayer dollars for fake 'science' research grants-Nature Magazine

'Scientists' are....???

And….

And one of the overlooked e-mails in the “Climategate” scandal involving the East Anglia University Climate Research Unit two years ago was a message from one of the scientists suggesting that a particular grant be routed through a Russian organization as a means of tax evasion.
Seems like this story needs some follow up. What

So, so some 'scientists' cheat?

And what is it they cheat about?
 
R

rdean

Guest
Some of our Left-leaning friends love to claim that their side is the one allied with science, and imply that such cannot be wrong.
And the corollary…the Right is based on ignorance and anti-science. After all, only “6% of scientists are Republicans.

Of course, such a view ascribes a certain honor and repute to the word ‘scientists’ and neglects to remember that scientists are, in reality, merely other folks.

Scientists have families to feed, and face the same temptation to cheat as anybody else.
Our Left-leaning colleagues are simply naïve.
Either that, or lacking in self-esteem, and imagine that their definition of scientist somehow applies to themselves. Pathetic.

Which brings me to this expose from Nature Magazine.

1. Research programmes of the European Commission (EC) have notoriously cumbersome procedures and rigid control mechanisms that have apparently not prevented a criminal syndicate from conducting a brazen fraud that has siphoned off millions in EC grant funds.

2. Italian authorities and the European Anti-Fraud Office (OLAF) in Brussels, Belgium, have confirmed that they are prosecuting members of a large network accused of pocketing more than €50 million (US$72 million) in EC grants for fake research projects.

3. The EC has terminated four collaborative projects in information technology, and excluded more than 30 grant-winners from participation in around 20 ongoing projects. Investigations are still under way in the United Kingdom, France, Greece, Austria, Sweden, Slovenia and Poland.

4. The fraud has been conducted in a "highly sophisticated manner, resembling money laundering", by means of a cross-border network of fictitious companies and subcontractors… having claimed inflated costs, or expenses for non-existent research activities and services, he says.

5. Concerned about the burden of Brussels bureaucracy, several thousand European scientists signed a petition this year (Trust Researchers - A declaration to the attention of the European Council and Parliament) calling for the framework to be "based on mutual trust and responsible partnering". Some now fear that the fraud could hamper efforts to cut red tape. Europe tackles huge fraud : Nature News

Rumor has it that only 6% of the crooks were Republicans…..

And….

“The strange part of this story is that it offers no details about what specific areas of government research funding were pilfered, or what "results" may have come of the fraudulent research projects they supported. Could it have been in the climate science domain, where the most government research money seems to be sloshing around? We know that there has been organized fraud in the European carbon trading market. Trading had to be halted back in January when it was discovered that millions of dollars of carbon allowances had been stolen and cashed on the spot market, so this wouldn't be the first time that organized crime had fixed on the climate circus as an easy mark. And one of the overlooked e-mails in the "Climategate" scandal involving the East Anglia University Climate Research Unit two years ago was a message from one of the scientists suggesting that a particular grant be routed through a Russian organization as a means of tax evasion.” Doing Advance Work: EU gave $72 million taxpayer dollars for fake 'science' research grants-Nature Magazine

'Scientists' are....???

And….

And one of the overlooked e-mails in the “Climategate” scandal involving the East Anglia University Climate Research Unit two years ago was a message from one of the scientists suggesting that a particular grant be routed through a Russian organization as a means of tax evasion.
Seems like this story needs some follow up. What

So, so some 'scientists' cheat?

And what is it they cheat about?
Clearly this is about "businessmen" and NOT scientists. Hilarious.

Especially because Republicans trust businessmen above all others.
 

Old Rocks

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PC is just proving that the present GOP has an anti-science bias that will blow back into the faces of the willfully ignorant.

PC is just another fool that seems to think that if reality doesn't agree with your ideology, you can just safely ignore reality. A real fool's course for the nation.
 
OP
PoliticalChic

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PC is just proving that the present GOP has an anti-science bias that will blow back into the faces of the willfully ignorant.

