How Do You See God?

[Meriweather]

Our reward may not be in this world, but if He’s not going to help the physical concerns of His followers, I don’t believe He can call Himself a good, caring, kind or loving God.

We have talked before. Again my condolences on your father. Always loved the song Everything I Own by Bread which was about his dad.

A long time ago a friend of mine reminded me of that sage quote that we are not physical people striving for a spiritual experience, but a spiritual people having a physical experience. That experience includes the very bad along with the very good.

Ever teach a child to pray for God to heal a runny nose, a sore throat, a scab? A great lesson to teach a child because they will observe nothing instantly happens. A lesson in that our bodies are wonderfully made (or alternately, wondrously developed/evolved). Healing takes time, almost never happens instantly.

God (or nature) works slowly, gently over time--not with the instant magic of a genie. In the physical world, there are some injuries/illnesses beyond healing--a hard fact of our existence. God is present to help our spirits through these times of suffering--and we will all suffer. The question is not "Will we?" but "How will we?" These are our dark valleys, where many of us look to the Lord for shepherding. He is present. He does care.

 

[Meriweather]

I walked away from the church on August 22, 2001. I avoid anything “churchy” at this point.

St. Teresa of Avila (1500s) wrote the Interior Castle. She likened our spiritual journey as moving through the many rooms and the many levels of a castle. Even in the 1500s it was apparent that Church could usually bring most of us as far as the foyer (a lot to do there, which the Church did well enough), but further exploration is up to us.

Church is fine, no reason to avoid it, but I think we do well to recognize its limitations and go with the mind of stepping beyond the foyer.

 

[Anathema]

A long time ago a friend of mine reminded me of that sage quote that we are not physical people striving for a spiritual experience, but a spiritual people having a physical experience. That experience includes the very bad along with the very good

Definitely. Your friend is absolutely correct. The problem is that these churches teach that their God will be there to help when the shot hits the fan in the physical world too. Yet I have seen this to be completely untrue. That’s when I went looking for the answer to my question and found that The Deity not only doesn’t want to help us on a daily basis, but created this world specifically to make us suffer.

God (or nature) works slowly, gently over time--not with the instant magic of a genie. In the physical world, there are some injuries/illnesses beyond healing--a hard fact of our existence. God is present to help our spirits through these times of suffering--and we will all suffer. The question is not "Will we?" but "How will we?" These are our dark valleys, where many of us look to the Lord for shepherding. He is present. He does care

Experiences may vary. No guarantees of service in all areas

 

[Anathema]

St. Teresa of Avila (1500s) wrote the Interior Castle. She likened our spiritual journey as moving through the many rooms and the many levels of a castle. Even in the 1500s it was apparent that Church could usually bring most of us as far as the foyer (a lot to do there, which the Church did well enough), but further exploration is up to us.

Church is fine, no reason to avoid it, but I think we do well to recognize its limitations and go with the mind of stepping beyond the foyer

I spent many years in the back hallways and secret passages of the castle called the Lutheran Church. You literally can’t spit in my family without hitting a church worker, up to and including clergy. I was deeply involved in the church myself for almost 24 years. There is nothing left for me there.

 

[Meriweather]

Definitely. Your friend is absolutely correct. The problem is that these churches teach that their God will be there to help when the shot hits the fan in the physical world too. Yet I have seen this to be completely untrue. That’s when I went looking for the answer to my question and found that The Deity not only doesn’t want to help us on a daily basis, but created this world specifically to make us suffer.

I completely understand. As a child who believed in God and practiced what I heard, I learned at a very young age that God and prayer had no effect on disease and pain. I also learned (and I tried mightily) that faith could not move mountains. At a fairly young age I did have an experience that sealed my belief in God and that He cares deeply. It also puzzled me. Why respond in a minor way to me when there were all those starving children in Africa?

So I get it completely when people become disillusioned with religion and discover they have no belief in God. It took an entire childhood (plus) to begin to comprehend that God works on an entirely different level with a disparate purpose from which we are fully able to comprehend.

 

[Likkmee]

God is love, a pure love.

Except for that one time

 

[Meriweather]

Experiences may vary. No guarantees of service in all areas

Perhaps...yet consider this. At one point in time I was prayerfully asking for the help I know God can give. Nothing...nothing...nothing...four years passed and then it happened. In hindsight I could see how God was working gently, precisely all throughout those four years. There were steps that needed to be taken. Four years. That is how God works--not all in an instant. (I did persist in prayer.)

 

[Meriweather]

Except for that one time

Perhaps the story isn't all that some imagine it is.

 

[cnm]

 

[Blues Man]

Sorry, no. You are not a child of God until you have the Holy Spirit. You are God's CREATION but not His child. Satan is His CREATION. He is not His child

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. ... He was a murderer from the beginning, anddoes not stand in the truth

If god created everyone then everyone is his child.