PC is just another fool that seems to think that if reality doesn't agree with your ideology, you can just safely ignore reality. A real fool's course for the nation.
"Our Left-leaning colleagues are simply naïve.
Either that, or lacking in self-esteem, and imagine that their definition of scientist somehow applies to themselves. Pathetic."


Is 'Pathetic' too long to fit on your mechanic uniform?
 
OP
PoliticalChic

PoliticalChic

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Some of our Left-leaning friends love to claim that their side is the one allied with science, and imply that such cannot be wrong.
And the corollary…the Right is based on ignorance and anti-science. After all, only “6% of scientists are Republicans.

Of course, such a view ascribes a certain honor and repute to the word ‘scientists’ and neglects to remember that scientists are, in reality, merely other folks.

Scientists have families to feed, and face the same temptation to cheat as anybody else.
Our Left-leaning colleagues are simply naïve.
Either that, or lacking in self-esteem, and imagine that their definition of scientist somehow applies to themselves. Pathetic.

Which brings me to this expose from Nature Magazine.

1. Research programmes of the European Commission (EC) have notoriously cumbersome procedures and rigid control mechanisms that have apparently not prevented a criminal syndicate from conducting a brazen fraud that has siphoned off millions in EC grant funds.

2. Italian authorities and the European Anti-Fraud Office (OLAF) in Brussels, Belgium, have confirmed that they are prosecuting members of a large network accused of pocketing more than €50 million (US$72 million) in EC grants for fake research projects.

3. The EC has terminated four collaborative projects in information technology, and excluded more than 30 grant-winners from participation in around 20 ongoing projects. Investigations are still under way in the United Kingdom, France, Greece, Austria, Sweden, Slovenia and Poland.

4. The fraud has been conducted in a "highly sophisticated manner, resembling money laundering", by means of a cross-border network of fictitious companies and subcontractors… having claimed inflated costs, or expenses for non-existent research activities and services, he says.

5. Concerned about the burden of Brussels bureaucracy, several thousand European scientists signed a petition this year (Trust Researchers - A declaration to the attention of the European Council and Parliament) calling for the framework to be "based on mutual trust and responsible partnering". Some now fear that the fraud could hamper efforts to cut red tape. Europe tackles huge fraud : Nature News

Rumor has it that only 6% of the crooks were Republicans…..

And….

“The strange part of this story is that it offers no details about what specific areas of government research funding were pilfered, or what "results" may have come of the fraudulent research projects they supported. Could it have been in the climate science domain, where the most government research money seems to be sloshing around? We know that there has been organized fraud in the European carbon trading market. Trading had to be halted back in January when it was discovered that millions of dollars of carbon allowances had been stolen and cashed on the spot market, so this wouldn't be the first time that organized crime had fixed on the climate circus as an easy mark. And one of the overlooked e-mails in the "Climategate" scandal involving the East Anglia University Climate Research Unit two years ago was a message from one of the scientists suggesting that a particular grant be routed through a Russian organization as a means of tax evasion.” Doing Advance Work: EU gave $72 million taxpayer dollars for fake 'science' research grants-Nature Magazine

'Scientists' are....???

And….

And one of the overlooked e-mails in the “Climategate” scandal involving the East Anglia University Climate Research Unit two years ago was a message from one of the scientists suggesting that a particular grant be routed through a Russian organization as a means of tax evasion.
Seems like this story needs some follow up. What

So, so some 'scientists' cheat?

And what is it they cheat about?
Clearly this is about "businessmen" and NOT scientists. Hilarious.

Especially because Republicans trust businessmen above all others.
So...'scientist' and businessman are mutually exclusive?


In your case, I see the point...I understand that the Unemployment office named you 'unemployee of the month.'
 

Photonic

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Some of our Left-leaning friends love to claim that their side is the one allied with science, and imply that such cannot be wrong.
And the corollary…the Right is based on ignorance and anti-science. After all, only “6% of scientists are Republicans.

Of course, such a view ascribes a certain honor and repute to the word ‘scientists’ and neglects to remember that scientists are, in reality, merely other folks.

Scientists have families to feed, and face the same temptation to cheat as anybody else.
Our Left-leaning colleagues are simply naïve.
Either that, or lacking in self-esteem, and imagine that their definition of scientist somehow applies to themselves. Pathetic.

Which brings me to this expose from Nature Magazine.

1. Research programmes of the European Commission (EC) have notoriously cumbersome procedures and rigid control mechanisms that have apparently not prevented a criminal syndicate from conducting a brazen fraud that has siphoned off millions in EC grant funds.

2. Italian authorities and the European Anti-Fraud Office (OLAF) in Brussels, Belgium, have confirmed that they are prosecuting members of a large network accused of pocketing more than €50 million (US$72 million) in EC grants for fake research projects.

3. The EC has terminated four collaborative projects in information technology, and excluded more than 30 grant-winners from participation in around 20 ongoing projects. Investigations are still under way in the United Kingdom, France, Greece, Austria, Sweden, Slovenia and Poland.

4. The fraud has been conducted in a "highly sophisticated manner, resembling money laundering", by means of a cross-border network of fictitious companies and subcontractors… having claimed inflated costs, or expenses for non-existent research activities and services, he says.

5. Concerned about the burden of Brussels bureaucracy, several thousand European scientists signed a petition this year (Trust Researchers - A declaration to the attention of the European Council and Parliament) calling for the framework to be "based on mutual trust and responsible partnering". Some now fear that the fraud could hamper efforts to cut red tape. Europe tackles huge fraud : Nature News

Rumor has it that only 6% of the crooks were Republicans…..

And….

“The strange part of this story is that it offers no details about what specific areas of government research funding were pilfered, or what "results" may have come of the fraudulent research projects they supported. Could it have been in the climate science domain, where the most government research money seems to be sloshing around? We know that there has been organized fraud in the European carbon trading market. Trading had to be halted back in January when it was discovered that millions of dollars of carbon allowances had been stolen and cashed on the spot market, so this wouldn't be the first time that organized crime had fixed on the climate circus as an easy mark. And one of the overlooked e-mails in the "Climategate" scandal involving the East Anglia University Climate Research Unit two years ago was a message from one of the scientists suggesting that a particular grant be routed through a Russian organization as a means of tax evasion.” Doing Advance Work: EU gave $72 million taxpayer dollars for fake 'science' research grants-Nature Magazine

'Scientists' are....???

And….

And one of the overlooked e-mails in the “Climategate” scandal involving the East Anglia University Climate Research Unit two years ago was a message from one of the scientists suggesting that a particular grant be routed through a Russian organization as a means of tax evasion.
Seems like this story needs some follow up. What

So, so some 'scientists' cheat?

And what is it they cheat about?
Clearly this is about "businessmen" and NOT scientists. Hilarious.

Especially because Republicans trust businessmen above all others.
So...'scientist' and businessman are mutually exclusive?


In your case, I see the point...I understand that the Unemployment office named you 'unemployee of the month.'
So instead of admitting you're wrong (Obviously impossible, right?), you've debased yourself and your entire political party by claiming that scientists aren't really scientists.

How low can you go.
 
OP
PoliticalChic

PoliticalChic

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Clearly this is about "businessmen" and NOT scientists. Hilarious.

Especially because Republicans trust businessmen above all others.
So...'scientist' and businessman are mutually exclusive?


In your case, I see the point...I understand that the Unemployment office named you 'unemployee of the month.'
So instead of admitting you're wrong (Obviously impossible, right?), you've debased yourself and your entire political party by claiming that scientists aren't really scientists.

How low can you go.
Welcome to the board.

Unfortunately, you've begun your career here with a truly stupid post.

1. Since the OP suggests that 'scientists' is a term misused if one wishes to suggest that such folks are above lying or cheating...and said indiviuals have the same motivations as the population in general... my position is hardly in error.

2. Now, if you are one of the dolts who chooses to claim that 'scientists' are above it all, and their word is gospel...

...then, I'd like to see you try to defend that position.

Therefore, I look forward to you "admitting you're wrong ."

3. Now, as far as 'debasing' myself, it stresses credulity to believe that having an opinion different from another would in any way lower my moral character...which is the meaning of 'debase.' Did you know that?
Education is a wonderful thing.