 

[ding]

If god created everyone then everyone is his child.

No. Creatures. Everyone is God's creatures. We have inalienable rights for no other reason than we are God's creatures.

 

[ding]

God is nature.

Nature is God.

That's called pantheism.

The painter cannot be the painting.

 

[Blues Man]

No. Creatures. Everyone is God's creatures. We have inalienable rights for no other reason than we are God's creatures.

We have inalienable rights because we as a people decided to base a governmental philosophy on that premise.

And if all creatures have inalienable rights why do you kill animals for food?

 

[ding]

We have inalienable rights because we as a people decided to base a governmental philosophy on that premise.

And if all creatures have inalienable rights why do you kill animals for food?

Not according to the founding fathers. According to the founding fathers we have inalienable rights for no other reason than we are God's creatures.

They also believed that we have a duty and an obligation to the Creator. That we could forfeit our inalienable rights.

https://scholarlycommons.law.wlu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3506&context=wlulr

 

[Blues Man]

Not according to the founding fathers. According to the founding fathers we have inalienable rights for no other reason than we are God's creatures.

They also believed that we have a duty and an obligation to the Creator. That we could forfeit our inalienable rights.

https://scholarlycommons.law.wlu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3506&context=wlulr

The founding fathers were products of their time.

So it makes sense that most of them held the societal concepts of god and religion that were prevalent at the time.

But times change and with them beliefs. I can believe that people have inalienable rights simply because they are people I don't need to think a god is responsible for those rights.

 

[ding]

The founding fathers were products of their time.

So it makes sense that most of them held the societal concepts of god and religion that were prevalent at the time.

But times change and with them beliefs. I can believe that people have inalienable rights simply because they are people I don't need to think a god is responsible for those rights.

Truth never changes.

The Virginia Founding Fathers were in substantial agreement that the ultimate source of our natural rights was our Creator. Men "are endowed by their Creator" with inherent and inalienable rights, said Thomas Jefferson in the memorable language of the Declaration of Independence.14 Earlier Jefferson had written in his Summary View that "the God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time."' 5 We have natural rights of the intellect, he indicated, "because Almighty God hath created the mind free . .. "16 Speaking of the natural right of expatriation, Jefferson said in the Summary View: "The evidence of this natural right, like that of our right to life, liberty, the use of our faculties, the pursuit of happiness, is not left to the feeble and sophistical investigations of reason, but is impressed on the sense of every man. We do not claim these under the charters of kings or legislators, but under the King of kings."' 7 In his Notes on Virginia, Jefferson wrote: "And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?"18 Speaking there of our natural rights, he concluded: "We are answerable for them to our God."' 9 It was in the Summary View in which Jefferson asserted that Parliament had no power to encroach "upon those rights which God and the laws have given equally and independently to all."20 Later in life Jefferson wrote that we must follow "those moral rules which the Author of our being has implanted in man as the law of his nature to govern him in his associated, as well as individual character."21 That the natural rights of man came from God, in Jefferson's belief, was beyond doubt.​

​

https://scholarlycommons.law.wlu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3506&context=wlulr

 

[Blues Man]

Truth never changes.

The Virginia Founding Fathers were in substantial agreement that the ultimate source of our natural rights was our Creator. Men "are endowed by their Creator" with inherent and inalienable rights, said Thomas Jefferson in the memorable language of the Declaration of Independence.14 Earlier Jefferson had written in his Summary View that "the God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time."' 5 We have natural rights of the intellect, he indicated, "because Almighty God hath created the mind free . .. "16 Speaking of the natural right of expatriation, Jefferson said in the Summary View: "The evidence of this natural right, like that of our right to life, liberty, the use of our faculties, the pursuit of happiness, is not left to the feeble and sophistical investigations of reason, but is impressed on the sense of every man. We do not claim these under the charters of kings or legislators, but under the King of kings."' 7 In his Notes on Virginia, Jefferson wrote: "And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?"18 Speaking there of our natural rights, he concluded: "We are answerable for them to our God."' 9 It was in the Summary View in which Jefferson asserted that Parliament had no power to encroach "upon those rights which God and the laws have given equally and independently to all."20 Later in life Jefferson wrote that we must follow "those moral rules which the Author of our being has implanted in man as the law of his nature to govern him in his associated, as well as individual character."21 That the natural rights of man came from God, in Jefferson's belief, was beyond doubt.

There is no proof that the existence of gods is true or not.

 

[Moonglow]

God is just another human construct to make us believe we are concentric to the universe.

 

[ding]

There is no proof that the existence of gods is true or not.

Not for gods. Polytheism died 6,000 years ago. Creation itself is the evidence for a Creator.

 

[Blues Man]

Not for gods. Polytheism died 6,000 years ago. Creation itself is the evidence for a Creator.

is that creator the same god in your bible? Or is it just a probability wave?