...or have you simply attempted to use a word that you cannot define?

And, on this basis as well, I look forward to you "admitting you're wrong ."


4. And- one more?
If my 'political party' is 'debased' in believing that there are many 'scientists' who cheat and lie, could you identify the 'political party' that has the obverse doctrine?

No?

Well, then...three strikes and you're out.
 
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bobcollum

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[snip]

So, so some 'scientists' cheat?

And what is it they cheat about?
It's all in the scientific method, repeated testing yielding and confirming expected results. Do some scientists lie for personal gain? I'm sure there are a few that do, just like the people in every other facet of life that are only out for themselves. Science isn't a matter of belief...if it's not factually represented it's not science, it's theory at best. If someone can't understand this than they probably shouldn't talk about science, and others should disregard them.

I generally wouldn't knock science or the people that propel it forward. I'm not some kind of AGW fanatic, but I don't believe it's completely off-base either. Sometimes the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I am however all for cleaning up the messes we make, some of it is absolutely revolting.
 
R

rdean

Guest
Clearly this is about "businessmen" and NOT scientists. Hilarious.

Especially because Republicans trust businessmen above all others.
So...'scientist' and businessman are mutually exclusive?


In your case, I see the point...I understand that the Unemployment office named you 'unemployee of the month.'
So instead of admitting you're wrong (Obviously impossible, right?), you've debased yourself and your entire political party by claiming that scientists aren't really scientists.

How low can you go.
Right wingers on this site think scientists are dirty liars with a "Marxist" agenda who sit on their butts collecting undeserved government stipends.

They really get upset when you point to the PEW Research that shows only a measly 6% of scientists are Republican. It's possible that out of those 6% are many that are just cut off from the world and don't realize what being Republican means. I suspect the 6% figure is vastly overstated.
 

Quantum Windbag

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Some of our Left-leaning friends love to claim that their side is the one allied with science, and imply that such cannot be wrong.
And the corollary…the Right is based on ignorance and anti-science. After all, only “6% of scientists are Republicans.

Of course, such a view ascribes a certain honor and repute to the word ‘scientists’ and neglects to remember that scientists are, in reality, merely other folks.

Scientists have families to feed, and face the same temptation to cheat as anybody else.
Our Left-leaning colleagues are simply naïve.
Either that, or lacking in self-esteem, and imagine that their definition of scientist somehow applies to themselves. Pathetic.

Which brings me to this expose from Nature Magazine.

1. Research programmes of the European Commission (EC) have notoriously cumbersome procedures and rigid control mechanisms that have apparently not prevented a criminal syndicate from conducting a brazen fraud that has siphoned off millions in EC grant funds.

2. Italian authorities and the European Anti-Fraud Office (OLAF) in Brussels, Belgium, have confirmed that they are prosecuting members of a large network accused of pocketing more than €50 million (US$72 million) in EC grants for fake research projects.

3. The EC has terminated four collaborative projects in information technology, and excluded more than 30 grant-winners from participation in around 20 ongoing projects. Investigations are still under way in the United Kingdom, France, Greece, Austria, Sweden, Slovenia and Poland.

4. The fraud has been conducted in a "highly sophisticated manner, resembling money laundering", by means of a cross-border network of fictitious companies and subcontractors… having claimed inflated costs, or expenses for non-existent research activities and services, he says.

5. Concerned about the burden of Brussels bureaucracy, several thousand European scientists signed a petition this year (Trust Researchers - A declaration to the attention of the European Council and Parliament) calling for the framework to be "based on mutual trust and responsible partnering". Some now fear that the fraud could hamper efforts to cut red tape. Europe tackles huge fraud : Nature News

Rumor has it that only 6% of the crooks were Republicans…..

And….

“The strange part of this story is that it offers no details about what specific areas of government research funding were pilfered, or what "results" may have come of the fraudulent research projects they supported. Could it have been in the climate science domain, where the most government research money seems to be sloshing around? We know that there has been organized fraud in the European carbon trading market. Trading had to be halted back in January when it was discovered that millions of dollars of carbon allowances had been stolen and cashed on the spot market, so this wouldn't be the first time that organized crime had fixed on the climate circus as an easy mark. And one of the overlooked e-mails in the "Climategate" scandal involving the East Anglia University Climate Research Unit two years ago was a message from one of the scientists suggesting that a particular grant be routed through a Russian organization as a means of tax evasion.” Doing Advance Work: EU gave $72 million taxpayer dollars for fake 'science' research grants-Nature Magazine

'Scientists' are....???

And….

And one of the overlooked e-mails in the “Climategate” scandal involving the East Anglia University Climate Research Unit two years ago was a message from one of the scientists suggesting that a particular grant be routed through a Russian organization as a means of tax evasion.
Seems like this story needs some follow up. What

So, so some 'scientists' cheat?

And what is it they cheat about?
Clearly this is about "businessmen" and NOT scientists. Hilarious.

Especially because Republicans trust businessmen above all others.
Are you trying to claim scientists are not human?
 

Quantum Windbag

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PC is just proving that the present GOP has an anti-science bias that will blow back into the faces of the willfully ignorant.

PC is just another fool that seems to think that if reality doesn't agree with your ideology, you can just safely ignore reality. A real fool's course for the nation.
You are actually proving that facts do not matter to you, but we already knew that.
 

Quantum Windbag

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[snip]

So, so some 'scientists' cheat?

And what is it they cheat about?
It's all in the scientific method, repeated testing yielding and confirming expected results. Do some scientists lie for personal gain? I'm sure there are a few that do, just like the people in every other facet of life that are only out for themselves. Science isn't a matter of belief...if it's not factually represented it's not science, it's theory at best. If someone can't understand this than they probably shouldn't talk about science, and others should disregard them.

I generally wouldn't knock science or the people that propel it forward. I'm not some kind of AGW fanatic, but I don't believe it's completely off-base either. Sometimes the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I am however all for cleaning up the messes we make, some of it is absolutely revolting.
Science is a matter of belief. The difference is scientists base their beliefs on experience and facts, not platitudes.

CERN recently announced that they had almost eliminated the possibility of the existence of the Higgs bosun. Given the fact that the Standard Model of physics is based on the Higgs bosun, no informed person would ever state that science is not based on belief,
 

Quantum Windbag

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So...'scientist' and businessman are mutually exclusive?


In your case, I see the point...I understand that the Unemployment office named you 'unemployee of the month.'
So instead of admitting you're wrong (Obviously impossible, right?), you've debased yourself and your entire political party by claiming that scientists aren't really scientists.

How low can you go.
Right wingers on this site think scientists are dirty liars with a "Marxist" agenda who sit on their butts collecting undeserved government stipends.

They really get upset when you point to the PEW Research that shows only a measly 6% of scientists are Republican. It's possible that out of those 6% are many that are just cut off from the world and don't realize what being Republican means. I suspect the 6% figure is vastly overstated.
I will not speak for anyone else, but I understand scientists are human, They make mistakes, lie, cheat, steal, and even kill. They are greedy, and will lie for money.

Gee, look at this, a scientific, peer reviewed, study that shows soda is not making kids fat. And, yes, the guy who wrote it is a "real" scientist, and has actually been published before, yet he published a study that is complete drivel(in my opinion) and is obviously bought and paid for by corporate interests.

Study: Soda Does Not Make Kids Fat - ABC News
 

bobcollum

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[snip]

So, so some 'scientists' cheat?

And what is it they cheat about?
It's all in the scientific method, repeated testing yielding and confirming expected results. Do some scientists lie for personal gain? I'm sure there are a few that do, just like the people in every other facet of life that are only out for themselves. Science isn't a matter of belief...if it's not factually represented it's not science, it's theory at best. If someone can't understand this than they probably shouldn't talk about science, and others should disregard them.

I generally wouldn't knock science or the people that propel it forward. I'm not some kind of AGW fanatic, but I don't believe it's completely off-base either. Sometimes the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I am however all for cleaning up the messes we make, some of it is absolutely revolting.
Science is a matter of belief. The difference is scientists base their beliefs on experience and facts, not platitudes.

CERN recently announced that they had almost eliminated the possibility of the existence of the Higgs bosun. Given the fact that the Standard Model of physics is based on the Higgs bosun, no informed person would ever state that science is not based on belief,
But is a fact debatable? If it isn't I don't see how belief can enter the equation. I've held that the standard model is still, for all the promising confirmations of various aspects of it over the years, just a theory. It's quite possible that we've been chasing the wrong idea all these years.
 

Quantum Windbag

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It's all in the scientific method, repeated testing yielding and confirming expected results. Do some scientists lie for personal gain? I'm sure there are a few that do, just like the people in every other facet of life that are only out for themselves. Science isn't a matter of belief...if it's not factually represented it's not science, it's theory at best. If someone can't understand this than they probably shouldn't talk about science, and others should disregard them.

I generally wouldn't knock science or the people that propel it forward. I'm not some kind of AGW fanatic, but I don't believe it's completely off-base either. Sometimes the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I am however all for cleaning up the messes we make, some of it is absolutely revolting.
Science is a matter of belief. The difference is scientists base their beliefs on experience and facts, not platitudes.

CERN recently announced that they had almost eliminated the possibility of the existence of the Higgs bosun. Given the fact that the Standard Model of physics is based on the Higgs bosun, no informed person would ever state that science is not based on belief,
But is a fact debatable? If it isn't I don't see how belief can enter the equation. I've held that the standard model is still, for all the promising confirmations of various aspects of it over the years, just a theory. It's quite possible that we've been chasing the wrong idea all these years.
We are not discussing facts, we are discussing science and how it works. Science relies on belief, and questions facts.
 

Photonic

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Science is a matter of belief. The difference is scientists base their beliefs on experience and facts, not platitudes.

CERN recently announced that they had almost eliminated the possibility of the existence of the Higgs bosun. Given the fact that the Standard Model of physics is based on the Higgs bosun, no informed person would ever state that science is not based on belief,
But is a fact debatable? If it isn't I don't see how belief can enter the equation. I've held that the standard model is still, for all the promising confirmations of various aspects of it over the years, just a theory. It's quite possible that we've been chasing the wrong idea all these years.
We are not discussing facts, we are discussing science and how it works. Science relies on belief, and questions facts.
I'm sorry but that isn't how science works.

It's based on Observation and repeat-ability. One who does anything else is no longer being a scientist.
 

Photonic

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So...'scientist' and businessman are mutually exclusive?


In your case, I see the point...I understand that the Unemployment office named you 'unemployee of the month.'
So instead of admitting you're wrong (Obviously impossible, right?), you've debased yourself and your entire political party by claiming that scientists aren't really scientists.

How low can you go.
Welcome to the board.

Unfortunately, you've begun your career here with a truly stupid post.

1. Since the OP suggests that 'scientists' is a term misused if one wishes to suggest that such folks are above lying or cheating...and said indiviuals have the same motivations as the population in general... my position is hardly in error.

2. Now, if you are one of the dolts who chooses to claim that 'scientists' are above it all, and their word is gospel...

...then, I'd like to see you try to defend that position.

Therefore, I look forward to you "admitting you're wrong ."

3. Now, as far as 'debasing' myself, it stresses credulity to believe that having an opinion different from another would in any way lower my moral character...which is the meaning of 'debase.' Did you know that?
Education is a wonderful thing.

...or have you simply attempted to use a word that you cannot define?

And, on this basis as well, I look forward to you "admitting you're wrong ."


4. And- one more?
If my 'political party' is 'debased' in believing that there are many 'scientists' who cheat and lie, could you identify the 'political party' that has the obverse doctrine?

No?

Well, then...three strikes and you're out.
I should ignore you on the name-calling alone. Responding to a supposedly stupid post with insane drivel like the introductory statement in your response is a good way to begin, no?

I'll give you a pass on that, because you actually bring up a good point. Scientists are not infallible, I sure as hell am not. In matters of science however, no ideals should come first to the science itself, ever. To put forth ones own personal bias over that of the truth is as close as you can come to scientific blasphemy. One ceases to be a scientist by definition at that point.

I won't defend human fallacy. I will defend science itself though, something I am very justified in doing.

Also, if your first post didn't lower your moral character, insulting me instead of reasoning certainly did!
 
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Quantum Windbag

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But is a fact debatable? If it isn't I don't see how belief can enter the equation. I've held that the standard model is still, for all the promising confirmations of various aspects of it over the years, just a theory. It's quite possible that we've been chasing the wrong idea all these years.
We are not discussing facts, we are discussing science and how it works. Science relies on belief, and questions facts.
I'm sorry but that isn't how science works.

It's based on Observation and repeat-ability. One who does anything else is no longer being a scientist.
Is it?

What repeatability do we have to support the Big Bang Theory? Evolution? Astrophysics?

I love it when people who barely understand grade school science try to educate me about how science works.
 
R

rdean

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Some of our Left-leaning friends love to claim that their side is the one allied with science, and imply that such cannot be wrong.
And the corollary…the Right is based on ignorance and anti-science. After all, only “6% of scientists are Republicans.

Of course, such a view ascribes a certain honor and repute to the word ‘scientists’ and neglects to remember that scientists are, in reality, merely other folks.

Scientists have families to feed, and face the same temptation to cheat as anybody else.
Our Left-leaning colleagues are simply naïve.
Either that, or lacking in self-esteem, and imagine that their definition of scientist somehow applies to themselves. Pathetic.

Which brings me to this expose from Nature Magazine.

1. Research programmes of the European Commission (EC) have notoriously cumbersome procedures and rigid control mechanisms that have apparently not prevented a criminal syndicate from conducting a brazen fraud that has siphoned off millions in EC grant funds.

2. Italian authorities and the European Anti-Fraud Office (OLAF) in Brussels, Belgium, have confirmed that they are prosecuting members of a large network accused of pocketing more than €50 million (US$72 million) in EC grants for fake research projects.

3. The EC has terminated four collaborative projects in information technology, and excluded more than 30 grant-winners from participation in around 20 ongoing projects. Investigations are still under way in the United Kingdom, France, Greece, Austria, Sweden, Slovenia and Poland.

4. The fraud has been conducted in a "highly sophisticated manner, resembling money laundering", by means of a cross-border network of fictitious companies and subcontractors… having claimed inflated costs, or expenses for non-existent research activities and services, he says.

5. Concerned about the burden of Brussels bureaucracy, several thousand European scientists signed a petition this year (Trust Researchers - A declaration to the attention of the European Council and Parliament) calling for the framework to be "based on mutual trust and responsible partnering". Some now fear that the fraud could hamper efforts to cut red tape. Europe tackles huge fraud : Nature News

Rumor has it that only 6% of the crooks were Republicans…..

And….

“The strange part of this story is that it offers no details about what specific areas of government research funding were pilfered, or what "results" may have come of the fraudulent research projects they supported. Could it have been in the climate science domain, where the most government research money seems to be sloshing around? We know that there has been organized fraud in the European carbon trading market. Trading had to be halted back in January when it was discovered that millions of dollars of carbon allowances had been stolen and cashed on the spot market, so this wouldn't be the first time that organized crime had fixed on the climate circus as an easy mark. And one of the overlooked e-mails in the "Climategate" scandal involving the East Anglia University Climate Research Unit two years ago was a message from one of the scientists suggesting that a particular grant be routed through a Russian organization as a means of tax evasion.” Doing Advance Work: EU gave $72 million taxpayer dollars for fake 'science' research grants-Nature Magazine

'Scientists' are....???

And….

And one of the overlooked e-mails in the “Climategate” scandal involving the East Anglia University Climate Research Unit two years ago was a message from one of the scientists suggesting that a particular grant be routed through a Russian organization as a means of tax evasion.
Seems like this story needs some follow up. What

So, so some 'scientists' cheat?

And what is it they cheat about?
Clearly this is about "businessmen" and NOT scientists. Hilarious.

Especially because Republicans trust businessmen above all others.
Are you trying to claim scientists are not human?
Are you saying only businessmen are human?
 

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